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NCAAF Proposal to Remove Division Requirement for Championship Games
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NIU1981 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: NCAAF Proposal to Remove Division Requirement for Championship Games
Talk is that the ACC is leaning toward a 3-5 model, where teams would always have three common opponents and rotate five others. If the MAC did the same who would be our three common opponents? I’m guessing Ball State, WMU and Toledo.
05-10-2022 09:31 PM
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epasnoopy Offline
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RE: NCAAF Proposal to Remove Division Requirement for Championship Games
It's official. Now the MAC needs to get rid of football divisions so two best teams can play.

05-18-2022 02:40 PM
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epasnoopy Offline
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RE: NCAAF Proposal to Remove Division Requirement for Championship Games
Pac 12 already announced it has dissolved its divisions and will their 2022 title game will feature the two best teams.
05-18-2022 06:35 PM
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epasnoopy Offline
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RE: NCAAF Proposal to Remove Division Requirement for Championship Games
Just like men's soccer, the MAC is electing to do nothing with eliminating divisions.

https://theathletic.com/3321550/2022/05/...-sun-belt/

Quote:MAC

Multiple sources in the MAC told The Athletic there has not been much in-depth discussion about getting rid of divisions, nor is there a desire to. The league has the smallest geographic footprint of any conference, with six schools in Ohio and three schools in Michigan. The East division includes five Ohio schools and Buffalo. The West has the three directional Michigan schools, Toledo (which is on the Michigan border), Ball State and Northern Illinois.

That makes for a lot of natural in-state rivalries and easy bus trips. Why mess with that? It’s very likely the conference keeps divisions.
05-19-2022 02:30 PM
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Post: #25
RE: NCAAF Proposal to Remove Division Requirement for Championship Games
I think the MAC should INCREASE the number of divisions. Buffalo would be in the East and NIU would be in the West - all by themselves. The rest of the schools would be in a new Central division. That way, Buffalo and NIU could play with themselves. Also, it would guarantee that NIU would be division champs yearly. NIU may get tired playing with themselves, but I can assure you that it's not all that bad.
05-19-2022 02:39 PM
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epasnoopy Offline
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RE: NCAAF Proposal to Remove Division Requirement for Championship Games
Source: https://csnbbs.com/thread-947738-post-18...id18241523

(05-19-2022 07:47 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  It's more interesting to me to see how different the CCGs would be under new rules:

Under old format:
2021 - NIU vs. Kent
2020 - Ball State vs. Buffalo
2019 - Central vs. Miami
2018 - NIU vs. Buffalo
2017 - UT vs. Akron
2016 - Western vs. Ohio
2015 - NIU vs. BGSU
2014 - NIU vs. BGSU
2013 - NIU vs. BGSU
2012 - NIU vs. Kent
2011 - NIU vs. Ohio
2010 - NIU vs. Miami

Under no-division format and using current tie-breakers (head to head, then best record if no head to head):
2021 - NIU vs. Central (changed)
2020 - Ball State vs. Buffalo
2019 - Central vs. Miami
2018 - NIU vs. Buffalo
2017 - Toledo vs. Central (changed)
2016 - Western vs. Toledo (changed)
2015 - NIU vs. BGSU
2014 - NIU vs. Toledo (changed)
2013 - NIU vs. coinflip between BGSU and Ball State (potentially changed)
2012 - NIU vs. Kent
2011 - NIU vs. Toledo (changed)
2010 - NIU vs. Miami

So in the last 12 years, the CCG would have been different 5 times, with a potential for a 6th...big changes for sure.
05-19-2022 05:01 PM
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Teamduh Offline
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Post: #27
NCAAF Proposal to Remove Division Requirement for Championship Games
I love your analysis and shows how much they could change.

I would contend that the east being weaker would give NIU more chances to make MACC if NIU played more east teams.

