Artaxerxes decree for the wall in Nehemiah 2 until Jesus enters Jerusalem for the Passover and crucifixion.

69 "weeks" of (7)years.

Article from the late great Chuck Missler:

http://xwalk.ca/king2.html

Daniel 9:25: "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks (69); the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times."

In the fifth century B.C. a Hebrew named Nehemiah, then cup bearer to the Medo-Persian king Artaxerxes, wrote of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem:

"And it came to pass in the month of Nisan, in the twentieth year of the reign of Artaxerxes, when wine was before him, I took wine and gave it to the king. Now I had never been sad in his presence before. Therefore, the king said to me 'why is your face sad, since you are not sick.'" Nehemiah 2:1-2 (NKJ)

Nehemiah went on to explain that he was sad because he had heard reports that the city of his people, Jerusalem, was still desolate. Nehemiah, requested that he be allowed to go back to Jerusalem and rebuild the city. King Artaxerxes granted his wish on the spot and gave him official "letters" or documents for easy passage. This occurred, we are told in the month of Nisan, in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes Longimanus' reign.

Artaxerxes Longimanus ascended to the throne of the Medo-Persian empire in July 465 B.C. (Encyclopedia Britannica, 1990 ed.). The twentieth year of his reign would have begun in July 446 B.C. The decree occurred approximately nine months later in the month of Nisan (March/April on our calendar). By Hebrew tradition when the day of the month is not specifically stated (as in Artaxerxes decree), it is given to be the first day of that month. Consequently, the very day of Artaxerxes' decree was the first day of the Hebrew month Nisan in 445 B.C. The first day of Nisan in 445 B.C. corresponds to the 14th day of March. These dates were confirmed through astronomical calculations at the British Royal Observatory and reported by Sir Robert Anderson (Robert Anderson, "The Coming Prince", Kregel. Reprinted in 1984.).

The prophecy states that 69 weeks of years (173,880 days using the 360 day prophetic year) after the command goes forth to restore and rebuild the city of Jerusalem the Messiah will come.

If we count forward 173,880 days from March 14th 445 B.C. we arrive at April 6th 32 A.D.

How could Daniel, writing in 537 B.C., have known this in advance ? How could anyone have contrived to have this prediction documented over five centuries in advance?

There is in fact, another way to check the accuracy of this date. In the Gospel of Luke, chapter three, it states that in the 15th year of the reign of Caesar Tiberius, Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and began his ministry. It is well established that the reign of Caesar Tiberius (The Encyclopedia Britannica, 1990. Micropedia) began with his coronation on August 19th in the year A.D. 14. Most scholars believe Jesus was baptized in the fall season. It therefore follows that the ministry of Jesus started with his baptism in the Fall of A.D. 28, the 15th year of reign of Caesar Tiberius (The day that a Roman ruler ascends the throne begins his first year.). The ministry of Jesus spanned four Passovers or about three and one half years.

The first Passover of Jesus' ministry would have been in the Spring of A.D. 29. The fourth Passover of His ministry was the day of his crucifixion and would have fallen in the year A.D. 32. The Passover in that year fell on April 10th (The Passover holiday always occurs on the 14th day of Nisan in the Hebrew calendar. This corresponds to the first full moon after the Spring equinox.). Remarkably, according to Robert Anderson and the British Royal Observatory, the Sunday before that Passover was April 6th-The very day that Jesus presents himself as King and exactly 173,880 days after the decree of Artaxerxes!!

According to the principles of biblical higher criticism, this prophecy proves that the book of Daniel was written after the Gospel of Luke! This is, of course, absurd because Daniel was translated into Greek (the Septuagint) nearly three centuries before Jesus was even born

This Prophecy is one of the most astonishing proofs that God transcends time and is able to see the end from the beginning with incredible precision!

Here is basically the long form.

http://xwalk.ca/king.html

To fully appreciate the remarkable significance of the following, it is essential to realize that the Book of Daniel, as part of the Old Testament, was translated into Greek prior to 270 b.c., several centuries before Christ was born. This is a well established fact of secular history.

The Septuagint
After his conquest of the Babylonian Empire, Alexander the Great promoted the Greek language throughout the known world, and thus almost everyone - including the Jews - spoke Greek. Hebrew fell into disuse, being reserved primarily for ceremonial purposes (somewhat analogous to the use of Latin among Roman Catholics).

