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The Big East basketball schools are crazy if they approve Temple’s Big East membershi
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johnbragg Offline
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Post: #1
The Big East basketball schools are crazy if they approve Temple’s Big East membershi
1. THE INEVITABLE FUTURE--The Shadow of the Power Conferences

A. No more separation between ACC-Big East and Other Power Conferences in basketball.
Losing 3-4 annual tournament teams and adding 2 means that the Big East won’t be No. 1 in tournament bids every year. The Big East, ACC, Big 10, Big 12 and SEC will all be bunched up with 6-8 bids a year. Which takes away the Big East's main claim to supremacy.

B. Big 10, SEC, PAC-10 schools with $20M TV contracts, Big 12 $15M.
We're already seeing the impact of that money in football. Mike Leach getting $2M to coach Washington State. Sooner or later, we're going to see some of that money spent on the basketball side. The pay scale for power-conference basketball coaches will go up. Combine that with the practice abd training facilities that football will pay for, but all athletes will benefit from.

C. Big East football will continue to be a drag on the Big East brand.
Whether or not the New Big East is better in football than the old, it's clearly behind the power conferences. This matters more to recruits than to the TV audience. Teenagers care about what their friends think and say. Every time kids talk football, and a teammate says “Man, Big East is some trash,” the chances of a Big East basketball coach recruiting that kid goes down .0001. Every time sports discussion turns to whether the Big East is a mid-major, it hurts the Big East's brand.

2. THE EVITABLE FUTURE. Life in the New Hybrid Big East.
A. Association with more mediocre-to-poor basketball schools further damages Big East BB brand. Once the Big East can no longer claim to be the premier basketball conference, a bad team in the Big East is just like a bad team in the Big 10 or SEC, just with less money and poorer practice facilities. And if the 18-team Big East is sending 7-8 teams to the tournament, that means that there are 10-11 teams not going to the tournament, while the power conferences only have 6 or 7. That makes it harder for programs in a down period to climb back up, and makes Big East coaching opportunities less attractive than power conference opportunities.

B. Temple’s access to Big East could easily push Villanova into irrelevance. In basketball, one recruit a year is a huge difference. Say Penn State hires Jay Wright for big money, Villanova more than likely joins St Johns, DePaul, Providence, Seton Hall as drags on the conference. As the $15M-$20M TV checks roll in, does Marquette still have a financial advantage when a Big 12 or SEC school calls Buzz Williams?

C. All-sports schools notice that most of the “basketball schools” aren’t performing in basketball. St Johns, DePaul, Providence, Seton Hall, cointinue to not make the tournament regularly, possibly joined by Villanova and/or Marquette. USF, Houston, UCF, SMU, Memphis have no longstanding ties to the basketball schools. Temple isn’t likely to be sympathetic to Villanova, or sentimental about Seton Hall, Providence, or DePaul.

So why are these schools sharing the basketball checks earned by UConn, Memphis, Temple, plus Notre Dame? Why do they get half the votes on conference governance? Sooner or later, they won’t. Next contract cycle, if only 2 or 3 of the basketball schools are making the tournament every year, the Coast-to-Coast Conference says goodbye to the ruined Big East brand.

3. THE ALTERNATE FUTURE—Taking Our Conference Back.
"The Big East is the basketball power conference where basketball matters."
Back to basics. Back to the future. Home-and-home series between Georgetown, Xavier, St Johns, Villanova, Providence, Marquette, Dayton, Seton Hall. They can’t market that in a conference that has so obviously remade itself in the name of football, while failing to be more than a football mid-major.

If a recruit picks Marquette over Wisconsin, he never has to worry about coming out of the athletic dorm and having some girl ask “So, are you on the football team?” Seton Hall’s ticket office doesn’t have to package tickets to the Georgetown game with tickets to see UCF, SMU and Providence. The conference office can focus on developing and promoting the basketball league instead of managing tensions and balancing conflicting interests.

It is time for the basketball schools to shut down the football conference before it is too late. If three Catholic schools vote with Villanova, Temple’s invitation doesn’t have the a 3 /4 majority.