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05-19-2022 05:47 PM
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randyfensfanclub1 Offline
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Post: #28
RE: NCAAF Proposal to Remove Division Requirement for Championship Games
(05-18-2022 02:40 PM)epasnoopy Wrote:  It's official. Now the MAC needs to get rid of football divisions so two best teams can play.


How can you assert this guarantees "2 best teams?" It's 2 teams with least amount of conference losses winning (best winning %) a TBD tiebreaker (head to head, BCS ranking).

Can't wait til teams complain about the unbalanced schedule every year. Someone playing Bama, LSU and Auburn every year vs. perhaps a Vandy, Kentucky and Tennessee. NIU vs. let's say Toledo, WMU and BSU while someone plays Akron, Kent and Bowling Green. PAC10 is doing it for one reason: hoping their crap conference gets a team in the playoffs. SEC hoping they get there standard 2 teams invited every year. That's going to be the line by everyone. G5 perhaps NYD game. Because I can assure NIU isn't ever going to be in a four team playoff or any other playoff w/o auto conference bid.

Funny how we want to cherish and praise a system that is yearly made up of schools we despise and keeps an NIU/MACC and others like us out. Me, give me a battle for a division title every year, promise of a MACC upon having the best record of 6 teams in our division. Not finishing with the third best record behind a Buffalo and Ohio and having to wait an extra 2 weeks before complaining why we are going to Boise or Bahamas.

And just another showing of how much power the NCAA is losing, especially when it comes to the fairy tale BCS playoff they have no oversight of.
(This post was last modified: 05-19-2022 08:32 PM by randyfensfanclub1.)
05-19-2022 08:31 PM
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epasnoopy Offline
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Post: #29
RE: NCAAF Proposal to Remove Division Requirement for Championship Games
The MAC West is and has been stronger than the East for a while. And now even Eastern Michigan, which was long a bad program seems to be better than the bottom two or three teams in the East.

If Toledo, NIU, WMU, or CMU go 11-1 or 12-0 and have to play a 7-5 MAC East team how does that help the conference try to get a top bowl or playoff spot? It doesn't, it's a detriment to the conference and to the MAC team that is having a great season and wants to play in a better game than the Idaho Potato Bowl.
05-20-2022 03:23 AM
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thxjoenovak Offline
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Post: #30
RE: NCAAF Proposal to Remove Division Requirement for Championship Games
(05-19-2022 08:31 PM)randyfensfanclub1 Wrote:  
(05-18-2022 02:40 PM)epasnoopy Wrote:  It's official. Now the MAC needs to get rid of football divisions so two best teams can play.


How can you assert this guarantees "2 best teams?" It's 2 teams with least amount of conference losses winning (best winning %) a TBD tiebreaker (head to head, BCS ranking).

Can't wait til teams complain about the unbalanced schedule every year. Someone playing Bama, LSU and Auburn every year vs. perhaps a Vandy, Kentucky and Tennessee. NIU vs. let's say Toledo, WMU and BSU while someone plays Akron, Kent and Bowling Green. PAC10 is doing it for one reason: hoping their crap conference gets a team in the playoffs. SEC hoping they get there standard 2 teams invited every year. That's going to be the line by everyone. G5 perhaps NYD game. Because I can assure NIU isn't ever going to be in a four team playoff or any other playoff w/o auto conference bid.

Funny how we want to cherish and praise a system that is yearly made up of schools we despise and keeps an NIU/MACC and others like us out. Me, give me a battle for a division title every year, promise of a MACC upon having the best record of 6 teams in our division. Not finishing with the third best record behind a Buffalo and Ohio and having to wait an extra 2 weeks before complaining why we are going to Boise or Bahamas.

And just another showing of how much power the NCAA is losing, especially when it comes to the fairy tale BCS playoff they have no oversight of.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
THIS!
05-20-2022 06:45 AM
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randyfensfanclub1 Offline
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Post: #31
RE: NCAAF Proposal to Remove Division Requirement for Championship Games
(05-20-2022 03:23 AM)epasnoopy Wrote:  The MAC West is and has been stronger than the East for a while. And now even Eastern Michigan, which was long a bad program seems to be better than the bottom two or three teams in the East.