In order to make the Jewish Scriptures (what we call the Old Testament) available to the average Jewish reader, a project was undertaken under the sponsorship of Ptolemy II Philadelphus (285-246 b.c.) to translate the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek. Seventy scholars were commissioned to complete this work and their result is known as the "Septuagint" ("70") translation.

(This is often abbreviated "LXX".)

The Book of Daniel is actually one of the most authenticated books of the Old Testament, historically and archaeologically, but this is a convenient short-cut for our purposes here.

It is critical to realize that the Book of Daniel existed in documented form almost three centuries before Christ was born.

Gabriel's Zinger
Daniel, originally deported as a teenager (now near the end of the Babylonian captivity), was reading in the Book of Jeremiah. He understood that the seventy years of servitude were almost over and he began to pray for his people.

The Angel Gabriel interrupted Daniel's prayer and gave him a four-verse prophecy that is unquestionably the most remarkable passage in the entire Bible: Daniel 9:24-27.

These four verses include the following segments:

9:24The Scope of the entire prophecy;
9:25The 69 Weeks;
9:26An Interval between the 69th and 70th Week;
9:27The 70th Week.

The Scope

9:24: "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy Place."

The idiom of a "week" of years was common in Israel as a "sabbath for the land," in which the land was to lie fallow every seventh year.2

It was their failure to obey these laws that led to God sending them into captivity under the Babylonians.3

When did the Messiah present Himself as a King? On one specific day, Jesus arranges it!

Note that the focus of this passage is upon "thy people and upon thy holy city," that is, upon Israel and Jerusalem. (It is not directed to the church.)

The scope of this prophecy includes a broad list of things which clearly have yet to be completed.

The First 69 Weeks
A very specific prediction occurs in verse 25:

9:25: "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

This includes a mathematical prophecy. Verse 24 states that "seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city." In Hebrew the word translated as "weeks" is pronounced "shabua" and literally means a week of years. The word shabuim would readily be understood as a seven of years in this context, much like the word decade means ten years in English.

Verse 25 then declares that Daniel should "know and Understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and rebuild Jurusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty two weeks." This verse is a precise mathematical prediction of the time of Messiah's coming! In effect, the angel Gabriel told Daniel that after sixty-nine weeks of years the Messiah would be revealed to the nation of Israel!

If a "shabuim" is a week (seven) of years, it therefore follows that 69 sevens is 483 years (69 x 7= 483 years).

The Jewish (and Babylonian) calendars used a 360-day year;4 69 weeks of 360-day years totals 173,880 days.

In effect, Gabriel told Daniel that the interval between the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem until the presentation of the Messiah as King would be 173,880 days.

The "Messiah the Prince" in the King James translation is actually the Meshiach Nagid, "The Messiah the King." (Nagid is first used of King Saul.)

Bull's Eye!
The commandment to restore and build Jerusalem was given by Artaxerxes Longimanus on March 14, 445 b.c.5 (The emphasis in the verse on "the street" and "the wall" was to avoid confusion with other earlier mandates confined to rebuilding the Temple.)

But when did the Messiah present Himself as a King? During the ministry of Jesus Christ there were several occasions in which the people attempted to promote Him as king, but He carefully avoided it. "Mine hour is not yet come."6

The Triumphal Entry
Then one day He meticulously arranges it.7 On this particular day he rode into the city of Jerusalem riding on a donkey, deliberately fulfilling a prophecy by Zechariah that the Messiah would present Himself as king in just that way:

"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass."

Zechariah 9:9
Whenever we might easily miss the significance of what was going on, the Pharisees come to our rescue. They felt that the overzealous crowd was blaspheming, proclaiming Jesus as the Messiah the King.8 However, Jesus endorsed it!

"I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out."

Luke 19:40
This is the only occasion that Jesus presented Himself as King. It occurred on April 6, 32 a.d.9

The Precision of Prophecy
When we examine the period between March 14, 445 b.c. and April 6, 32 a.d., and correct for leap years, we discover that it is 173,880 days exactly, to the very day!

Here are the calculations.

March 14th, 445 B.C. to March 14th, 32 A.D. is 476 years.

