(02-24-2018 11:39 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(02-24-2018 11:16 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  

(02-22-2018 12:32 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  FTR, I do not oppose gay marriage, and did not oppose it 20 years ago. I also am fine with plural marriage, and any kind of marriage that does not involve inanimate objects or animals. I really don't care about marriage. If nobody married, that would be fine with me. If you and your special other(s) of whatever sex, or religion want make your own arrangement, fine with me. NOMB.

But my personal beliefs notwithstanding, I think you are succumbing to a stereotype when you think that so many people on the right are single issue voters and that issue is gay marriage. Just not that big a deal to most people, left or right. Well, it is a big deal to some on the left, like yourself. Seems to be a bit of a litmus test for you. You keep bringing it up like it is some sort of identifier of good people and bad, defined by their acceptance of GM.

I did not vote for Trump. But I don't give much of a damn about his sleeping with playboy models, etc. I bet you didn't care much for similar behavior from Democrats (Kennedy, Kennedy, Clinton, Weiner, Spitzer, Edwards, yada yada yada), but continued to vote your straight tickets. If not, your defections were probably not because of their lack of morals. Maybe because the were weak on guns or gay marriage. How you ever voted against a Democrat on the basis of morals? If so, who?

I think you make a mistake when you characterize the choice many religious people made in 2016. It was not so much FOR a philandering egotist, as it was AGAINST the party of pro-choice, or as they see it, murdering children. Of course, there was much more contributing to that upset - a desire for real change, a hope that a change in leadership would bring about real change in America. Even you must acknowledge that Hillary was the "More of the Same" candidate. I can hardly blame the desire to avoid more of the same on hating gay marriage.

My original response was to your statement: "You got to remember, Obama and Hillary are pro-abortion, pro gay marriage, etc. None of the three are strong Christians. " You lumped the gay marriage and abortion together.

FTR, I agree with your clarified statement that abortion has a lot more single issue voters on the right than gay marriage. And I understand and respect that position a lot more than opposition to gay marriage and LBGT rights. (Though I do think for a subset controlling women is as important to them as abortion, but that's a different subject.)

I think a disconnect here is that many people, myself included, think Trump repeatedly and intentionally crossed over the line into blatant racism and bigotry and other behavior that should be disqualifying regardless of ideology or party. And yes, racism and bigotry are a litmus test for me. Sorry, that's how my Christian, Republican parents raised me. (They both became independents in recent years due to those values. My dad has passed, but I am 100% sure he would be disgusted by Trump.)

I'll grant you that in the general there were people who voted for him despite these things, not because of them. However, 1) as I said above, that is not acceptable to me. His history of racism and bigotry, and of emphasizing that in his campaign, should have been disqualifying. And 2) in the primary, almost all the preliminary research has shown that Trump voters were supporting him because of his racial and authoritarian attitudes.

I don't expect this to convince you, just trying to explain my feelings on the matter...

I doubt strongly that almost all the voters supporting him did so for racist reasons. I think that just smacks of the myth that that Republicans by and large are racist. Why do you believe that?

I think many more supported him because of his statements on taxes, jobs, international trade, foreign affairs, etc.

Well, I did say I didn't expect to convince you, didn't I? LOL

To be clear I said (or was trying to say) that I think I lot of people in the general election voted for him despite his character flaws. Whereas in the primary people supporting him, as opposed to, say Jeb Bush or Kasich, were much more likely to have high levels of racial resentment and/or authoritarian attitudes and voted for him *because* of the same things that made others hold their nose when voting for him in the general election. I base that on numerous analysis of the voting data done by stats people and political scientists. I'll try and dig some up later.

(02-24-2018 11:39 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I have heard your litany of so-called racist remarks by Trump, and am unimpressed. I think people can put the spin on them they want, and the left wants to spin them as racist. In any event, he was still running against Hillary.

I will take one example. I am of mixed heritage with family both north and south of the Rio Grande, and I support a stronger immigration policy and a tighter border, but not a wall, as do many of my cousins. Not going to get that from thenDemocrats. so who is left? the guy who said they are rapists? Well, some doubtless are. Most are not, although other crimes may well lie within their scope, such as income tax evasion or failure to register. Should he have parsed his words better? surely. Still, who do I like better, the guy who will at least give it his attention or the woman who will do exactly the wrong thing? If wanting a stronger border is racist, then you must believe I am racist against myself and my family. All this from that one remark.

It does not surprise me that a person who is so anti racist as you should feel no compunction at designating 25% of our population as “deplorable”. I just think that you are far wrong.

Well, again, I don't expect to convince you. If Trump's "rapists" remark had been an isolated gaffe, that would be one thing, but it set a pattern and tone for him, one that reflected his attitudes before his campaign, as well.* Again, he was condemned for racism by the previous Republican nominee. Both living Republican ex-presidents refused to vote for him. That is not normal. He has retweeted intentionally inflammatory falsehoods from American white supremacists and British neo-Nazis. Why is the POTUS even reading tweets from those sources?


*Hell, it was just yesterday (?) he read The Snake and applied it to immigrants. (Not illegal immigrants, immigrants.) He even said "If you say isn’t that terrible, who cares," indicating that he knew people would find it offensive and reveling in it.