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Big East looks to expand
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Bill Marsh Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Big East looks to expand
(11-01-2010 11:09 AM)Raleighwood Pirate Wrote:  
(11-01-2010 08:57 AM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  Even though I love to loathe ECU, they are a much better candidate than Villanova/Temple. ECU, despite their small market, draws well and they televise well. If given a BCS opportunity, they'd instantly eclipse Wake and Duke (for football anyway) in NC and be on par with NC State. Plus their football is, you know, good...unlike Temple and Villanova (in terms of having to move up for them). Philly isn't a college town for football and Temple/Nova aren't going to change that. Better to take what ECU gets you in Raleigh and the Tidewater (which is at least something since MASN picks up their games).

We have eclipsed Duke and Wake a long time ago. We are the #3 team in NC.

So, how does it help the Big East to have the #3 football program in a state with a population of 9 million?

And let's not forget that ECU isn't even #5 in NC in basketball.
11-01-2010 11:15 AM
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Bob Barker Away
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Post: #62
RE: Big East looks to expand
(11-01-2010 10:56 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(11-01-2010 10:41 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  
(11-01-2010 10:33 AM)buckaineer Wrote:  Houston is looking at building a brand new football stadium with much higher capacity. Their current stadium doesn't hold much more if any more than that average. I wouldn't go to basketball games either if the league games consisted of teams like ECU and Tulane and Southern Miss. In the Big East, their attendance would increase as it has for every team added to the league.

I think Houston would rather play in Reliant Stadium for a few years first and rebuild the base before building a stadium. The reason they moved back on-campus was the declining numbers in the Astrodome as a result of the collsapse of the SWC.

Forget Houston. Don't even think about them for the Big East.

Houston's attendance in the Astrodome was always lousy. Awhile back someone posted a link to a media guide with their reported historical attendance figures. Even in the 1970s when they were winning the SWC and going to the Cotton Bowl, they only had good home attendance when they hosted Texas or Texas A&M and (sometimes) Arkansas. Otherwise they were reporting under 20,000 per game.

The city of Houston is an NFL town first, a Longhorn town second, and an Aggie town third. The Houston Cougars couldn't get any traction with football fans in their city even when they were playing in a major conference and had one of the best teams in the country.

In 1998, UH moved all games to Robertson. It's 2010 now and if you want to hold what happened at UH in the '70's, 80's, and 90's against it, then good for you. What you're overlooking is the change in leadership in the president's office and athletic department as well as the incredible growth the university has had and continues to have. You're also overlooking the fact that the UH president was the #2 in command at USF when it joined the Big East.

UH is far from perfect, but it is far from the university that you're trying to make it out to be. The Aggies do not carry the Houston market, they only have 4 games on TV this year. The Longhorns have always been strong, they are the T-Shirt team for the state. Just ask the lawn guys wearing their UT hats.

The good thing about people underestimating Houston is that they'll be surprised when they see that the decision makers view of Houston is vastly different than their own.
11-01-2010 11:19 AM
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Brick City Pirate Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Big East looks to expand
(11-01-2010 11:15 AM)Bill Marsh Wrote:  
(11-01-2010 11:09 AM)Raleighwood Pirate Wrote:  
(11-01-2010 08:57 AM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  Even though I love to loathe ECU, they are a much better candidate than Villanova/Temple. ECU, despite their small market, draws well and they televise well. If given a BCS opportunity, they'd instantly eclipse Wake and Duke (for football anyway) in NC and be on par with NC State. Plus their football is, you know, good...unlike Temple and Villanova (in terms of having to move up for them). Philly isn't a college town for football and Temple/Nova aren't going to change that. Better to take what ECU gets you in Raleigh and the Tidewater (which is at least something since MASN picks up their games).

We have eclipsed Duke and Wake a long time ago. We are the #3 team in NC.

So, how does it help the Big East to have the #3 football program in a state with a population of 9 million?

And let's not forget that ECU isn't even #5 in NC in basketball.


