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Obama's war on Catholics Continues
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Bull_In_Exile Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Obama's war on Catholics Continues
(02-07-2012 12:14 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  Nope; it should not be a factor, period. We are beyond the point where we should be looking at ancient superstitions to guide our healthcare decisions.

But sadly not past the point where the enlightened folks get to strip away peoples basic rights in the name of their enlightenment.
02-07-2012 12:16 PM
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wvucrazed Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Obama's war on Catholics Continues
(02-07-2012 11:40 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
Quote:How can you separate people from their beliefs or philosophy? That informs and motivates their behavior.


Because *any* type of horrid behavior can, and has been performed by people of different, or no faith.

Quote:You can tear apart what Davis said, sure. And the South was filled with preachers and Biblical "experts" who would back him up.

You can legitimately call my argument a case of no true Scotsman but that does not change the fact that the same practice (different people reading the same philosophy/faith) can draw hugely different conclusions. No matter what the philosophy.

Quote:Anything in the Bible is susceptible to differing interpretation.


As is anything in the marxist writings which can lead on one side to democratic socialist government that respects rights and on the other can lead to soviet style communism.

You had a point somewhere?

Quote:Slavery is a perfect example: you have folks who stridently believed the Bible supported their position on either side of the issue.

Again... other than picking on Christians for something that every philosophy or faith on earth has done do you have a point?

Quote:Ultimately it all comes down to an individual's interpratation of the Bible.

Again... other than picking on Christians for something that every philosophy or faith on earth has done do you have a point?

Quote:One need only look at politics today to see that folks on either side of the political equation use their interpretation of the Bible to back up their position.

Again... other than picking on Christians for something that every philosophy or faith on earth has done do you have a point?


Quote:It's the ultimate rorchsach test. You can glean from it what you want to glean from it.

Again... other than picking on Christians for something that every philosophy or faith on earth has done do you have a point?


Quote:Sorry, but bronze age folklore from thousands of years ago, that nobody has ever been able to agree on its meaning even to this day, shouldn't be used as a determining factor for what health care hospitals provide, period. The less influence it has on our society as a whole, the better off we will all be.

But that's not up to you, it should be up to those hospitals and those folks who fund them and follow "bronze age folklore"

But we're not talking about other philosophies, here. We are talking about Christianity, and whether or not it should be used to guide healthcare decisions. Considering that a) nobody can agree on what Christianity means, and that b) we should be making health care decisions based on the best science available and the needs of patients, then yeah... it's an easy call.

The Obama administration is making the right decision. War on Catholics? Maybe war on superstition that has no place in health care is a more apt description.
02-07-2012 12:16 PM
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I'mMoreAwesomeThanYou Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Obama's war on Catholics Continues
(02-07-2012 12:14 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 11:47 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 11:25 AM)wvucrazed Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 11:05 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  I have always maintained that *people*, and not their beliefs or philosophy, are the problem. For some reason leftist moonbats believe all people are good but corrupted by beliefs.
How can you separate people from their beliefs or philosophy? That informs and motivates their behavior. You can tear apart what Davis said, sure. And the South was filled with preachers and Biblical "experts" who would back him up.
Anything in the Bible is susceptible to differing interpretation. Slavery is a perfect example: you have folks who stridently believed the Bible supported their position on either side of the issue.
Ultimately it all comes down to an individual's interpratation of the Bible. One need only look at politics today to see that folks on either side of the political equation use their interpretation of the Bible to back up their position. It's the ultimate rorchsach test. You can glean from it what you want to glean from it.
Sorry, but bronze age folklore from thousands of years ago, that nobody has ever been able to agree on its meaning even to this day, shouldn't be used as a determining factor for what health care hospitals provide, period. The less influence it has on our society as a whole, the better off we will all be.

To summarize in one sentence, what you're saying is, "There are many possible interpretations, but only those that agree with me should be allowed."

Nope; it should not be a factor, period. We are beyond the point where we should be looking at ancient superstitions to guide our healthcare decisions.

See US Constitution.
02-07-2012 12:17 PM
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wvucrazed Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Obama's war on Catholics Continues
(02-07-2012 12:16 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 12:14 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  Nope; it should not be a factor, period. We are beyond the point where we should be looking at ancient superstitions to guide our healthcare decisions.

But sadly not past the point where the enlightened folks get to strip away peoples basic rights in the name of their enlightenment.

