(05-11-2022 08:59 AM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  

(05-11-2022 08:46 AM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 12:48 PM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  If Illinois State had spent on average $10 million more per year on football 1990-2010, are they in UCF’s shoes?

No way.

Not enough available football talent within driving distance of Normal, Ill.

There’s about as much as Cincinnati.
Enough NIU had an orange bowl season too

Good bit more football talent in Ohio (much less Florida than Illinois), but I'll stand corrected once NIU joins UCF and Cincinnati in the Big 12.

(05-11-2022 09:38 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(05-11-2022 08:59 AM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  

(05-11-2022 08:46 AM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 12:48 PM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  If Illinois State had spent on average $10 million more per year on football 1990-2010, are they in UCF’s shoes?

No way.

Not enough available football talent within driving distance of Normal, Ill.

There’s about as much as Cincinnati.
Enough NIU had an orange bowl season too

Cincinnati has way more access to Ohio and a bit to Pennsylvania. And UCF/Cincy had a much better conference with the old AAC. And they’re located in Cincinnati/Orlando as compared to Blo-No. And they’re much bigger schools with much bigger budgets. There’s no comparison.

ISU would just be splitting players the other MAC teams get.

Your NIU insecurity is getting the best of you.
Flip in NIU if you wish, but Illinois St is bigger even with FCS football for a reason imo.

There’s no comparison NOW. That’s the point of the question. What’s the ROI on investing in athletics?

I hate that break it to you, but all of those schools invested heavily in becoming major college athletics to become bigger. And you could extend that to the university at large. UCF and USF are large because it was an objective. The UCF president took some heat for that, but he got the last laugh.

Go back to the question, if 30 years ago, if ISU invested an average of $10 million a year more in football, what does that do for the university compared to what that $10 million could otherwise do. How that $300 million is amortized matters, but even just $10 million in 1990 puts them in a power conference budget wise for football. In essence, if ISU makes the same decision that USF and UCF made.


Illinois St (or NIU) location are not prohibitive to being a high major . There’s only one high major school in MO, IL, WI, MN. There were already 3 in Florida when UCF/USF started, when the state had similar population to IL, plus they had each other to fight with in the quest to move up.

What’s prohibitive is the funding. It won’t come from the State- political barriers. It won’t come from fan base size- that’s very very slow.

It would need to come from investors, which colleges have never fully embraced. And now it’s too late.

(05-11-2022 10:02 AM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  

(05-11-2022 08:59 AM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  

(05-11-2022 08:46 AM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 12:48 PM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  If Illinois State had spent on average $10 million more per year on football 1990-2010, are they in UCF’s shoes?

No way.

Not enough available football talent within driving distance of Normal, Ill.

There’s about as much as Cincinnati.
Enough NIU had an orange bowl season too

Good bit more football talent in Ohio (much less Florida than Illinois), but I'll stand corrected once NIU joins UCF and Cincinnati in the Big 12.

Ohio is drivable to Illinois. ISU to Cincinnati a much shorter drive than Tallahassee to Miami, and similar to Tampa or Orlando to Miami. More talent in FL, now, but also 3 programs since the 80’s with much of the last 40 years the state being closer to IL in population. Also USF eating from the same trough

Iowa State and NIU have made NY6 games. Getting enough talent to be a high major isn’t the barrier. It was never the barrier for Cincy or UCF either. Do you think Cincinnati suddenly has more local recruits now than before?

It’s brand, or in other words, funding. The minimum brand requirement was lowered by the Big 12, and Cincinnati and UCF brands have gone up. UCF passing USF even. That’s happened somewhat conventionally. Success followed by more funding. The question is, if a school instead first funded athletics at a high major level, would they end up a high major? You know, a big reason why many schools are top high majors now is because last century the schools were first to spend more on athletics

(05-11-2022 08:57 AM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 11:48 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 11:35 AM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 11:04 AM)Stay Cool Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 10:50 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Illinois is a huge exporter of students.

If anything, the state doesn't have enough colleges.