Do the math. UCF would be the #5 football program in Florida. Memphis would be #2 or #3 football program in Tennessee. If you divide those schools by their state's population they are about the same as ECU being #3 in North Carolina.
11-01-2010 11:25 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Big East looks to expand
(11-01-2010 10:33 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  
(11-01-2010 10:11 AM)JunkYardCard Wrote:  
(11-01-2010 09:29 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I think it's going to be REALLY hard to go up to 20. Remember all of the Big Ten expansion news stories that talked about how expanding to 16 schools was almost a certainty (and I had some very knowledgeable people tell me that directly, too). When push came to shove, though, the conference presidents showed that they are very conservative by nature and they chose to add the bare minimum that will maximize revenues instead of the "world domination" schemes that bloggers (like myself) love to write about. Note that the NY Post article stated that the non-football members don't want to expand the overall league past 16, so jumping up to 20 is unrealistic. We may see 18 (TCU plus one other football school if Villanova doesn't rise), but even that can't necessarily be counted on if the non-football members are as dug in on capping the league at 16 as they seem to be. There's going to be a lot of give and take here if there's any movement at all.

Isn't that really a reflection of how tightly knit the Big Ten is? For example, Iowa not wanting to see OSU take extended breaks from its schedule? The Big East doesn't have this "problem" so to speak. They might welcome divisions. For example, I don't think St. John's would miss having USF of the schedule AT ALL... EVER. Even though it's a good game, would UConn really miss playing Cincy in basketball?

And it's only 20 for basketball. Football would still only be 12. I think the only major problem with 20 for basketball is getting a fair share of bids to the NCAA tournament.

I think that is really a good point. While there are certainly some lessons to be learned from the B10's toe dipping into a 16 team league it is not a perfect analogy just as the WAC's 16-team league wasn't a perfect template for the B10. Every league is unique and every situation is different.

For a myriad of reasons, I'm still not sure that the BE will expand past Villanova much less to 12 teams, but I think it is folly to reason, "Well, this is what happened with the B10 so this is what will happen with the BE." It simply doesn't work that way.

Oh, the Big East has a lot of different circumstances than the Big Ten, for sure. It's just that, as bluesox alluded to, a 20-team league is really just 2 different conferences with a scheduling arrangement no matter what type of label you want to slap on it. A 16 school league is already freaking huge and we've already seen Big East schools lose NCAA Tournament bids as a result of it. If you're going up to 20 schools, then what the heck is the point of advancing the hybrid anymore? At that point, the league just needs to split (and I'm not a "split for the sake of splitting" proponent at all). A currently super-sized league going up to a mega-sized league just won't work well in practicality - schools won't play each other, even more NCAA Tournament bids will be lost, etc.
11-01-2010 11:30 AM
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Raleighwood Pirate Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Big East looks to expand
(11-01-2010 11:15 AM)Bill Marsh Wrote:  
(11-01-2010 11:09 AM)Raleighwood Pirate Wrote:  
(11-01-2010 08:57 AM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  Even though I love to loathe ECU, they are a much better candidate than Villanova/Temple. ECU, despite their small market, draws well and they televise well. If given a BCS opportunity, they'd instantly eclipse Wake and Duke (for football anyway) in NC and be on par with NC State. Plus their football is, you know, good...unlike Temple and Villanova (in terms of having to move up for them). Philly isn't a college town for football and Temple/Nova aren't going to change that. Better to take what ECU gets you in Raleigh and the Tidewater (which is at least something since MASN picks up their games).

We have eclipsed Duke and Wake a long time ago. We are the #3 team in NC.

So, how does it help the Big East to have the #3 football program in a state with a population of 9 million?

And let's not forget that ECU isn't even #5 in NC in basketball.

Well, because there is no team that is the football power in the NC. Carolina is in a mess of trouble and will lose a ton of scholarships from the scandal. O'Brian doesn't have NCSU quite established yet. They have a horrible defense. There is potential for us with a BCS label to surpass those two and be the best team in the state and surpass them at some point market wise. A lot of their fans do watch ECU games. Duke and Wake won't put us on the schedule anymore. UNC isn't either. NCSU said they will re-evaluate playing us in 2015. To me, it sounds like teams have a lot to lose by playing a good non-bcs team. I guess we are a threat to them.