(1 B.C. to 1 A.D. is one year, There is no year zero)

476 years x 365 days per year = 173,740 days

Add for leap years = 116 days (Leap years do not occur in century years unless divisible by 400 [therefore, we must add three less leap years in four centuries])

March 14th to April 6 th = 24 days

total = 173,880

How could Daniel have known this in advance? How could anyone have contrived to have this detailed prediction documented over three centuries in advance?

Ancient Rabbis and Daniel's Seventy Weeks
Some of you may be thinking that the application of this prophecy to the Messiah is a Christian contrivance. In fact, most modern rabbis try to deny the messianic application of this prophecy. However, it is well established that the ancient Jews believed that this prophecy pinpointed the time of the Messiah's coming. In fact, many in the Qumran community (the writers of the Dead Sea Scrolls) believed that they were living in the very generation to which this prophecy pointed! (Biblical Archaeology Review, Nov/Dec 1992, p.58)

In the Baylonian Talmud, compiled between A.D. 200-500, ancient rabbis commented on the time of the Messiah's coming and Daniels seventy weeks prophecy.

Regarding the times referred to in Daniel's prophecy, Rabbi Judah, the main compiler of the talmud, said:

"These times were over long ago"
Babylonia Talmud Sanhedrin 98b and 97a

In the 12th Century A.D., Rabbi Moses Ben Maimon (Maimonides), one of the most respected rabbis in history, and a man who rejected the messianic claims of Jesus of Nazareth, said regarding Daniel's seventy weeks prophecy:

"Daniel has elucidated to us the knowledge of the end times. However, since they are secret, the wise (rabbis) have barred the calculation of the days of Messiah's coming so that the untutored populace will not be led astray when they see that the End Times have already come but there is no sign of the Messiah" (Emphasis added). Igeret Teiman, Chapter 3 p.24.

Finally, Rabbi Moses Abraham Levi said regarding the time of Messiah's coming:

"I have examined and searched all the Holy Scriptures and have not found the time for the coming of Messiah clearly fixed, except in the words of Gabriel to the prophet Daniel, which are written in the 9th chapter of the prophecy of Daniel"
The Messiah of the Targums, Talmuds and Rabbinical Writers, 1971.

But there's more.

The Interval
There appears to be a gap between the 69th week (verse 25) and the 70th week (verse 27):

9:26: "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." The sixty-two "weeks" follow the initial seven, so verse 26 deals with events after 69th week, but before the 70th. These events include the Messiah being killed and the city and sanctuary being destroyed.

There is a remaining seven-year period to be fulfilled. Revelation 6-19 is essentially a detailing of that climactic period.

As Jesus approached the city on the donkey, He also predicted the destruction of Jerusalem:

For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Luke 19:43-44
The Messiah was, of course, executed at the Crucifixion. "But not for Himself."

The city and the sanctuary were destroyed 38 years later when the Roman legions under Titus Vespasian leveled the city of Jerusalem in 70 a.d., precisely as Daniel and Jesus had predicted. In fact, as one carefully examines Jesus' specific words, it appears that He held them accountable to know this astonishing prophecy in Daniel 9! "Because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation."

The 70th Week
There is a remaining seven-year period to be fulfilled. This period is the most documented period in the entire Bible. The Book of Revelation, Chapters 6 through 19, is essentially a detailing of that climactic period.

The interval between the 69th and 70th week continues, but it is increasingly apparent that it may soon be over.

The more one is familiar with the numerous climactic themes of "end-time" prophecy, the more it seems that Daniel's 70th Week is on our horizon.

I have in fact seen some secular historians say Daniel was written after the Gospels b/c it predicts the destruction of the 2nd Temple. It doesn't make sense to them: If Daniel is written to the Exiles, & he's prophecying they'll return to the Promised Land to rebuild the Temple, why is he telling them that the Temple will be destroyed again? Daniel also gives them precise times, & those precise times were when the Exiles returned & when the 2nd Temple was destroyed. So they figure Daniel must be written after the 2nd Temple was destroyed. But indeed, it doesn't make sense b/c Daniel's prophecying the Messiah will come around that time too, & it's well-known Jews were expecting the Messiah then because of prophecy, specifically Daniel, & the abundance of manuscripts of Daniel clearly show it was circulating well before 70 AD.

I think most secular historians just attribute it to coincidence, but they definitely do think most of it was written after the other prophecies that did happen.

