(02-28-2018 12:59 AM)mrbig Wrote:  

(02-27-2018 06:50 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Present your case.

So, in that vein, tell me what exactly is so heinous about the June 9th meeting in Trump tower. A Russian met with Trump,Jr. under false pretenses, and was dismissed summarily. How is that collusion, or treason, or whatever people is trying to make of it? So he wanted dirt on Hillary. Didn't they want dirt on Trump? Isn't that why they hired Steele to get it from RUSSIANS? WHAT IS WRONG WITH WANTING DIRT ON THE OTHER SIDE, AS LONG AS IT IS TRUE AND NOT MADE UP STUFF? So why do the lefties keep harping on that meeting? Especially in the light of the Clinton campaign doing even worse, actually paying for made up stuff from Russians instead of dismissing them as TJ did? What did TJ do wrong in that meeting?

Nothing wrong for wanting dirt on the other side, the problem is how you get the dirt and who you get the dirt from. Some things are legal, some things aren't. You can't break-and-enter, you can't hack the other side, you can't get things from foreign nationals, etc.

I'll try to keep it short. As I quoted in post #2745:

Quote:Federal law prohibits a foreign national from giving anything of value to a campaign engaged in a U.S. election. It’s also a crime to solicit a foreign national to do so, or even to "knowingly provide substantial assistance" in receiving something of value.

While illegal foreign contributions typically take the form of money, legal experts told us it’s possible a court could find that "information" satisfies the legal requirement if it’s considered valuable to a campaign.

Trump Jr. gets email saying that the Russian government has damaging information on Hillary Clinton. Not his fault they sent him the email, so no problem. But when he agrees to the meeting, then he (and Kushner and Manafort, if they knew that a foreign national was offering "something of value" to the Trump campaign) start getting close to the line of what is illegal. If the same meeting had been with US Citizens with the same information, maybe no problem (putting aside the issue of whether the information was illegally obtained, which would maybe still make it a crime). But from agents for a foreign government? Problem. So then you need to evaluate whether that "something of value" was accepted (if so, "TJ" would have conspiracy issues even though the crime itself would be against the foreign nationals) or whether he solicited them (which he has denied). I don't think there is enough public info to charge anyone, but it is certainly worthy of investigation (IMO). And the changing of stories going through the White House brings in potential obstruction of justice issues. So again, plenty to investigate, even if there are not ultimately charges.

Thanks for the explanation.

Did the email identify her as an "agent of a foreign government"? Or is every Russian considered an agent of a foreign government?

How does this imply collusion?

Do the layers of separation in the Clinton's campaign of hiring a company to hire a Brit to ask the Russians for dirt absolve them? It seems the Clinton campaign was cagier about getting their russian dirt than was the Trump campaign. I would expect the professional politicians to know better how to evade the safeguards than the amateurs.

Quote:

(02-27-2018 06:50 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Lying or omitting about meeting with foreign government actors? Like I said, I cannot remember how many times I went to Mexico, or when or who I spoke to,, and so I better just stay away from government forms. I cannot even tell you the year I last went out of the country, and I dadgum sure cannot tell the date of the last phone call.

But if I did fill out those forms, and forgot a trip or a phone call or got a date wrong, dies that mean I am in collusion with Mexico? Heck I could not tell you what I had for breakfast yesterday for sure. But I guess you got me. I went to mexico, had dinner with some, shook hands with some, and cannot confirm the dates and times. Pretty suspicious. Leavenworth, here I come.

As for the Russian lady I have met twice, I cannot give you dates and times, and you have only my word that I did not pass anything under the table to her. I don't remember her name. Really. The other Russian, the guy sitting next to me at a poker tournament at the Mirage, I have no idea what date that was other than June 2017.

edit; F0orgot the Russian taxi cab driver. really, I wasn't trying to hide that contact. Damn fool couldn't find my hotel anyway. i guess to a Russian spy, Harrah's sounds like Paris.

All these itsy-bitsy things - perfectly normal handshakes with ambassadors at dinners , etc. - being seen as nefarious contacts is exactly why I think this investigation is built on a web of innuendo and imagination. Not facts, not reasonable inferences. A classic witch hunt. Feel free to reasonably explain to me why they are so damning.

If you get the kind of job that requires gathering this information, then you sit down and spend a shitload of time getting the stuff as straight as you can. When you don't know exact dates, you make sure and provide the information you do have and estimate everything else. I suggest you not apply for any of these types of jobs. Your flippant attitude will get you in serious trouble. As Hillary Clinton's email security is a serious issue, so is failing to disclose foreign travel and meetings with certain kinds of foreign nationals (I doubt sitting next to someone at a bar or a cab driver counts).

Well, if I were a spy, cab driver would be a great cover. Pick up a guy, drop him off ten minutes later, nobody knows what was said or passed in the cab...


Flippant attitude? I have been traveling to Mexico since I was a week old, (now 72)
and have made thousands, maybe tens of thousands (cannot quantify it closer than that) trips across the border, for business and social purposes. I flew privately, I flew commercially, I drove, and sometimes my companions were mexican citizens. Some lasted two hours, some several weeks. I cannot begin to list those trips, nor to list the individuals I met with, some of whom were in fact government officials. Sometimes I took them to dinner, sometimes they took me. Once I went deep sea fishing. I also bought Mexican silver and gold coins and brought them back, openly and legally through customs, but I bet that could get stretched into money laundering by a bright attorney.

so you are right, as you so reasonably and unflippantly said, I should not apply for those kinds of jobs. The point I have been trying to make to you et al is that just because one forgets a trip or a meeting, or gets the dates wrong, or even forgets the names, it does not show collusion. Isn't that what the probe is about, collusion, or is it just a memory test?

For that matter, I cannot give you the dates I was in Canada or any other foreign country, or name the people I spoke to. But if you can, more power to to you.

Everybody, can you list all the people you spoke to in Cancun or St. Maarten?