We stink in Basketball, but hired Jeff Lebo the old Tarheel Bball player who has had some great success coaching. He'll turn it around and give us some sort of relevance in a few years.

I know we are not the front runner by any means, but ECU does have a lot to offer. I think more than most people think.
11-01-2010 11:31 AM
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buckaineer Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Big East looks to expand
(11-01-2010 11:15 AM)Bill Marsh Wrote:  
(11-01-2010 11:09 AM)Raleighwood Pirate Wrote:  
(11-01-2010 08:57 AM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  Even though I love to loathe ECU, they are a much better candidate than Villanova/Temple. ECU, despite their small market, draws well and they televise well. If given a BCS opportunity, they'd instantly eclipse Wake and Duke (for football anyway) in NC and be on par with NC State. Plus their football is, you know, good...unlike Temple and Villanova (in terms of having to move up for them). Philly isn't a college town for football and Temple/Nova aren't going to change that. Better to take what ECU gets you in Raleigh and the Tidewater (which is at least something since MASN picks up their games).

We have eclipsed Duke and Wake a long time ago. We are the #3 team in NC.

So, how does it help the Big East to have the #3 football program in a state with a population of 9 million?

And let's not forget that ECU isn't even #5 in NC in basketball.

One can easily submit that they aren't #3 in that state--#3 in what exactly? Based on television appearances on major networks Wake isn't behind ECU and Duke probably isn't either. If you are talking home attendance it just isn't as important in the bigger picture which is revenues for the league.
11-01-2010 11:34 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Big East looks to expand
(11-01-2010 11:09 AM)Raleighwood Pirate Wrote:  
(11-01-2010 08:57 AM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  Even though I love to loathe ECU, they are a much better candidate than Villanova/Temple. ECU, despite their small market, draws well and they televise well. If given a BCS opportunity, they'd instantly eclipse Wake and Duke (for football anyway) in NC and be on par with NC State. Plus their football is, you know, good...unlike Temple and Villanova (in terms of having to move up for them). Philly isn't a college town for football and Temple/Nova aren't going to change that. Better to take what ECU gets you in Raleigh and the Tidewater (which is at least something since MASN picks up their games).

We have eclipsed Duke and Wake a long time ago. We are the #3 team in NC.

To be fair, Duke is "special". They are to this generation for college sports what Notre Dame was for previous generations - the school that every single person in America has a very strong opinion about (whether good or bad). Duke is the one school that actually moves the meter so much in terms of basketball TV ratings that it overrides their putrid football program. They are right next to the Yankees, Lakers and Cowboys on America's Most Hated list.
11-01-2010 11:36 AM
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saxamoophone Offline
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RE: Big East looks to expand
(Talking about football only here...)

Actually Brick, UCF is currently 2nd in the USA Today Coaches Poll ahead of UF, Miami, USF, FAU, and FIU.

When it comes to "hard-core" fans, UCF is about equal to USF.

When UCF went to Miami they probably brought more fans to the game (seriously).

UCF & USF may very well pass Miami, and be on par with FSU in the next few years (FSU is not the same school they were 10 years ago). And given how fast FSU has dropped off, Florida has to work pretty hard to keep the seperation from the rest of the state.

Memphis isn't moving up until they build an on-campus stadium.

ECU is probably already on par with NCState and North Carolina.
(This post was last modified: 11-01-2010 11:39 AM by saxamoophone.)
11-01-2010 11:36 AM
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buckaineer Offline
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RE: Big East looks to expand
(11-01-2010 11:25 AM)Brick City Pirate Wrote:  
(11-01-2010 11:15 AM)Bill Marsh Wrote:  
(11-01-2010 11:09 AM)Raleighwood Pirate Wrote:  
(11-01-2010 08:57 AM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  Even though I love to loathe ECU, they are a much better candidate than Villanova/Temple. ECU, despite their small market, draws well and they televise well. If given a BCS opportunity, they'd instantly eclipse Wake and Duke (for football anyway) in NC and be on par with NC State. Plus their football is, you know, good...unlike Temple and Villanova (in terms of having to move up for them). Philly isn't a college town for football and Temple/Nova aren't going to change that. Better to take what ECU gets you in Raleigh and the Tidewater (which is at least something since MASN picks up their games).