One other thing about Daniel, I see Evangelicals all the time say you need Daniel to understand Revelation, but I don't see that. I see Daniel prophecying from the Exile time to the destruction of the 2nd Temple. I do not see it prophecying about the End Times except a verse or 2.

Also, in regards to the date Jesus fulfilled that prophecy riding on the donkey, secularists say it's not that Daniel was written after it, it's that the Christians wrote the Gospels so it occured then so people would believe it was fulfilled (they backdated it). Me & you of course would disagree w/ them, but that'd be how they understand it. But the prophecies about the 2nd Temple's destruction are unparalleled.

A lot of people think the Gospels were written after the destruction of the Temple b/c Jesus reveals it, but they don't know Daniel predicted it hundreds of years earlier!

(02-16-2023 07:06 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  I have in fact seen some secular historians say Daniel was written after the Gospels b/c it predicts the destruction of the 2nd Temple. It doesn't make sense to them: If Daniel is written to the Exiles, & he's prophecying they'll return to the Promised Land to rebuild the Temple, why is he telling them that the Temple will be destroyed again? Daniel also gives them precise times, & those precise times were when the Exiles returned & when the 2nd Temple was destroyed. So they figure Daniel must be written after the 2nd Temple was destroyed. But indeed, it doesn't make sense b/c Daniel's prophecying the Messiah will come around that time too, & it's well-known Jews were expecting the Messiah then because of prophecy, specifically Daniel, & the abundance of manuscripts of Daniel clearly show it was circulating well before 70 AD.

I think most secular historians just attribute it to coincidence, but they definitely do think most of it was written after the other prophecies that did happen.

They would die 1000 deaths before admitting its clear evidence for the divine origins of the text.

If there is anything we have learned in recent years politically, it just how far people will go to blind themselves and deny truth and reality. There are no limits to the depths people will go to deny truth.

As undeniable as this evidence is in Daniel and some of the other prophets, there is no evidence that could be given that will matter to the hard core secularists. They will deny water is wet if it means rejecting the truth about Christ. They will piss on you and tell you its raining.

But then there are others out there with eyes to see and ears to hear. Stuff like this adds up as they come to faith. Salvation is instantaneous, but the path and journey to faith can be a long one for some. The seeds of the prophets can really root and sprout in certain people given time and exposure.

(02-16-2023 07:06 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  One other thing about Daniel, I see Evangelicals all the time say you need Daniel to understand Revelation, but I don't see that. I see Daniel prophecying from the Exile time to the destruction of the 2nd Temple. I do not see it prophecying about the End Times except a verse or 2.

Well its clearly more than just a verse or two. Both Daniel 7 and 8 have clear end time passages, as do Chapters 9 and 11. It also has a detailed description of the beast which aligns with the first beast of Revelation (Rome), its clearly designed to help you connect the two. The entire 12th chapter is end time events as well. But its not just those prophecies, its the dreams in early chapters and the events Daniel lived through such as the giant image of gold forcing all the people come and worship or be executed and multiple details and multiple stories that are a direct foreshadowing of Revelation.

What gets to me is so many people just read Revelation and a few chapters of Daniel and then want to have these hard core positions and debates on end times. Yet they have not even read half the material in the Bible on it yet. Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah, Psalms, Joel, Micah, Jeremiah, Zephaniah and others are loaded with end times prophecy details. Even preachers and so called theologians fall into this category. They have clearly not read or studied much of the OT.

I don't know how many times I will point people to a key passage in those other books and they are so clearly reading it for the first time in their lives. Yet they have all these hard core positions about everything and they have not even read half of the material.

Another thing too many people don't seem to grasp if you don't know the historical parts of the OT inside and out, (Genesis all the way through Kings, Chronicles, Nehemiah and Esther) your not going to understand most of the symbolic references and patterns in Daniel and Revelation. Your going to make up your own interpretations instead based on your limited reading.

Everything in Revelation is just a replay of countless events throughout the OT and Israel. Everything is repeating itself multiple times on a grander and grander scale. The small details change, but the big picture and clear patterns are just repeating over and over again. But so many people obsesses over Revelation and the small details and have these personal theories about it they just make up. But if they would just read and study the OT seriously, they will see what so much of this stuff in Revelation is referencing and symbolizing. God the Father even tells us in Isaiah and Psalms if we know inside and out what happened in the beginning and middle, we will already know the events at the end.