The Catholic League Basketball TV package.
The current Big East has a 144-game league schedule, with at least 75 (52%) on national TV. 75 games / 16 teams = 4.7 TV checks per school. http://www.bigeast.org/News/tabid/435/Ar...edule.aspx
The “Catholic League” Big East of Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, Seton Hall, Depaul, Providence, St Johns plus Xavier and Dayton would have 5 2011 tournament teams out of 9, for a league schedule of 72 games, with 80% having at least one tournament team. Put 50% of those games on TV, that’s 36 games. 36/9 = 4 TV checks per school. That’s less, but if you keep Notre Dame (and I don’t think Notre Dame has many options) that’s 90 games, 45 on TV, 4.5 TV checks per school.
(This post was last modified: 02-23-2012 10:52 AM by johnbragg.)
02-23-2012 10:48 AM
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Shannon Panther Offline
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RE: The Big East basketball schools are crazy if they approve Temple’s Big East membershi
Wow, I could spend hours refuting most of the "logic" in this thread, but I have other things to do. Let's just say I don't agree. If the BB schools really think like this, in the words of Dirty Harry Callahan, "Go ahead, make my day".
02-23-2012 10:57 AM
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NJRedMan Offline
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RE: The Big East basketball schools are crazy if they approve Temple’s Big East membershi
This is just dribble. You lost all credibility when you said that's it's bad for the big east after losing 3-4 BBall powers to add 2 more. Really? So they are better off just losing 3-4 teams and doing nothing?

A BBall player choses Marquette over Wisconsin and has to worry about a chick asking if he plays FB?

A BBall player won't want to play BBall in the big east because of the FB reputation? You do know that every kid in the country knows the big east is the best BBall league right?

I couldn't even get to the end of this post because it made no sense.
(This post was last modified: 02-23-2012 11:00 AM by NJRedMan.)
02-23-2012 10:59 AM
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johnbragg Offline
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RE: The Big East basketball schools are crazy if they approve Temple’s Big East membershi
(02-23-2012 10:59 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  This is just dribble. You lost all credibility when you said that's it's bad for the big east after losing 3-4 BBall powers to add 2 more. Really? So they are better off just losing 3-4 teams and doing nothing?

A BBall player choses Marquette over Wisconsin and has to worry about a chick asking if he plays FB?

A BBall player won't want to play BBall in the big east because of the FB reputation? You do know that every kid in the country knows the big east is the best BBall league right?

I couldn't even get to the end of this post because it made no sense.

Not that adding 2 more is a bad idea. Just that 2 is not as many as 3-4.

Baller goes to Wisconsin, chick is going to assume he plays FB. REcruits are 16-17 year old kids.

After the additions and subtractions, Big East won't be "the best league". The league with Syracuse and Georgetown and Louisville and UConn is the best b-ball league in the nation. But that league won't be there.

The new Big East will be one of 4-5-6 good leagues, but no better than the SEC or Big 12 or Big 10 in hoops.
02-23-2012 11:04 AM
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stever20 Offline
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RE: The Big East basketball schools are crazy if they approve Temple’s Big East membershi
The conference you mention...... Would not be a top 6 league.. First off as you stated- Notre Dame would NOT be a part of it....

Villanova 16 units(4 expire this year)
G'Town 12 units(3 expire this year, 5 next year)
Marquette 10 units
Seton Hall 1 unit
St John's 1 unit
DePaul, Providence 0 units
Xavier 14 units
Dayton 0 units

That's 54 units.

The current big 5 confernces(not including Big East) all have at least 67 units.

The football conference would have 40 units without doing anything. And, you know they woudl do something.

If you look next year-
Hoops- 44 units
fb- 32 units
plus what happens this year. hoops would have 3 locks in Marquette, Georgetown, and Seton Hall- plus possible Xavier(not sure who your 5th team is). FB would have lock in Temple, plus UConn, Memphis, USF, UCF, Cincy all bubble teams.

Bottom line- if hoops did split- and trust me they aren't- hoops would be at BEST like the WCC. And, that's not something that the hoops schools are willing to do.
02-23-2012 11:05 AM
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CardFan1 Offline
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Post: #6
RE: The Big East basketball schools are crazy if they approve Temple’s Big East membershi
Outside of Georgetown and Marquette the rest of the BB only schools are already irrelevant. Not sure at this stage of the game that can be fixed ever again.
02-23-2012 11:07 AM
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johnbragg Offline
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Post: #7
RE: The Big East basketball schools are crazy if they approve Temple’s Big East membershi
(02-23-2012 11:07 AM)CardFan1 Wrote:  Outside of Georgetown and Marquette the rest of the BB only schools are already irrelevant. Not sure at this stage of the game that can be fixed ever again.

It certainly won't be fixed by Villanova sharing the spotlight with Temple, and by sharing a conference with UCF, SMU, USF, Rutgers and Houston.
02-23-2012 11:11 AM
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stever20 Offline
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RE: The Big East basketball schools are crazy if they approve Temple’s Big East membershi
(02-23-2012 11:04 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(02-23-2012 10:59 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  This is just dribble. You lost all credibility when you said that's it's bad for the big east after losing 3-4 BBall powers to add 2 more. Really? So they are better off just losing 3-4 teams and doing nothing?

