(04-17-2018 12:33 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  And the APA and the AMA both agree that gender is not determined by genitals. And that someone born with a p(nis or V8gina CAN have a gender that is incongruent with their organs.

If you want to boil down being a man to nothing more than having a P*nis then that's on you. Gender is far more complex that that, and that's not just me but the overwhelming majority of professionals and medical experts.

Actually this isn't entirely true, but you're demonstrating the issue pretty well

Sex and gender aren't the same thing. Being gay has to do with gender which is why we talk about gender identity. Having a ***** has to do with genetics/sex. Being trans has to do with changing from one sex to the other, hence the term... I'll go with you that some people are born with 'both' sexes, but this is exceedingly rare. We don't have testicles that produce estrogen or ovaries that produce estrogen that I'm aware of, but certainly someone may have testicles that produce very little testosterone and/or in rare cases, both testicles AND ovaries. Vastly more often, you have people who were born one sex, but for any of a variety of reasons (including but not limited to medical) feel more comfortable being the other.

I personally don't have a problem with someone wanting to identify as whatever they wish to identify as.... because the reality is that if your side Tom pushes this too far, the reaction is going to be to demand that people identify their genetics in order to qualify for 'special' treatment, which I'm sure isn't what you want... because while it may be a small number (or not), there ARE people for whom being gay or trans IS a choice... and those people deserve respect as well.

Where my problem comes in is granting special legal treatment based on simple claims with no requirement to wear a special vest or have a doctors note etc like many disabled people have to do... OR in their demanding that I for some reason know that they wish to be referred to as Ze or Hir and mocking me if I don't know. Of ALL people, those seeking to not be ridiculed etc should pass that same courtesy on.