The OT is basically a key that unlocks it, and if you don't have that key you are just going to fill in the blanks with your own imagination. That is what so many people tend to do. That is why there are so many dramatically different views on Revelation.

Its not about being right on all the small details (no one can do that), its just about understanding the big picture and big ticket items. When you realize you can clearly see those patterns repeating over and over and over from Genesis through Revelation, you know you are seeing what God intended you to see in the scripture.

Having said that, its still a blessing that so many people are opening and reading Revelation and the NT because of what they see happening and coming in the world.

(02-16-2023 07:06 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  I have in fact seen some secular historians say Daniel was written after the Gospels b/c it predicts the destruction of the 2nd Temple. It doesn't make sense to them: If Daniel is written to the Exiles, & he's prophecying they'll return to the Promised Land to rebuild the Temple, why is he telling them that the Temple will be destroyed again? Daniel also gives them precise times, & those precise times were when the Exiles returned & when the 2nd Temple was destroyed. So they figure Daniel must be written after the 2nd Temple was destroyed. But indeed, it doesn't make sense b/c Daniel's prophecying the Messiah will come around that time too, & it's well-known Jews were expecting the Messiah then because of prophecy, specifically Daniel, & the abundance of manuscripts of Daniel clearly show it was circulating well before 70 AD.

I think most secular historians just attribute it to coincidence, but they definitely do think most of it was written after the other prophecies that did happen.

One other thing about Daniel, I see Evangelicals all the time say you need Daniel to understand Revelation, but I don't see that. I see Daniel prophecying from the Exile time to the destruction of the 2nd Temple. I do not see it prophecying about the End Times except a verse or 2.

Also, in regards to the date Jesus fulfilled that prophecy riding on the donkey, secularists say it's not that Daniel was written after it, it's that the Christians wrote the Gospels so it occured then so people would believe it was fulfilled (they backdated it). Me & you of course would disagree w/ them, but that'd be how they understand it. But the prophecies about the 2nd Temple's destruction are unparalleled.

A lot of people think the Gospels were written after the destruction of the Temple b/c Jesus reveals it, but they don't know Daniel predicted it hundreds of years earlier!

A good day for a bump.

It wasnt just the jews who knew Christ was coming. The woman from Samaria knew it all too well.

25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

(04-07-2023 01:45 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(02-16-2023 07:06 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  I have in fact seen some secular historians say Daniel was written after the Gospels b/c it predicts the destruction of the 2nd Temple. It doesn't make sense to them: If Daniel is written to the Exiles, & he's prophecying they'll return to the Promised Land to rebuild the Temple, why is he telling them that the Temple will be destroyed again? Daniel also gives them precise times, & those precise times were when the Exiles returned & when the 2nd Temple was destroyed. So they figure Daniel must be written after the 2nd Temple was destroyed. But indeed, it doesn't make sense b/c Daniel's prophecying the Messiah will come around that time too, & it's well-known Jews were expecting the Messiah then because of prophecy, specifically Daniel, & the abundance of manuscripts of Daniel clearly show it was circulating well before 70 AD.

I think most secular historians just attribute it to coincidence, but they definitely do think most of it was written after the other prophecies that did happen.

One other thing about Daniel, I see Evangelicals all the time say you need Daniel to understand Revelation, but I don't see that. I see Daniel prophecying from the Exile time to the destruction of the 2nd Temple. I do not see it prophecying about the End Times except a verse or 2.

Also, in regards to the date Jesus fulfilled that prophecy riding on the donkey, secularists say it's not that Daniel was written after it, it's that the Christians wrote the Gospels so it occured then so people would believe it was fulfilled (they backdated it). Me & you of course would disagree w/ them, but that'd be how they understand it. But the prophecies about the 2nd Temple's destruction are unparalleled.

A lot of people think the Gospels were written after the destruction of the Temple b/c Jesus reveals it, but they don't know Daniel predicted it hundreds of years earlier!

A good day for a bump.

It wasnt just the jews who knew Christ was coming. The woman from Samaria knew it all too well.

25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

When Jesus referred to the destruction of the "temple" he was speaking of himself, so perhaps that is where the confusion is coming from.