If Toledo, NIU, WMU, or CMU go 11-1 or 12-0 and have to play a 7-5 MAC East team how does that help the conference try to get a top bowl or playoff spot? It doesn't, it's a detriment to the conference and to the MAC team that is having a great season and wants to play in a better game than the Idaho Potato Bowl.

So we make the assumption that playing a better team gets us to a better bowl? Playoff? How often is that happening? I am guessing you win vs. a MAC team isn't catapulting you anywhere, perhaps every blue moon. Guessing they wonderful committee will do as they please post computer era and look at record, OOC more as I think. And like I said, wait til schedules are compared and that will be some real (more) complaining about fairness.

And I guess we could never a assume a team goes through a tough OOC, wins their better division and could be rewarded with a MACC? 1-3 in tough OOC and then 2 conference losses? They couldn't earn that right?

A lot of assumptions at the cost of tossing meaningful divisions. All because everyone wants a part of BCS. Scratch that. Want the BCS money and give the image their league deserves it, can attain it and gives it to their fans.

At what cost?

It's a facade.
05-20-2022 09:09 AM
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Milwaukee Pilot Offline
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Post: #32
RE: NCAAF Proposal to Remove Division Requirement for Championship Games
(05-20-2022 03:23 AM)epasnoopy Wrote:  The MAC West is and has been stronger than the East for a while. And now even Eastern Michigan, which was long a bad program seems to be better than the bottom two or three teams in the East.

If Toledo, NIU, WMU, or CMU go 11-1 or 12-0 and have to play a 7-5 MAC East team how does that help the conference try to get a top bowl or playoff spot? It doesn't, it's a detriment to the conference and to the MAC team that is having a great season and wants to play in a better game than the Idaho Potato Bowl.

We (NIU and MAC) are not going to get top bowl or better playoff spots by beating the "second best" team in a MAC Championship. I'm am sure outside of us two dozen on the forum that nobody else in the country cares about NIU football or MAC football in general.

We are most likely locked into our bowl games via contract and we only get other bowl games because we will have a couple teams finish 6-6 and "qualify" for bowls while much "better" 5-7 or 4-8 teams from the Big Ten, SEC, Pac 12, etc "don't qualify".
05-20-2022 09:54 AM
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pvk75 Offline
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RE: NCAAF Proposal to Remove Division Requirement for Championship Games
^^^ ... is mostly it, when it comes to post-season interest, such as it is (though I would argue four dozen).

Unless an individual team is playing for the NY6/Access Bowl, the "lineup" is likely to include the Bahamas (need passport), the Idaho Potato ("fries with that?!"), Camelia, Frisco (the one in a Texas soccer stadium) and the Quick Lane (where the B1G still doesn't want to play). Plus one or two every-other-year bowls and fill-ins when someone else doesn't have enough qualifiers. Recall, CMU vs Washington State was a last-minute "Covid" change.

The only reason I can see others want no divisions is to get Western Kentucky in. Worth scrapping play for division titles?

With changes to Sun Belt and CUSA, maybe the MAC needs to rework its bowl lineup. Tho not easy, since who else "wants" the IPB at Boise and the Passport Bowl?
(This post was last modified: 05-20-2022 10:17 AM by pvk75.)
05-20-2022 10:15 AM
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Post: #34
RE: NCAAF Proposal to Remove Division Requirement for Championship Games
Im not saying this would be common, but it definitely can matter. And I can tell you exactly when and how it did. 2012 MACC. NIU was #19 and Kent was #18. With the win NIU moved up to #16 and got the automatic bid to the Orange Bowl. BG was 6-2 in conference and was leading Kent in the 4th qt. Had Kent not come back to win that game both teams would have been 7-1 with BG having the tie breaker. At 7-4 BG would not have been ranked and I don't think NIU moves up to 16 with a MACC over them.

Its rare, yes, but if two MACC teams are ranked it could bump the winner into a better bowl. If those teams happen to be in the same division, it can't happen.