We have eclipsed Duke and Wake a long time ago. We are the #3 team in NC.

So, how does it help the Big East to have the #3 football program in a state with a population of 9 million?

And let's not forget that ECU isn't even #5 in NC in basketball.


Do the math. UCF would be the #5 football program in Florida. Memphis would be #2 or #3 football program in Tennessee. If you divide those schools by their state's population they are about the same as ECU being #3 in North Carolina.

We've already been through this argument. Even if UCF only garnered Orlando viewers which is doubtful with their huge alumni, it is still many more potential viewers than the potential viewers ECU can muster in the best of circumstances.

Not to mention UCF brings Florida recruits which are much more highly regarded and sought after than any North Carolina ones. Add in a nearby BE program, better facilities and academics and the case is closed.
11-01-2010 11:40 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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RE: Big East looks to expand
(11-01-2010 11:36 AM)saxamoophone Wrote:  UCF & USF may very well pass Miami, and be on par with FSU in the next few years (FSU is not the same school they were 10 years ago). And given how fast FSU has dropped off, Florida has to work pretty hard to keep the seperation from the rest of the state.

Now, now - as the Wolf said in Pulp Fiction, "Let's not start sucking each other d***s right now." Reasonably speaking, Miami and Florida State have inherent advantages that aren't going to go away even if they have relatively down seasons. College football power moves at a glacial pace - you get different surprise temporary upstarts every year, but moving tiers for the long-term is a very slow process. If you look at history, college football's current hierarchy was basically formed in the decade after World War II and has barely changed in the last 60 years - the powers that rose up then are still largely the powers in college football today.
11-01-2010 11:43 AM
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Raleighwood Pirate Offline
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Post: #71
RE: Big East looks to expand
(11-01-2010 11:40 AM)buckaineer Wrote:  
(11-01-2010 11:25 AM)Brick City Pirate Wrote:  
(11-01-2010 11:15 AM)Bill Marsh Wrote:  
(11-01-2010 11:09 AM)Raleighwood Pirate Wrote:  
(11-01-2010 08:57 AM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  Even though I love to loathe ECU, they are a much better candidate than Villanova/Temple. ECU, despite their small market, draws well and they televise well. If given a BCS opportunity, they'd instantly eclipse Wake and Duke (for football anyway) in NC and be on par with NC State. Plus their football is, you know, good...unlike Temple and Villanova (in terms of having to move up for them). Philly isn't a college town for football and Temple/Nova aren't going to change that. Better to take what ECU gets you in Raleigh and the Tidewater (which is at least something since MASN picks up their games).

We have eclipsed Duke and Wake a long time ago. We are the #3 team in NC.

So, how does it help the Big East to have the #3 football program in a state with a population of 9 million?

And let's not forget that ECU isn't even #5 in NC in basketball.


Do the math. UCF would be the #5 football program in Florida. Memphis would be #2 or #3 football program in Tennessee. If you divide those schools by their state's population they are about the same as ECU being #3 in North Carolina.

We've already been through this argument. Even if UCF only garnered Orlando viewers which is doubtful with their huge alumni, it is still many more potential viewers than the potential viewers ECU can muster in the best of circumstances.

Not to mention UCF brings Florida recruits which are much more highly regarded and sought after than any North Carolina ones. Add in a nearby BE program, better facilities and academics and the case is closed.

However, what Florida is for football NC is for basketball recruits. We put out the best recruits in the country in basketball.
11-01-2010 11:44 AM
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Gray Avenger Offline
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Post: #72
RE: Big East looks to expand
(11-01-2010 11:36 AM)saxamoophone Wrote:  Memphis isn't moving up until they build an on-campus stadium.

(1) Recently-renovated 62,000-seat Liberty bowl stadium is only two miles from campus.