(04-20-2023 09:36 PM)RuckleSt Wrote:  

(04-07-2023 01:45 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(02-16-2023 07:06 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  I have in fact seen some secular historians say Daniel was written after the Gospels b/c it predicts the destruction of the 2nd Temple. It doesn't make sense to them: If Daniel is written to the Exiles, & he's prophecying they'll return to the Promised Land to rebuild the Temple, why is he telling them that the Temple will be destroyed again? Daniel also gives them precise times, & those precise times were when the Exiles returned & when the 2nd Temple was destroyed. So they figure Daniel must be written after the 2nd Temple was destroyed. But indeed, it doesn't make sense b/c Daniel's prophecying the Messiah will come around that time too, & it's well-known Jews were expecting the Messiah then because of prophecy, specifically Daniel, & the abundance of manuscripts of Daniel clearly show it was circulating well before 70 AD.

I think most secular historians just attribute it to coincidence, but they definitely do think most of it was written after the other prophecies that did happen.

One other thing about Daniel, I see Evangelicals all the time say you need Daniel to understand Revelation, but I don't see that. I see Daniel prophecying from the Exile time to the destruction of the 2nd Temple. I do not see it prophecying about the End Times except a verse or 2.

Also, in regards to the date Jesus fulfilled that prophecy riding on the donkey, secularists say it's not that Daniel was written after it, it's that the Christians wrote the Gospels so it occured then so people would believe it was fulfilled (they backdated it). Me & you of course would disagree w/ them, but that'd be how they understand it. But the prophecies about the 2nd Temple's destruction are unparalleled.

A lot of people think the Gospels were written after the destruction of the Temple b/c Jesus reveals it, but they don't know Daniel predicted it hundreds of years earlier!

A good day for a bump.

It wasnt just the jews who knew Christ was coming. The woman from Samaria knew it all too well.

25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

When Jesus referred to the destruction of the "temple" he was speaking of himself, so perhaps that is where the confusion is coming from.

There are some really strange and wild doctrines beginning to come out in recent times, such as preterism. Like other wild conspiracies, the internet seems to help propagate them among the less well studied on these topics in the Bible. I have heard a few preterists try to make this argument at times but it too is massively contradictory of their own views and just turns all of it into nonsensical gibberish.

Its also pretty well established now that Pauls letters were written in the 50's AD and are clearly written with the knowledge that the gospels were already circulating in the early church.

I'm pretty understanding on different perspectives on eschatology and other things but when we go down the road of stuff like preterism and trying to argue the gospels are written after 70 AD we have left the realm of logic and reason and are eyeball deep in high level quackery.

These things are so far out in outer space that they eliminate the possibility of a serious scriptural debate on them because they turn massive amounts of the text into a blank empty canvas that people can just spin to say whatever they desire for it to say and mean. And then the actual words are meaningless.

Its impossible to have a serious debate on the text when one side is claiming entire books don't remotely mean what they say, and only they can tell you what they actually mean. That is basically a marxist approach to the text. Change the meanings of all the words so serious debate is totally shut down and only the maxists can now tell you what things really mean. And if you don't agree with them then too bad because its your fault for not agreeing with them. And you can't debate them because every single verse and text you point to that debunks their claims magically doesn't mean what it says at all. How convenient is that?


The entire NT warned that wild new teachings and doctrines of demons would explode in the final years of the church age, and that is clearly what we are seeing. From stuff like this to LGBTQ friendly doctrines that spin the text and turn them complete upside down from 2000 years of tried and true scriptural wisdom.

Preterism is influenced by secularists who give a late date for Revelation. "He was just writing what was happening around him, he can't prophecy for us."

But I do think the Jewish prophecy concept of double-fulfillment can be applied: where some prophecies in Revelation DID happen back then, but there will also be a future fulfillment as well. I'm not sure what that's called.

(04-22-2023 12:11 AM)Bronco14 Wrote:  Preterism is influenced by secularists who give a late date for Revelation. "He was just writing what was happening around him, he can't prophecy for us."

But I do think the Jewish prophecy concept of double-fulfillment can be applied: where some prophecies in Revelation DID happen back then, but there will also be a future fulfillment as well. I'm not sure what that's called.