That's because of in-state tuition costs, not lack of options. Also, most people from Illinois want to get the hell out of Illinois, especially around Chicago.

Sent from my SM-N981U using Tapatalk

That’s not exactly true. University of Iowa is more expensive out of state than NIU or ISU.

It’s as much a quality supply issue as cost. Residential education is trending towards luxury goods. Illinois has a shortage of spots for what the number of quality students are looking for.

My personal opinion is college athletics plays into that.

Illinois has a lot of colleges that have generally always been fast food quality, now charging casual dining prices, and most students are looking for better

When I visited my brother at University of Iowa ten years ago I was amazed at how many kids were from Illinois. I think you’re right, if they can’t go to Illinois they go out of state rather than stay in state for a “less prestigious”. Yeah, I think sports has something to do with it.

This is precisely what happens at Arkansas. Texas student enrollment is massive. If kids don’t get into UT/A&M, there’s a high chance they’ll choose Arkansas over Tech, Houston, or other in-state choices. It’s also plenty of kids who could afford SMU based on the amount of Texas plates on new high end cars in the lot.

Yep. Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, and the entire SEC West recruit Texas hard, especially DFW and Houston. They'll waive out-of-state tuition when they need to.

(05-11-2022 10:10 AM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  

(05-11-2022 09:38 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(05-11-2022 08:59 AM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  

(05-11-2022 08:46 AM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 12:48 PM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  If Illinois State had spent on average $10 million more per year on football 1990-2010, are they in UCF’s shoes?

No way.

Not enough available football talent within driving distance of Normal, Ill.

There’s about as much as Cincinnati.
Enough NIU had an orange bowl season too

Cincinnati has way more access to Ohio and a bit to Pennsylvania. And UCF/Cincy had a much better conference with the old AAC. And they’re located in Cincinnati/Orlando as compared to Blo-No. And they’re much bigger schools with much bigger budgets. There’s no comparison.

ISU would just be splitting players the other MAC teams get.

Your NIU insecurity is getting the best of you.
Flip in NIU if you wish, but Illinois St is bigger even with FCS football for a reason imo.

There’s no comparison NOW. That’s the point of the question. What’s the ROI on investing in athletics?

I hate that break it to you, but all of those schools invested heavily in becoming major college athletics to become bigger. And you could extend that to the university at large. UCF and USF are large because it was an objective. The UCF president took some heat for that, but he got the last laugh.

Go back to the question, if 30 years ago, if ISU invested an average of $10 million a year more in football, what does that do for the university compared to what that $10 million could otherwise do. How that $300 million is amortized matters, but even just $10 million in 1990 puts them in a power conference budget wise for football. In essence, if ISU makes the same decision that USF and UCF made.


Illinois St (or NIU) location are not prohibitive to being a high major . There’s only one high major school in MO, IL, WI, MN. There were already 3 in Florida when UCF/USF started, when the state had similar population to IL, plus they had each other to fight with in the quest to move up.

What’s prohibitive is the funding. It won’t come from the State- political barriers. It won’t come from fan base size- that’s very very slow.

It would need to come from investors, which colleges have never fully embraced. And now it’s too late.

ISU or NIU can’t just snap their fingers and invest at the levels of UCF or Cincinnati. UCF/Cincinnati have way more intrinsic advantages (enrollment, funding, location, access to talent) that allowed them to invest more and more over the years.

You can play the “what if school X invested $10 million more in football?” with any school. It’s a what-if for a reason: it’s not realistic. It’s not like ISU or NIU aren’t investing that much because of a lack of willingness — they’re just simply not capable of investing to the levels of a Cincinnati or UCF.

(05-11-2022 08:57 AM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 11:48 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 11:35 AM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 11:04 AM)Stay Cool Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 10:50 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Illinois is a huge exporter of students.

If anything, the state doesn't have enough colleges.

That's because of in-state tuition costs, not lack of options. Also, most people from Illinois want to get the hell out of Illinois, especially around Chicago.