Again, I know its a rare and speculative occurrence
05-20-2022 11:44 AM
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Post: #35
RE: NCAAF Proposal to Remove Division Requirement for Championship Games
(05-20-2022 11:44 AM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  Im not saying this would be common, but it definitely can matter. And I can tell you exactly when and how it did. 2012 MACC. NIU was #19 and Kent was #18. With the win NIU moved up to #16 and got the automatic bid to the Orange Bowl. BG was 6-2 in conference and was leading Kent in the 4th qt. Had Kent not come back to win that game both teams would have been 7-1 with BG having the tie breaker. At 7-4 BG would not have been ranked and I don't think NIU moves up to 16 with a MACC over them.

Its rare, yes, but if two MACC teams are ranked it could bump the winner into a better bowl. If those teams happen to be in the same division, it can't happen.

Again, I know its a rare and speculative occurrence

Ah, fun memories.

I remember lurking this site in November 2012 and MD going on a posting spree about how NIU was going to end up in the top-16 and clinch the Orange Bowl. The entire board thought MD was nuts and the speculation was out of control...and then like a dozen stars aligned in the final few weeks for MD to call his shot and NIU Orange Bowl-bound.
05-20-2022 09:13 PM
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Post: #36
RE: NCAAF Proposal to Remove Division Requirement for Championship Games
(05-20-2022 11:44 AM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  Im not saying this would be common, but it definitely can matter. And I can tell you exactly when and how it did. 2012 MACC. NIU was #19 and Kent was #18. With the win NIU moved up to #16 and got the automatic bid to the Orange Bowl. BG was 6-2 in conference and was leading Kent in the 4th qt. Had Kent not come back to win that game both teams would have been 7-1 with BG having the tie breaker. At 7-4 BG would not have been ranked and I don't think NIU moves up to 16 with a MACC over them.

Its rare, yes, but if two MACC teams are ranked it could bump the winner into a better bowl. If those teams happen to be in the same division, it can't happen.

Again, I know its a rare and speculative occurrence

One major difference now. Computers don’t run the rankings.
05-20-2022 11:01 PM
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Rabid Squirrel Offline
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RE: NCAAF Proposal to Remove Division Requirement for Championship Games
(05-20-2022 11:01 PM)randyfensfanclub1 Wrote:  
(05-20-2022 11:44 AM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  Im not saying this would be common, but it definitely can matter. And I can tell you exactly when and how it did. 2012 MACC. NIU was #19 and Kent was #18. With the win NIU moved up to #16 and got the automatic bid to the Orange Bowl. BG was 6-2 in conference and was leading Kent in the 4th qt. Had Kent not come back to win that game both teams would have been 7-1 with BG having the tie breaker. At 7-4 BG would not have been ranked and I don't think NIU moves up to 16 with a MACC over them.

Its rare, yes, but if two MACC teams are ranked it could bump the winner into a better bowl. If those teams happen to be in the same division, it can't happen.

Again, I know its a rare and speculative occurrence

One major difference now. Computers don’t run the rankings.

NIU was #16 in the AP and Coaches poll. The computer didn't matter.
05-21-2022 09:52 AM
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pvk75 Offline
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RE: NCAAF Proposal to Remove Division Requirement for Championship Games
(05-21-2022 09:52 AM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  
(05-20-2022 11:01 PM)randyfensfanclub1 Wrote:  
(05-20-2022 11:44 AM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  Im not saying this would be common, but it definitely can matter. And I can tell you exactly when and how it did. 2012 MACC. NIU was #19 and Kent was #18. With the win NIU moved up to #16 and got the automatic bid to the Orange Bowl. BG was 6-2 in conference and was leading Kent in the 4th qt. Had Kent not come back to win that game both teams would have been 7-1 with BG having the tie breaker. At 7-4 BG would not have been ranked and I don't think NIU moves up to 16 with a MACC over them.