I fully agree but thats not just a Jewish belief, dual fulfillment has long been understood in Christianity for virtually the entire church age. There are foreshadowings of the beast kingdom in the Holy Roman empire for example that will repeat and culminate into its actual fulfillment in the final years. Very much in the way Antiochus Epiphanes foreshadowed the antichrist desecrating the temple some 180 years before Jesus. Then Jesus came, pointed to Daniels prophecy and told us that still was yet future. Thats actually a big narrative throughout the entire Bible, such as how Moses and the exodus is foreshadowing what Jesus does with the Church, or how the Passover is a foreshadowing of Jesus on the cross. There are all kinds of examples scripture that we can point to that are foreshadowings and dual fulfillment.

But in the Revelation narrative, the temple is not destroyed, the Jews are not kicked out of the Holy land for 2000 years, more than half the earth dies in a world wide tribulation, Jesus returns with the Resurrected saints and destroys the beast and his Kingdom in the valley of Megiddo (Armageddon) and Jesus and the Saints reign on the earth for 1000 years in peace.

Now compare that with....

In 70 AD, ROME WON, the temple was destroyed, there was no resurrection and 2nd coming, no battle of Armageddon in Megiddo, the Jews were scattered across the earth for 2000 years, no 1000 year reign of Christ and the Saints from Jerusalem, more than half the earth did not die in a world wide tribulation. There was no world wide cataclysmic of any kind, just an isolated event in the tiny province of Judea.


The two events are diametrically opposed on every level, which is why preterism is such a quack looney tunes theology. How can you debate or discuss any of this with people who say these events are one in the same?

You can't, when people are that far separated from reality on this its an impossible discussion.

I purposely don't take a stand in the pre-millennial/post-millennial/rapture debate. I think of the Pharisees, who had studied scripture so intently that they knew exactly who the Messiah was going to be. Then Jesus came and fulfilled all the Old Testament prophecies, but not in the way that they expected, so they missed it.

I figure when God wants me to know, He will tell me--or show me--and until then I've got far more important parts of my walk with God to take care of.

(04-22-2023 04:43 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I purposely don't take a stand in the pre-millennial/post-millennial/rapture debate. I think of the Pharisees, who had studied scripture so intently that they knew exactly who the Messiah was going to be. Then Jesus came and fulfilled all the Old Testament prophecies, but not in the way that they expected, so they missed it.

I figure when God wants me to know, He will tell me--or show me--and until then I've got far more important parts of my walk with God to take care of.

Owl, understanding of the prophets and scripture does not come from man, it comes from God. Scripture tells us that repeatedly in both the OT and NT. The pharisees of Jesus time were not Godly men, Jesus himself called them a generation of vipers and murderers that would not escape the damnation of hell.

We've had this discussion before, but it seems you just don't want to accept it even though its exactly what the NT says about this specific topic. The issue is not that these things could not be understood at all, the issue is these were evil, corrupt men not led by the Spirit of God. This is not intended as a slight on you, I'm just saying maybe open yourself up to what the NT tells us about this topic. As I have suggested before, just read Matthew 23 for yourself.

Ask yourself why they were not looking for the Messiah but many of Jesus' disciples did understand the prophets point to the Messiah coming in that generation and were looking for Him? Ask yourself why His followers had a heart to receive Him but that pharisees did not? The issue is not that they could not understand the prophets at all, the issue is they were evil, ungodly men who were not led by God and the Holy Spirit. They were led by greed, pride and corruption, thus they were spiritually blind to all these things.

Now no one is required to read the prophets or study eschatology, but I would be careful when you start suggesting they are not important or all the other things are far more important for believers. As Paul wrote, the hand cannot tell the foot you are no good because your not a hand, the nose cannot tell the ear your no good because you have no smelling. All these parts work together to from the whole body, they are not in opposition or competition for importance, all the parts have great importance and work together to form the whole.

God dedicated nearly 1/3rd of His Word to this subject, clearly He places a great value and importance on it. Did you know the book of Revelation is the only book in the Bible that tells us we receive a special blessing for reading it and keeping its words in our heart and mind?

"Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near." Rev 1:3

Your not required to study them and your gifts and path God laid out for you may not be down this road, but I would suggest caution suggesting that these things cannot be understood or are not important enough as other parts of the Christians life and church.

That is 180 degrees opposite of what scripture say about this. Is that really where we want to be, in direct conflict with Gods Word on this?

Respectfully I would suggest to consider this. God Bless.