(08-24-2018 09:22 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-24-2018 07:12 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  OO, please restate what I’ve actually said about my thoughts on worker visas. I think when you do that you’ll realize that at least your last two posts are arguing against a position I haven’t taken. My goal is to make legal immigration across the border easier for potential workers because of an increase in worker visas/ease of applying for them. Currently, employers need to initiate the H-2A visa process, which poses obvious hurdles to places like farms that use illegal immigrant immigrants. So I’ll repeat my stance again, I want better legal means that allow immigrants looking for work to immigrate for work, coupled with proven tracking methods.

And if you send me an article that provides expert opinion that states that more strict immigration enforcement, a process that makes it more difficult to cross the border or reduces the number of slots available for immigrants, actually reduces illegal immigration, then I’ll be interested in it. I generally read many of the articles Tanq posts when we have debated Trump issues, regardless of their source. It’s good to understand what information is informing others.

And OO, I didn’t call you racist.

This is the phrase I found to be hinting that I am racist:

But you are relying on your Trump-esque gut to assume the worst about these people and their intentions,

As Owl 69 says, I am partial Hispanic heritage, and partial seems to be enough these days. I honor all my heritages, the primary ones being Spain, Germany, and England. I was born on the border and raised there until age 11, in one of the poorest and most Hispanic cities in the US. I have dozens of cousins on both sides of the river, both nationalities.(One of my aunts married a Mexican, my grandmother had 8 siblings, seven married Mexican or Mexican-American). Among them are a Federal judge, a doctor, several attorneys, several felons, a couple of deadbeats, and so on. I am well acquainted with the breadth and depth of hispanics, and find them much like any group of people in the world - some good ones, some bad ones, some inbetween ones.

As an adult, I was involved in the importing business and spent much of my time in Mexico. I worked in the big cities, like Chihuahua and Juarez and Monterrey. I also worked in the small villages and settlements. One place I went, my supplier's phone number was 2. Just the one digit. 1 belonged to the Chief of police, of course.

Then you go and tell me I am assuming the worst about "these people". Maybe I am just hearing a dog whistle, but if I am you are blowing it.

Now let's forget this. I assume you did not mean to call me a racist, and you can assume I took no offense.

I get tired of people with little or no experience of the border or Mexico telling me what "those people" are like. I know. A similar situation would be some lily white reformer who lives in an all white gated community on a hill outside of town telling people what inner city black people are like and what to do about them.

I have zero quarrel with the idea of guest workers or other special worker visas, but they have to be part of a framework of strict enforcement. A guest worker visa should require some screening, which can only be done by enforcing an application process. Screening for what? Criminal backgrounds, first. Second, the ability to work in some way to support themselves. Third, the likelihood of them going back at the end of their term, or reapplying to extend. There has to a mechanism for enforcing the stays. Enforcement is what many of the left have a problem with.

Not everyone who wades the river is prepared to thrive here, or even survive. I knew a woman who lived in a cave, and had no knowledge of how to use a telephone or a toilet. She came up north, but could not cope. I want people here who can add to the country. If they want to be roofers and they have a roofing job lined up, fine. If they are just going to wander until they find a temp job moving stuff from place to place, not so much. If they cannot read in either language(yes, have met those, too), not so much.

You say they are refugees from violence and poverty. I could say the same thing of people wanting to get out of Chicago's South Side. why not take care of our own refugees first?

Many references are made to the 18th and 19th centuries, when all one needed to immigrate was a boat ticket. Lots of people came over. some did very well for themselves and this country. Some descended into crime and violence. Seems like the latter group is forgotten whenever a discussion of immigration comes up.

Go in peace, my friend.

OO, I called something you said Trump-esque because you literally said:

"The people you want to allow to enter unimpeded and unknown to us are the dregs of Mexico."

That's pretty darn similar to Trump saying Mexico is not sending its best, which is why I called it Trump-esque. Do you disagree with that?

And I didn't call you a racist, and sorry you felt that I implied that. I just pointed out that you pretty much parroted a talking point that Trump has when discussing illegal immigrants from Mexico.

But your bolded paragraph is where I think we've come to an impasse. You seem to be arguing with "the left" and not with me. Interpreting the points I'm raising through a lens that turns me into a caricature of the left that you hold. So said that "enforcement is what many of the left have a problem with," yet I did not argue for less enforcement. I argued for a revision to our current worker visa program to make the application easier to navigate. For starters, you could change it so that the employer does not have to be the one sponsoring an individual, but allow migrants to do so. Then put them through a screening process like you mention. I've never suggested otherwise, yet you act like I have.