A BBall player choses Marquette over Wisconsin and has to worry about a chick asking if he plays FB?

A BBall player won't want to play BBall in the big east because of the FB reputation? You do know that every kid in the country knows the big east is the best BBall league right?

I couldn't even get to the end of this post because it made no sense.

Not that adding 2 more is a bad idea. Just that 2 is not as many as 3-4.

Baller goes to Wisconsin, chick is going to assume he plays FB. REcruits are 16-17 year old kids.

After the additions and subtractions, Big East won't be "the best league". The league with Syracuse and Georgetown and Louisville and UConn is the best b-ball league in the nation. But that league won't be there.

The new Big East will be one of 4-5-6 good leagues, but no better than the SEC or Big 12 or Big 10 in hoops.

It would be close- but still Big East would be #1. Last 6 years-
Big East new- 98 units
ACC new- 97 units
SEC new- 86 units
Big Ten- 75 units
Big 12 new- 72 units
Pac 12- 68 units

even if Louisville leaves, would still be tied for #2.
02-23-2012 11:11 AM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #9
RE: The Big East basketball schools are crazy if they approve Temple’s Big East membershi
(02-23-2012 11:11 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(02-23-2012 11:07 AM)CardFan1 Wrote:  Outside of Georgetown and Marquette the rest of the BB only schools are already irrelevant. Not sure at this stage of the game that can be fixed ever again.

It certainly won't be fixed by Villanova sharing the spotlight with Temple, and by sharing a conference with UCF, SMU, USF, Rutgers and Houston.

UCF and USF could EASILY make the tournament this year so that's just awful..
02-23-2012 11:13 AM
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brista21 Offline
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RE: The Big East basketball schools are crazy if they approve Temple’s Big East membershi
(02-23-2012 11:11 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(02-23-2012 11:07 AM)CardFan1 Wrote:  Outside of Georgetown and Marquette the rest of the BB only schools are already irrelevant. Not sure at this stage of the game that can be fixed ever again.

It certainly won't be fixed by Villanova sharing the spotlight with Temple, and by sharing a conference with UCF, SMU, USF, Rutgers and Houston.

You just keep reminding me why I hate St. Johns and also frankly Villanova.
02-23-2012 11:16 AM
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stever20 Offline
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RE: The Big East basketball schools are crazy if they approve Temple’s Big East membershi
I think also- if Louisville leaves, you could see Xavier brought in...

Football- 12 teams
Basketball-18 teams

Xavier actually has 2 more units than Louisville does- so the conference would be back to #1 ahead of the ACC the last 6 years.
02-23-2012 11:22 AM
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bitcruncher Offline
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RE: The Big East basketball schools are crazy if they approve Temple’s Big East membershi
(02-23-2012 11:11 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(02-23-2012 11:07 AM)CardFan1 Wrote:  Outside of Georgetown and Marquette the rest of the BB only schools are already irrelevant. Not sure at this stage of the game that can be fixed ever again.
It certainly won't be fixed by Villanova sharing the spotlight with Temple, and by sharing a conference with UCF, SMU, USF, Rutgers and Houston.
This isn't smart thinking. Big 5 matchups are huge in Philly, and adding that to The BEast would be a big boost to the TV ratings in Philadelphia all season long...

IMO The BEast missed the boat long ago. There should never have been any football only members. All should have been invited as all-sports members in 1990, as Miami was...

Frankly, Villnova is cutting their own throat in their opposition towards Temple's all-sports membership. It would be good for both schools in basketball (as well as every other sport the 2 schools played in common), would generate a ton of interest in the Philadelphia area, and the city would stop and watch when these 2 played each other...
02-23-2012 11:26 AM
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johnbragg Offline
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RE: The Big East basketball schools are crazy if they approve Temple’s Big East membershi
(02-23-2012 11:22 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I think also- if Louisville leaves, you could see Xavier brought in...

Football- 12 teams
Basketball-18 teams

Xavier actually has 2 more units than Louisville does- so the conference would be back to #1 ahead of the ACC the last 6 years.

How many people, fans and even media, track units, and how many just track tournament bids? The Big East's main claim to be No. 1 is having more tournament bids every year.

Going forward, the Big East is likely to lose three regular bids and pick up 2. That moves the average from around 8 to around 7.

The ACC is picking up 2 regular bids, going from around 5 to around 7.

The SEC is picking up 2, going from around 5 to around 7.