If one's devotion to ancient superstition is so strong that it prevents them from providing care as required, then nobody is forcing them to do so. If you can't bring yourself to hand out birth control as required, then get a job parking cars at a mega-Church.
02-07-2012 12:18 PM
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I'mMoreAwesomeThanYou Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Obama's war on Catholics Continues
(02-07-2012 12:16 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 11:40 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
Quote:How can you separate people from their beliefs or philosophy? That informs and motivates their behavior.


Because *any* type of horrid behavior can, and has been performed by people of different, or no faith.

Quote:You can tear apart what Davis said, sure. And the South was filled with preachers and Biblical "experts" who would back him up.

You can legitimately call my argument a case of no true Scotsman but that does not change the fact that the same practice (different people reading the same philosophy/faith) can draw hugely different conclusions. No matter what the philosophy.

Quote:Anything in the Bible is susceptible to differing interpretation.


As is anything in the marxist writings which can lead on one side to democratic socialist government that respects rights and on the other can lead to soviet style communism.

You had a point somewhere?

Quote:Slavery is a perfect example: you have folks who stridently believed the Bible supported their position on either side of the issue.

Again... other than picking on Christians for something that every philosophy or faith on earth has done do you have a point?

Quote:Ultimately it all comes down to an individual's interpratation of the Bible.

Again... other than picking on Christians for something that every philosophy or faith on earth has done do you have a point?

Quote:One need only look at politics today to see that folks on either side of the political equation use their interpretation of the Bible to back up their position.

Again... other than picking on Christians for something that every philosophy or faith on earth has done do you have a point?


Quote:It's the ultimate rorchsach test. You can glean from it what you want to glean from it.

Again... other than picking on Christians for something that every philosophy or faith on earth has done do you have a point?


Quote:Sorry, but bronze age folklore from thousands of years ago, that nobody has ever been able to agree on its meaning even to this day, shouldn't be used as a determining factor for what health care hospitals provide, period. The less influence it has on our society as a whole, the better off we will all be.

But that's not up to you, it should be up to those hospitals and those folks who fund them and follow "bronze age folklore"

But we're not talking about other philosophies, here. We are talking about Christianity, and whether or not it should be used to guide healthcare decisions. Considering that a) nobody can agree on what Christianity means, and that b) we should be making health care decisions based on the best science available and the needs of patients, then yeah... it's an easy call.

The Obama administration is making the right decision. War on Catholics? Maybe war on superstition that has no place in health care is a more apt description.

Lets apply this logic to Government.

a.) No one can agree on what their role is

b.) We let the individual choose how they are treated, then yeah...it's an easy call.
02-07-2012 12:20 PM
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wvucrazed Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Obama's war on Catholics Continues
ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  Lets apply this logic to Government.

a.) No one can agree on what their role is

b.) We let the individual choose how they are treated, then yeah...it's an easy call.

That's why we vote, and have a political system - to determine the role of government.

You don't like the Obama administration and their decisions, then by all means, work to defeat him.

Good luck with that.
(This post was last modified: 02-07-2012 12:22 PM by wvucrazed.)
02-07-2012 12:22 PM
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AtlanticLeague Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Obama's war on Catholics Continues
The fundamental question is whether or not religious organizations are exempt from the rules and regulations that are applied to non-religious organizations. The SCOTUS just unanimously declared that some rules do not apply to religious organizations. Are we just picking and choosing what rules apply?

Should it be an "all or nothing" situation? Either you have to exist in the same legislative system as everyone else, or you don't. If you opt in then you are subject to both the costs and benefits of that system. If not, then you're on your own.
02-07-2012 12:24 PM
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Post: #48
RE: Obama's war on Catholics Continues
(02-07-2012 12:16 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  But we're not talking about other philosophies, here. We are talking about Christianity, and whether or not it should be used to guide healthcare decisions.

No, thats what *youre* talking about. You've tried to bait and switch this thread. It's mindless drivel in an attempt to put up so much inflammatory material that the subject is lost.

You have moved this thread

From:
Should the government be able to tell private organizations what level of benefits they *must* provide even against their deep held reservations.

To:
Should people make health care decisions based on the Bible.

The fact these are slightly overlapping here is pure coincidence. That is why leaders of other faiths have also chimed in against this monstrous decision.

Quote:http://jpfo.org/rabbi/rabbi-defend-catholic.htm

Whether you agree or disagree with the Catholic Church’s positions on abortion, sterilization, and birth control, this draconian maneuver by the Obama administration is simply untenable. This isn’t just about the federal government vs. the Catholic Church. It is about the federal government vs. religious autonomy in America. -- Rabbi Dovid Bendory

Now you being either unwilling, or unable, to defend obamas latest micturition on the bill of rights have decided instead to 'blame the victim'.