Sent from my SM-N981U using Tapatalk

That’s not exactly true. University of Iowa is more expensive out of state than NIU or ISU.

It’s as much a quality supply issue as cost. Residential education is trending towards luxury goods. Illinois has a shortage of spots for what the number of quality students are looking for.

My personal opinion is college athletics plays into that.

Illinois has a lot of colleges that have generally always been fast food quality, now charging casual dining prices, and most students are looking for better

When I visited my brother at University of Iowa ten years ago I was amazed at how many kids were from Illinois. I think you’re right, if they can’t go to Illinois they go out of state rather than stay in state for a “less prestigious”. Yeah, I think sports has something to do with it.

This is precisely what happens at Arkansas. Texas student enrollment is massive. If kids don’t get into UT/A&M, there’s a high chance they’ll choose Arkansas over Tech, Houston, or other in-state choices. It’s also plenty of kids who could afford SMU based on the amount of Texas plates on new high end cars in the lot.

Arkansas has a very attractive out-of-state scholarship program (particularly for adjoining states). It ends up being about the same as in-state tuition in Texas.

If you are from Houston, UH doesn't sound so exotic, and Fayetteville is about the same distance as Lubbock.

(05-11-2022 10:35 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(05-11-2022 10:10 AM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  

(05-11-2022 09:38 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(05-11-2022 08:59 AM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  

(05-11-2022 08:46 AM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  No way.

Not enough available football talent within driving distance of Normal, Ill.

There’s about as much as Cincinnati.
Enough NIU had an orange bowl season too

Cincinnati has way more access to Ohio and a bit to Pennsylvania. And UCF/Cincy had a much better conference with the old AAC. And they’re located in Cincinnati/Orlando as compared to Blo-No. And they’re much bigger schools with much bigger budgets. There’s no comparison.

ISU would just be splitting players the other MAC teams get.

Your NIU insecurity is getting the best of you.
Flip in NIU if you wish, but Illinois St is bigger even with FCS football for a reason imo.

There’s no comparison NOW. That’s the point of the question. What’s the ROI on investing in athletics?

I hate that break it to you, but all of those schools invested heavily in becoming major college athletics to become bigger. And you could extend that to the university at large. UCF and USF are large because it was an objective. The UCF president took some heat for that, but he got the last laugh.

Go back to the question, if 30 years ago, if ISU invested an average of $10 million a year more in football, what does that do for the university compared to what that $10 million could otherwise do. How that $300 million is amortized matters, but even just $10 million in 1990 puts them in a power conference budget wise for football. In essence, if ISU makes the same decision that USF and UCF made.


Illinois St (or NIU) location are not prohibitive to being a high major . There’s only one high major school in MO, IL, WI, MN. There were already 3 in Florida when UCF/USF started, when the state had similar population to IL, plus they had each other to fight with in the quest to move up.

What’s prohibitive is the funding. It won’t come from the State- political barriers. It won’t come from fan base size- that’s very very slow.

It would need to come from investors, which colleges have never fully embraced. And now it’s too late.

ISU or NIU can’t just snap their fingers and invest at the levels of UCF or Cincinnati. UCF/Cincinnati have way more intrinsic advantages (enrollment, funding, location, access to talent) that allowed them to invest more and more over the years.

You can play the “what if school X invested $10 million more in football?” with any school. It’s a what-if for a reason: it’s not realistic. It’s not like ISU or NIU aren’t investing that much because of a lack of willingness — they’re just simply not capable of investing to the levels of a Cincinnati or UCF.

We both agree snapping fingers doesn’t create money.

Whether these schools have the funds wasn’t the contention.

We can play the game with any school, but some better suited than others.
It seems you don’t want to entertain the thought, just post several times on tangents or straw mans to the question. No big deal, I’m familiar with the sensitivity NIU fans have about ISU and even their own barriers due to lack of funding

Cincinnati wasn’t a public university until 1977 and UCF not a school until the 60’s. It’s endowment still similar to NIU and had major competition within Fl. And initially little political support. You can’t decouple what those schools have become from their leadership and decisions on how to get there. I know it’s comforting to think NIU maxed out, but UCF just did a better job in its mission to improve its profile, and a huge part of that is the Administration’s approach to athletics.