The Big 10 is around 6.

The Big 12 is losing 2 with Missouri and A&M, but picking up WVU and probably Louisville, so say they stay around 5.

Looking a few years ahead, the Big East doesn't have a clear-cut advantage anymore. You'd expect them to be send the same number of teams to the tournament as the ACC and SEC.

And the Big East will also have more teams NOT going to the tournament. If the Big East and SEC each send 7 teams, that means that 7 SEC and 11 Big East teams don't go. SEC recruiters will be pointing that out.
(This post was last modified: 02-23-2012 11:36 AM by johnbragg.)
02-23-2012 11:35 AM
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johnbragg Offline
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RE: The Big East basketball schools are crazy if they approve Temple’s Big East membershi
(02-23-2012 11:26 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Frankly, Villnova is cutting their own throat in their opposition towards Temple's all-sports membership. It would be good for both schools in basketball (as well as every other sport the 2 schools played in common), would generate a ton of interest in the Philadelphia area, and the city would stop and watch when these 2 played each other...

That's one game a year. Balance that against the long-term decline in Villanova's recruiting position, competing against a large state school with a big alumni base and some (probably not much) football money.

Think of the advantages Villanova will have over Temple in 5 years. Can you name any?
02-23-2012 11:39 AM
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stever20 Offline
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RE: The Big East basketball schools are crazy if they approve Temple’s Big East membershi
Only about half the time the last decade has the big east been the #1 conference by itself. That's kind of cyclical.
02-23-2012 11:44 AM
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Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
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RE: The Big East basketball schools are crazy if they approve Temple’s Big East membershi
While his is a very bizarre, poorly argued post, but I do agree with the OP's premise that the football and basketball schools may be best served by divorcing themselves from each other and focusing their attention on their core athletic goals.

However if that is how they were thinking, schools like Southern Mississippi and East Carolina would have been welcomed into the fold long before schools like Memphis and Temple so I don't expect that to happen anytime soon.
02-23-2012 11:56 AM
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johnbragg Offline
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RE: The Big East basketball schools are crazy if they approve Temple’s Big East membershi
(02-23-2012 11:44 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Only about half the time the last decade has the big east been the #1 conference by itself. That's kind of cyclical.

But 5 out of 6 years, BE has been first or tied for first. And it's a lot less cyclical than Final Fours or national championships, and less esoteric than RPI.
02-23-2012 11:57 AM
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stever20 Offline
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RE: The Big East basketball schools are crazy if they approve Temple’s Big East membershi
I think you have to look at it from both sides....

Bsketball schools- they know with the football schools- their basketball is a LOT more viable nationally. Money probably is better than going it alone.
Football schools- they get the name Big East, which has cache due to the hoops. Also, keep Notre Dame- so Bowl situation is much better than otherwise. Better money for TV contract as well.
02-23-2012 11:59 AM
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stever20 Offline
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RE: The Big East basketball schools are crazy if they approve Temple’s Big East membershi
(02-23-2012 11:57 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(02-23-2012 11:44 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Only about half the time the last decade has the big east been the #1 conference by itself. That's kind of cyclical.

But 5 out of 6 years, BE has been first or tied for first. And it's a lot less cyclical than Final Fours or national championships, and less esoteric than RPI.

But hardly a clear cut #1 as you painted. Bottom line, this story would not be where it is now if the basketball schools didn't want it. That ship sailed 3 months ago with the other invites.
02-23-2012 12:00 PM
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RE: The Big East basketball schools are crazy if they approve Temple’s Big East membershi
(02-23-2012 10:48 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  1. THE INEVITABLE FUTURE--The Shadow of the Power Conferences

A. No more separation between ACC-Big East and Other Power Conferences in basketball.
Losing 3-4 annual tournament teams and adding 2 means that the Big East won’t be No. 1 in tournament bids every year.

Big East is losing 4 basketball schools?

Most know that replacing Syracuse would be tough for any conf to do...but most think with the Big East label, Memphis and Temple will be equal and/or even better than WVU and Pitt over time.

Over the last 22 seasons, WVU has been to the NCAA's 8 times...and the last time they ever won the Big East Basketball Tourn was in 1989.

Since 1983, Pitt was won the Big East Tourn just 2 times over the past 28 seasons.

It will be certainly interesting to watch what Memphis and Temple can do with the Big East Conf logo on the recruiting trail...because odds are, their programs should improve and I think over time, easily replace those basketball programs at Pitt and WVU (who had fine basketball programs too).
(This post was last modified: 02-23-2012 12:03 PM by KnightLight.)
02-23-2012 12:02 PM
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