Quote:The Obama administration is making the right decision. War on Catholics? Maybe war on superstition that has no place in health care is a more apt description
.

You, nor the government, should have no say in how I decide to care for my health. If I wish to use prayer, a coin flip, or some probability algorithm its not your concern.
02-07-2012 12:25 PM
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Post: #49
RE: Obama's war on Catholics Continues
(02-07-2012 12:22 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  
ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  Lets apply this logic to Government.

a.) No one can agree on what their role is

b.) We let the individual choose how they are treated, then yeah...it's an easy call.

That's why we vote, and have a political system - to determine the role of government.

You don't like the Obama administration and their decisions, then by all means, work to defeat him.

Good luck with that.

Zoom! right over your head.
02-07-2012 12:26 PM
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AtlanticLeague Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Obama's war on Catholics Continues
(02-07-2012 12:18 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 12:16 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 12:14 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  Nope; it should not be a factor, period. We are beyond the point where we should be looking at ancient superstitions to guide our healthcare decisions.

But sadly not past the point where the enlightened folks get to strip away peoples basic rights in the name of their enlightenment.

If one's devotion to ancient superstition is so strong that it prevents them from providing care as required, then nobody is forcing them to do so. If you can't bring yourself to hand out birth control as required, then get a job parking cars at a mega-Church.

Isn't there a religious sect that rejects medicine? They accept prayer as the only treatment. I'm pretty sure that there were some parents that were charged with child endangerment because of that.

Freedom of religion, right?
02-07-2012 12:27 PM
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Post: #51
RE: Obama's war on Catholics Continues
(02-07-2012 12:18 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 12:16 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 12:14 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  Nope; it should not be a factor, period. We are beyond the point where we should be looking at ancient superstitions to guide our healthcare decisions.

But sadly not past the point where the enlightened folks get to strip away peoples basic rights in the name of their enlightenment.

If one's devotion to ancient superstition is so strong that it prevents them from providing care as required, then nobody is forcing them to do so. If you can't bring yourself to hand out birth control as required, then get a job parking cars at a mega-Church.

Why do you hate freedom? Seriously?

I hate the pill but if someone wants to run around handing them out I realize that as a citizen of a free nation I have no compelling reason to stop them.

You? You hate the idea that someone is guided by a different philosophy than you. And you're ready to restrict their rights so they make decision that you like.
02-07-2012 12:27 PM
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Post: #52
RE: Obama's war on Catholics Continues
(02-07-2012 12:24 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  The fundamental question is whether or not religious organizations are exempt from the rules and regulations that are applied to non-religious organizations. The SCOTUS just unanimously declared that some rules do not apply to religious organizations. Are we just picking and choosing what rules apply?

Should it be an "all or nothing" situation? Either you have to exist in the same legislative system as everyone else, or you don't. If you opt in then you are subject to both the costs and benefits of that system. If not, then you're on your own.

1. The founding fathers did this for us.

2. Forcing a religion to defy their religion through legislation is no different than forcing you to attend church. Both are wrong.[/b]
02-07-2012 12:29 PM
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wvucrazed Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Obama's war on Catholics Continues
(02-07-2012 12:25 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 12:16 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  But we're not talking about other philosophies, here. We are talking about Christianity, and whether or not it should be used to guide healthcare decisions.

No, thats what *youre* talking about. You've tried to bait and switch this thread. It's mindless drivel in an attempt to put up so much inflammatory material that the subject is lost.

You have moved this thread

From:
Should the government be able to tell private organizations what level of benefits they *must* provide even against their deep held reservations.

To:
Should people make health care decisions based on the Bible.

The fact these are slightly overlapping here is pure coincidence. That is why leaders of other faiths have also chimed in against this monstrous decision.

Quote:http://jpfo.org/rabbi/rabbi-defend-catholic.htm

Whether you agree or disagree with the Catholic Church’s positions on abortion, sterilization, and birth control, this draconian maneuver by the Obama administration is simply untenable. This isn’t just about the federal government vs. the Catholic Church. It is about the federal government vs. religious autonomy in America. -- Rabbi Dovid Bendory

Now you being either unwilling, or unable, to defend obamas latest micturition on the bill of rights have decided instead to 'blame the victim'.

Quote:The Obama administration is making the right decision. War on Catholics? Maybe war on superstition that has no place in health care is a more apt description
.