I’m closer to the USF side, but the difference between how NIU’s “willingness” and USF’s is vast.

Cincinnati has a $1.7B endowment. By comparison NIU’s is $99M. UC has 47k students compared to NIU’s 16,600.

Yeah the schools are the same.

(05-10-2022 01:18 PM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 12:52 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  I agree w/ this: You wouldn't see as many Illinois students leaving if there were more 'high-quality' schools.

Imagine if Chicago had Big 10 athletics, Illinois Urbana-Champaign was a Big 10 power, or there was another Big 10 school.

As a MAC fan, yes, I'm open to another Illinois school in the MAC. I don't know if it'd help the state of Illinois, but I think it could help Northern Illinois. having a nice rivalry in-state.

Again, speaking of the MAC, I've gotten the sense that four schools have larger fan bases/more resources than the rest of the conference's traditional Midwest members:

Miami
Ohio U
Toledo
Western Michigan

Would that be accurate?

Ohio, Toledo, Western and Central Michigan have more fans than Miami. It used to not be the case, but over the last 20 years Miami’s attendance had dwindled, with the exception of when Ohio or UC come to Oxford. Miami does have more affluent alums than those school on average.

(05-11-2022 01:58 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 01:18 PM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  Again, speaking of the MAC, I've gotten the sense that four schools have larger fan bases/more resources than the rest of the conference's traditional Midwest members:

Miami
Ohio U
Toledo
Western Michigan

Would that be accurate?

Ohio, Toledo, Western and Central Michigan have more fans than Miami. It used to not be the case, but over the last 20 years Miami’s attendance had dwindled, with the exception of when Ohio or UC come to Oxford. Miami does have more affluent alums than those school on average.

Thanks.
Included Miami on the list in part because of their rich history, lofty academic reputation and likelihood of more alums with deep pockets.

Surprised to learn WMU and CMU are more or less on the same tier.

Really figured Western — being in Kalamazoo and with a much larger endowment — would have the clear upper hand over Central.

But maybe it's a case of CMU being a big fish in the small pond of Mount Pleasant while most people in Kzoo are more interested in UM, MSU or Notre Dame than the local MAC school.

These kinds of dynamics are fascinating

(05-11-2022 02:27 PM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  

(05-11-2022 01:58 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 01:18 PM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  Again, speaking of the MAC, I've gotten the sense that four schools have larger fan bases/more resources than the rest of the conference's traditional Midwest members:

Miami
Ohio U
Toledo
Western Michigan

Would that be accurate?

Ohio, Toledo, Western and Central Michigan have more fans than Miami. It used to not be the case, but over the last 20 years Miami’s attendance had dwindled, with the exception of when Ohio or UC come to Oxford. Miami does have more affluent alums than those school on average.

Thanks.
Included Miami on the list in part because of their rich history, lofty academic reputation and likelihood of more alums with deep pockets.

Surprised to learn WMU and CMU are more or less on the same tier.

Really figured Western — being in Kalamazoo and with a much larger endowment — would have the clear upper hand over Central.

But maybe it's a case of CMU being a big fish in the small pond of Mount Pleasant while most people in Kzoo are more interested in UM, MSU or Notre Dame than the local MAC school.

These kinds of dynamics are fascinating

Central's always had a good football history, both during their pre-MAC Division II days, then during their Butch Jones & Brian Kelly days. Even today we see them consistently get P5 wins. They've had a lot to cheer for in Mount Pleasant.
Plus the school is better at targeting & marketing themselves in West Michigan than Western, as well as the Detroit metro's (apparently). Though lately their enrollment numbers are dropping faster.

Anyways, will be interesting to see the numbers of where the Lincoln College students transfer. What types of students was Lincoln attracting.