(2) There are a number of successful BCS programs (some in the BE) which play off-campus

(3) With BCS status and a modicum of success, an on-campus stadium probably WILL be built.
11-01-2010 11:46 AM
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Bill Marsh Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Big East looks to expand
(11-01-2010 11:25 AM)Brick City Pirate Wrote:  
(11-01-2010 11:15 AM)Bill Marsh Wrote:  
(11-01-2010 11:09 AM)Raleighwood Pirate Wrote:  
(11-01-2010 08:57 AM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  Even though I love to loathe ECU, they are a much better candidate than Villanova/Temple. ECU, despite their small market, draws well and they televise well. If given a BCS opportunity, they'd instantly eclipse Wake and Duke (for football anyway) in NC and be on par with NC State. Plus their football is, you know, good...unlike Temple and Villanova (in terms of having to move up for them). Philly isn't a college town for football and Temple/Nova aren't going to change that. Better to take what ECU gets you in Raleigh and the Tidewater (which is at least something since MASN picks up their games).

We have eclipsed Duke and Wake a long time ago. We are the #3 team in NC.

So, how does it help the Big East to have the #3 football program in a state with a population of 9 million?

And let's not forget that ECU isn't even #5 in NC in basketball.


Do the math. UCF would be the #5 football program in Florida. Memphis would be #2 or #3 football program in Tennessee. If you divide those schools by their state's population they are about the same as ECU being #3 in North Carolina.

Why should I do the math on UCF & Memphis? I'm not a fan of adding either of those teams do the BE.

But even with your logic, UCF is a better candidate. Divide Florida's 18 million by 5 = 3.6 million, which is better than 3 million - especially since WF, Duke, & ASU provide stronger competition to ECU in NC than anyone after UCF would provide in Florida.

Add in the fact that ECU brings no benefit in terms of football recruiting the way that UCF does in Florida & the fact that UCF isn't automatically pushed as far back in basketball as ECU is in state & the fact that UCF is in a major metro area & ECU is not. Although I'm not a fan of adding UCF, I see clear advantages with them over ECU.
11-01-2010 11:46 AM
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Post: #74
RE: Big East looks to expand
Houston Cougar fan here.

Just a note that we are:

1. Averaging 100% of capacity this season in football.
2. Getting excellent TV ratings in our market.
3. Making huge strides in fund raising for the $160M stadium projects, which include a new football stadium and a $40M upgrade to Hofheinz Pavilion.

Glad we are on the Big East radar. Would love to rejoin Louisville, Cincy, USF and TCU.
11-01-2010 11:47 AM
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buckaineer Offline
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RE: Big East looks to expand
(11-01-2010 11:44 AM)Raleighwood Pirate Wrote:  
(11-01-2010 11:40 AM)buckaineer Wrote:  
(11-01-2010 11:25 AM)Brick City Pirate Wrote:  
(11-01-2010 11:15 AM)Bill Marsh Wrote:  
(11-01-2010 11:09 AM)Raleighwood Pirate Wrote:  We have eclipsed Duke and Wake a long time ago. We are the #3 team in NC.

So, how does it help the Big East to have the #3 football program in a state with a population of 9 million?

And let's not forget that ECU isn't even #5 in NC in basketball.


Do the math. UCF would be the #5 football program in Florida. Memphis would be #2 or #3 football program in Tennessee. If you divide those schools by their state's population they are about the same as ECU being #3 in North Carolina.

We've already been through this argument. Even if UCF only garnered Orlando viewers which is doubtful with their huge alumni, it is still many more potential viewers than the potential viewers ECU can muster in the best of circumstances.

Not to mention UCF brings Florida recruits which are much more highly regarded and sought after than any North Carolina ones. Add in a nearby BE program, better facilities and academics and the case is closed.

However, what Florida is for football NC is for basketball recruits. We put out the best recruits in the country in basketball.

Can't agree with that either-the northeast puts out the best basketball recruits and even UNC and Duke recruit heavily from that region for star players
11-01-2010 11:48 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #76
RE: Big East looks to expand
(11-01-2010 11:44 AM)Raleighwood Pirate Wrote:  However, what Florida is for football NC is for basketball recruits. We put out the best recruits in the country in basketball.