Its rare, yes, but if two MACC teams are ranked it could bump the winner into a better bowl. If those teams happen to be in the same division, it can't happen.

Again, I know its a rare and speculative occurrence

One major difference now. Computers don’t run the rankings.

NIU was #16 in the AP and Coaches poll. The computer didn't matter.

That was then, this is now. And no doubt methodology will change again, given enough P5 complaints, as it did between then and now, as randyfensclub1 pointed out.

Good example of differences when two ranked teams can compete in a CCG without divisions was posted r.e. PAC12 on another board. Not necessary to repeat or link here, since the point is being able to face off two ranked teams in a CCG to benefit bowl assignments and push rankings up will happen much more often in a P5 conference than the MAC. So is it worth scrapping divisions for the rare incidence that Rabid Squirrel cited above?

IMO, no. Division titles may be meaningless to rankings and bowl assignments, but taking away anything to play for, in a conference such as the MAC, is foolish. The MAC needs every element it can get to keep interest going, especially later in the season.
(This post was last modified: 05-21-2022 10:23 AM by pvk75.)
05-21-2022 10:12 AM
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Rabid Squirrel Offline
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Post: #39
RE: NCAAF Proposal to Remove Division Requirement for Championship Games
(05-21-2022 10:12 AM)pvk75 Wrote:  
(05-21-2022 09:52 AM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  
(05-20-2022 11:01 PM)randyfensfanclub1 Wrote:  
(05-20-2022 11:44 AM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  Im not saying this would be common, but it definitely can matter. And I can tell you exactly when and how it did. 2012 MACC. NIU was #19 and Kent was #18. With the win NIU moved up to #16 and got the automatic bid to the Orange Bowl. BG was 6-2 in conference and was leading Kent in the 4th qt. Had Kent not come back to win that game both teams would have been 7-1 with BG having the tie breaker. At 7-4 BG would not have been ranked and I don't think NIU moves up to 16 with a MACC over them.

Its rare, yes, but if two MACC teams are ranked it could bump the winner into a better bowl. If those teams happen to be in the same division, it can't happen.

Again, I know its a rare and speculative occurrence

One major difference now. Computers don’t run the rankings.

NIU was #16 in the AP and Coaches poll. The computer didn't matter.

That was then, this is now. And no doubt methodology will change again, given enough P5 complaints, as it did between then and now, as randyfensclub1 pointed out.

Good example of differences when two ranked teams can compete in a CCG without divisions was posted r.e. PAC12 on another board. Not necessary to repeat or link here, since the point is being able to face off two ranked teams in a CCG to benefit bowl assignments and push rankings up will happen much more often in a P5 conference than the MAC. So is it worth scrapping divisions for the rare incidence that Rabid Squirrel cited above?

IMO, no. Division titles may be meaningless to rankings and bowl assignments, but taking away anything to play for, in a conference such as the MAC, is foolish. The MAC needs every element it can get to keep interest going, especially later in the season.

Yeah, its really not a MAC issue. It's a P5 elite teams money grab. I don't care too much about division titles. All that means to me is that we get a shot at the conference champ. A division title without a conference title is just a 2nd place trophy. It's nice but feels unfinished. Two divisions definitely benefits the weaker teams/divisions. And conference records are slightly skewed if you get to play the worst teams every season. I think its fair to say a East team that went 6-2 in conference may have gone 5-3 or even 4-4 if their conference games featured 5 west teams instead of 5 east teams. No divisions benefits NIU, Tol, CMU,WMU. 2 divisions benefits Ohio, Miami, and Buffalo. The remaining it has almost no impact except maybe once a decade
05-21-2022 11:05 AM
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RE: NCAAF Proposal to Remove Division Requirement for Championship Games
https://theathletic.com/news/mountain-we...8l6nymiJK/

Quote:The Mountain West has become the second Football Bowl Subdivision conference to eliminate divisions this spring, the league announced Friday. The 12-team conference's division-less format will take effect in 2023.
05-21-2022 11:42 AM
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