You, nor the government, should have no say in how I decide to care for my health. If I wish to use prayer, a coin flip, or some probability algorithm its not your concern.

But it is the concern of folks who need the care and who might be turned away because of an archaic superstition.

The fact is that hospitals have guidelines and it should not matter its religious affiliation. Yes, the government should have the right to tell hospitals what benefits they must provide. There should not be any exceptions or exemptions because of religion, nor should there be tax exemptions for these massive mega-dollar mega churches. It's all a gigantic scam preying off the superstition and vulnerable.
02-07-2012 12:30 PM
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Post: #54
RE: Obama's war on Catholics Continues
(02-07-2012 12:30 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 12:25 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 12:16 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  But we're not talking about other philosophies, here. We are talking about Christianity, and whether or not it should be used to guide healthcare decisions.

No, thats what *youre* talking about. You've tried to bait and switch this thread. It's mindless drivel in an attempt to put up so much inflammatory material that the subject is lost.

You have moved this thread

From:
Should the government be able to tell private organizations what level of benefits they *must* provide even against their deep held reservations.

To:
Should people make health care decisions based on the Bible.

The fact these are slightly overlapping here is pure coincidence. That is why leaders of other faiths have also chimed in against this monstrous decision.

Quote:http://jpfo.org/rabbi/rabbi-defend-catholic.htm

Whether you agree or disagree with the Catholic Church’s positions on abortion, sterilization, and birth control, this draconian maneuver by the Obama administration is simply untenable. This isn’t just about the federal government vs. the Catholic Church. It is about the federal government vs. religious autonomy in America. -- Rabbi Dovid Bendory

Now you being either unwilling, or unable, to defend obamas latest micturition on the bill of rights have decided instead to 'blame the victim'.

Quote:The Obama administration is making the right decision. War on Catholics? Maybe war on superstition that has no place in health care is a more apt description
.

You, nor the government, should have no say in how I decide to care for my health. If I wish to use prayer, a coin flip, or some probability algorithm its not your concern.

But it is the concern of folks who need the care and who might be turned away because of an archaic superstition.

The fact is that hospitals have guidelines and it should not matter its religious affiliation. Yes, the government should have the right to tell hospitals what benefits they must provide. There should not be any exceptions or exemptions because of religion, nor should there be tax exemptions for these massive mega-dollar mega churches. It's all a gigantic scam preying off the superstition and vulnerable.

And there we have the real issue. WVU hates religion.
02-07-2012 12:33 PM
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Post: #55
RE: Obama's war on Catholics Continues
(02-07-2012 12:27 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 12:18 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 12:16 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 12:14 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  Nope; it should not be a factor, period. We are beyond the point where we should be looking at ancient superstitions to guide our healthcare decisions.

But sadly not past the point where the enlightened folks get to strip away peoples basic rights in the name of their enlightenment.

If one's devotion to ancient superstition is so strong that it prevents them from providing care as required, then nobody is forcing them to do so. If you can't bring yourself to hand out birth control as required, then get a job parking cars at a mega-Church.

Why do you hate freedom? Seriously?

I hate the pill but if someone wants to run around handing them out I realize that as a citizen of a free nation I have no compelling reason to stop them.

You? You hate the idea that someone is guided by a different philosophy than you. And you're ready to restrict their rights so they make decision that you like.

There is freedom in the decision to offer healthcare; to found and build a hospital, or any institution, or not. If you do, then you are bound by whatever rules exist. If you can't be bound by those requirements over a matter of conscience, then by all means, go into something that doesn't strain your religious ideals - whatever that may be.

Patients should be able to go to the hospital and get the care they need and not have to worry about the particular religious beliefs of the organization who runs the place, and worry about what legal and legitimate services they may or may not be able to get based on some folks' adherence to nonsense folklore. It's really that simple.
(This post was last modified: 02-07-2012 12:34 PM by wvucrazed.)
02-07-2012 12:33 PM
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Post: #56
RE: Obama's war on Catholics Continues
Quote:But it is the concern of folks who need the care and who might be turned away because of an archaic superstition.

Examples? how does Obama forcing Catholic Hospitals to provide contraceptives *to their employees as part of their health care plan* fit into this?

Like I said you have tried to take this thing so far off point that you don't even know whats being discussed

Quote:Yes, the government should have the right to tell hospitals what benefits they must provide.

And with what type of service does the governments right over the private group end?

Quote:There should not be any exceptions or exemptions because of religion, nor should there be tax exemptions for these massive mega-dollar mega churches. It's all a gigantic scam preying off the superstition and vulnerable.