Is that really true? North Carolina might have the best college basketball fans in the country, but I don't know if it's really the best recruiting ground. NYC and Chicago have produced a disproportionate share of basketball stars over the past 30 years, and other large urban areas (LA, DC, Philly, Detroit) are close behind. Out of the "smaller" states with lots of college basketball fans, Indiana seems to be an unusually fertile basketball recruiting ground compared to its overall population.
11-01-2010 11:50 AM
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Post: #77
RE: Big East looks to expand
(11-01-2010 11:30 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Oh, the Big East has a lot of different circumstances than the Big Ten, for sure. It's just that, as bluesox alluded to, a 20-team league is really just 2 different conferences with a scheduling arrangement no matter what type of label you want to slap on it. A 16 school league is already freaking huge and we've already seen Big East schools lose NCAA Tournament bids as a result of it. If you're going up to 20 schools, then what the heck is the point of advancing the hybrid anymore? At that point, the league just needs to split (and I'm not a "split for the sake of splitting" proponent at all). A currently super-sized league going up to a mega-sized league just won't work well in practicality - schools won't play each other, even more NCAA Tournament bids will be lost, etc.

this

16 teams is unwieldy now. why make things worse by adding teams? the football schools need to stop demurring to the basketball side. they should have split off en-masse when the big twelven was in major instability and asked kansas, k-state, mizzou, and iowa state to join up in a conference. 12 teams, no hybrid and enough teams in football to do a championship game.

but we all know that doing the right thing for this conference is nearly impossible. if all they care about is markets for a possible big east network, they should consider san diego state and a school in the los angeles area. why not? it makes as much sense as a 20 team "conference" where teams may play each other once in 3 years.
11-01-2010 11:51 AM
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Post: #78
RE: Big East looks to expand
(11-01-2010 11:46 AM)Bill Marsh Wrote:  I see clear advantages with them over ECU.

Correction - you see "potential"...none of the so-called expansion "candidates" bring ANYTHING tangible to ANY new conference right now besides POTENTIAL - not TCU, not Houston, not Villanova, not anyone.....any "advantages" are simply perceived at this point, because in almost all the cases, you're talking about things that do not yet exist......

We all can sleep better at night knowing that not one person who posts on any message board will have any say in any possible expansion.....God help us if that weren't the case.
(This post was last modified: 11-01-2010 11:59 AM by Capital Pirate.)
11-01-2010 11:52 AM
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RE: Big East looks to expand
At this point ECU has done everything it is capable of doing to be ready. Expanded the stadium, filled the stadium, upgraded every single athletic facility, won back to back championships, so if it isn't enough then it never will be. It's as simple as that. We will have tough decisions to make if we get left behind again.
11-01-2010 12:01 PM
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RE: Big East looks to expand
(11-01-2010 11:43 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(11-01-2010 11:36 AM)saxamoophone Wrote:  UCF & USF may very well pass Miami, and be on par with FSU in the next few years (FSU is not the same school they were 10 years ago). And given how fast FSU has dropped off, Florida has to work pretty hard to keep the seperation from the rest of the state.

Now, now - as the Wolf said in Pulp Fiction, "Let's not start sucking each other d***s right now." Reasonably speaking, Miami and Florida State have inherent advantages that aren't going to go away even if they have relatively down seasons. College football power moves at a glacial pace - you get different surprise temporary upstarts every year, but moving tiers for the long-term is a very slow process. If you look at history, college football's current hierarchy was basically formed in the decade after World War II and has barely changed in the last 60 years - the powers that rose up then are still largely the powers in college football today.

Ha! I agree Frank, this isn't something happens overnight. (even though I'm obviously bias with my team being UCF).
BUT...UCF and USF are in a weird position since both schools have went from small commuter schools two decades ago to two of the biggest schools in the country.

Most fans are tied to schools because
1) They went there.
2) They know somebody that went there (family probably)
3) It’s the hometown team.
4) They were raised to like that team.

When it comes to Miami, being a small private school really doesn’t help them. They got a great history, but I think their size will be their downfall in the end.

Now obviously Florida is still going to be #1 for years to come, and FSU will be a solid #2. But I think each year USF and UCF are going to catch up…Field performance first, followed by booster clubs. I think the biggest thing holding those two schools back is the conference affiliation. An annual UCF/USF rivalry game might help that!
I just think the gap between programs will close a little…maybe sooner rather than later (once again, wishful thinking on my part maybe)
11-01-2010 12:04 PM
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