RTFA you don't even know what this is all about you loon.
(This post was last modified: 02-07-2012 12:36 PM by Bull_In_Exile.)
02-07-2012 12:34 PM
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Post: #57
RE: Obama's war on Catholics Continues
(02-07-2012 12:33 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 12:27 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 12:18 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 12:16 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 12:14 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  Nope; it should not be a factor, period. We are beyond the point where we should be looking at ancient superstitions to guide our healthcare decisions.

But sadly not past the point where the enlightened folks get to strip away peoples basic rights in the name of their enlightenment.

If one's devotion to ancient superstition is so strong that it prevents them from providing care as required, then nobody is forcing them to do so. If you can't bring yourself to hand out birth control as required, then get a job parking cars at a mega-Church.

Why do you hate freedom? Seriously?

I hate the pill but if someone wants to run around handing them out I realize that as a citizen of a free nation I have no compelling reason to stop them.

You? You hate the idea that someone is guided by a different philosophy than you. And you're ready to restrict their rights so they make decision that you like.

There is freedom in the decision to offer healthcare; to found and build a hospital, or any institution, if not. If you do, then you are bound by whatever rules exist. If you can't be bound by those requirements over a matter of conscience, then by all means, go into something that doesn't strain your religious ideals - whatever that may be.

Patients should be able to go to the hospital and get the care they need and not have to worry about the particular religious beliefs of the organization who runs the place, and worry about what legal and legitimate services they may or may not be able to get based on some folks' adherence to nonsense folklore. It's really that simple.

Again, thanks for telling us how you would like to run our lives for us. Good to know that religious freedom doesn't fit your agenda.
02-07-2012 12:35 PM
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wvucrazed Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Obama's war on Catholics Continues
(02-07-2012 12:34 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
Quote:But it is the concern of folks who need the care and who might be turned away because of an archaic superstition.

Examples? how does Obama forcing Catholic Hospitals to provide contraceptives *to their employees as part of their health care plan* fit into this?

Like I said you have tried to take this thing so far off point that you don't even know whats being discussed

Quote:Yes, the government should have the right to tell hospitals what benefits they must provide.

And with what type of service does the governments right over the private group end?

Quote:There should not be any exceptions or exemptions because of religion, nor should there be tax exemptions for these massive mega-dollar mega churches. It's all a gigantic scam preying off the superstition and vulnerable.

RTFA you don't even know what this is all about you loon.

Yeah, I know what it's all about. I'm making an additional point, and it relates. All of these special considerations for religion - - it's absurd. Some religions don't believe in blood transfusions. Some folks will sit and watch their kids die while praying to an imaginary sky god rather than take them to the doctor. There is no limit to the kookiness of religion. There obviously has to be governmental regulation of hospitals, to keep all of us safe. Why should some hospitals be permitted to withhold certain legal and safe services because of religious ideals? Should a surgeon be allowed to say "oh, nope, sorry, can't operate, will violate my religious beliefs"? If that seems absurd, then it is - - - the whole thing is. The entire concept is. The notion that healthcare decisions should be made on someone's interpretation of ancient mythology is just ludicrous - - it really is.
02-07-2012 12:41 PM
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Post: #59
RE: Obama's war on Catholics Continues
(02-07-2012 12:35 PM)ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  Again, thanks for telling us how you would like to run our lives for us. Good to know that religious freedom doesn't fit your agenda.

No one's telling you what to believe. But if you are gonna call yourself a hospital, then there are certain services you're gonna have to provide.
02-07-2012 12:42 PM
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Post: #60
RE: Obama's war on Catholics Continues
(02-07-2012 12:42 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 12:35 PM)ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  Again, thanks for telling us how you would like to run our lives for us. Good to know that religious freedom doesn't fit your agenda.

No one's telling you what to believe. But if you are gonna call yourself a hospital, then there are certain services you're gonna have to provide.

False. That's like saying I have a clothing store so I have to provide clothing suitable for everyone. Your logic fails the stink test. If a religious institution starts a hospital then they choose what services to provide. Your other problem is when someone prays instead of taking their child to the doctor. Now you want to regulate how someone raises their child?What if the roles were reversed and this was a Christian nation and you were made to adhere to our rules. As it stands you can chose what hospital you go to. If you want to be treated at at a state sponsored hospital then so be it but don't legislate religious institutions out of existence because you believe differently than they do. Wether you agree or not religion has its place.
02-07-2012 12:51 PM
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