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Post: #261
RE: Derek Chauvin Trial
(04-09-2021 03:24 PM)CrimsonPhantom Wrote:  Chauvin Trial Day 9 Wrap-Up: Medical Experts Resuscitate Prosecution Case

Just skimmed, but it looks for a pretty good read for someone who wants detail on what is being presented.

Seems like the prosecution's case is to pour so much evidence at the jury that they may pick the most emotional. Its hard to keep straight all the evidence on a long trial. But it seems like what we've seen so far just from the prosecution is enough for reasonable doubt. Still, unless you hear everything, you can't really make a good judgement.
04-10-2021 08:21 AM
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Post: #262
RE: Derek Chauvin Trial
(04-10-2021 08:21 AM)bullet Wrote:  Seems like the prosecution's case is to pour so much evidence at the jury that they may pick the most emotional. Its hard to keep straight all the evidence on a long trial. But it seems like what we've seen so far just from the prosecution is enough for reasonable doubt. Still, unless you hear everything, you can't really make a good judgement.

That's the prosecution strategy in a lot of cases. Make the jury hate the defendant so much that they will believe any crime you allege.

If the defense can get the jury to focus on the actual evidence, the usual result is not guilty.
04-10-2021 09:05 AM
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Post: #263
RE: Derek Chauvin Trial
(04-10-2021 09:05 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-10-2021 08:21 AM)bullet Wrote:  Seems like the prosecution's case is to pour so much evidence at the jury that they may pick the most emotional. Its hard to keep straight all the evidence on a long trial. But it seems like what we've seen so far just from the prosecution is enough for reasonable doubt. Still, unless you hear everything, you can't really make a good judgement.

That's the prosecution strategy in a lot of cases. Make the jury hate the defendant so much that they will believe any crime you allege.

If the defense can get the jury to focus on the actual evidence, the usual result is not guilty.

The downside is that after a while you start to hate the prosecution attorney for dragging it out. And you catch them in one lie, everything they say starts getting discredited.
04-10-2021 09:36 AM
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CrimsonPhantom Offline
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Post: #264
RE: Derek Chauvin Trial
Quote:Let’s first agree on one thing. In the eyes of the left, “justice for George Floyd” doesn’t mean “justice” any more than “justice for Michael Brown,” “justice for Trayvon Martin,” or “justice” for any other person of color who was shot or otherwise died during a police action.

The phrase itself says it all. Correctly said, it is simply “justice.” Period. It stands on its own. “Justice” is not for or against anyone. Not even against those the left long ago prejudged and convicted of murder. Now that we have that out of the way, let’s continue.

So what do we know?

We know that George Floyd died in police custody with officer Derek Chauvin’s knee on his neck. It’s on video. It’s beyond difficult to watch all the way through. We also know from other video that Floyd was under duress and began to say “I can’t breathe” before he was on the ground or even touched. And, that a jury is now in the process of hearing both sides of the case and will ultimately be asked to render justice.

Now, imagine the jury.

Seating a jury that can objectively hear both sides of this case. People who have seen the video, listened to the rhetoric, and with the knowledge that Floyd’s death led to a summer of burning and rioting across America. Also knowing how they rule could lead to more rioting. Scratch that. Will lead to additional riots —as we have seen play out time and again in the aftermath of major league sports championships.

Either way, Tiffany Cross, host of MSNBC’s “The Cross Connection,” and regular contributor Elie Mystal, of all people, the “justice correspondent” for the left-wing rag “The Nation” had a “slightly different” take on Saturday.

As “justice correspondent” Mystal sees it, he’s afraid the jury is comprised of people too “ignorant” to convict Chauvin. The reason being, as Mystal seems to suggest, the prosecution presented such an air-tight case, that now listening to the defense can only be judged as “ignorant” — and of course, “racist,” but isn’t everything?

“The testimony that the prosecution has put on from the other police officers should, to my mind, blunt this defense argument that Chauvin behaved like a reasonable cop. Literally, other cops are saying that he didn’t.

“But then we have to think about the jury. And you have to remember, this jury has been seeded with ignorance.

“It’s been seeded with people who either did not see the video, which is almost impossible to do in this country, or, saw the video and couldn’t decide if sometimes, maybe black people do need to be choked to death for eight minutes and forty-six seconds.

“Maybe they had it coming!”

Wait — what?

So those are the people that we’re talking to here. It’s not talking to me; it’s not trying to convince you. That ship sailed long ago.

“They’re trying to convince 12 people that have been picked specifically for not knowing things. And so, that’s what — that’s what frightens me. No, they don’t need to put Chauvin on the stand. They need one juror to refuse to see a reason.

Again, this guy is a justice correspondent. Boggles the mind. Except it doesn’t. Mr. Mystal is apparently so blinded by hatred for America’s law enforcement officers — if not white people in general — he is incapable of even coming close to understanding the mockery he makes of justice.

To be sure, Elie Mystal is irrelevant. In the larger picture. But Mystal did play the role of Saturday’s hood ornament of the dishonest clown car across a divided nation, chanting in unison: “Justice for George Floyd!”

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04-11-2021 12:42 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #265
RE: Derek Chauvin Trial
Justice for George Floyd would mean bringing him back to life. There protesters don't want justice for George Floyd, they want vindictiveness and retribution designed to tear us further apart.
04-11-2021 12:53 PM
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shere khan Offline
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Post: #266
RE: Derek Chauvin Trial
Idiot cop and a dead crack head in a shithole city.

Sorry. Dont care.

07-coffee3
(This post was last modified: 04-11-2021 01:58 PM by shere khan.)
04-11-2021 01:58 PM
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Post: #267
RE: Derek Chauvin Trial
(04-11-2021 01:58 PM)shere khan Wrote:  Idiot cop and a dead crack head in a shithole city.

Sorry. Dont care.

07-coffee3

While I agree with the sentiment - the cause and effect to our cities that is most certainly coming is concerning.

Maybe this was part of the Biden Infrastructure plan? Rehabilitating the construction industry by allowing 100's of billions of damage to occur? Someone has to fix this stuff once it is all burned down and broken.
04-12-2021 08:27 AM
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Post: #268
RE: Derek Chauvin Trial
(04-11-2021 01:58 PM)shere khan Wrote:  Idiot cop and a dead crack head in a shithole city.

Sorry. Dont care.

07-coffee3

while I disagree with the presentation... this.

Cops like Chauvin, or at least opportunities for cops like Chauvin to 'do the wrong thing' (whether intentionally or not) wouldn't exist (or would exist vastly less frequently) if we didn't need so many of them to address the issues that criminals create.
(This post was last modified: 04-12-2021 09:16 AM by Hambone10.)
04-12-2021 09:16 AM
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Eldonabe Offline
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Post: #269
RE: Derek Chauvin Trial
(04-12-2021 09:16 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Cops like Chauvin, or at least opportunities for cops like Chauvin to 'do the wrong thing' (whether intentionally or not) wouldn't exist (or would exist vastly less frequently) if we didn't need so many of them to address the issues that criminals create.

Now you are playing the chicken and egg game Hambone..... What came first the Cop or the Felons? It is a vicious circle of blame and response....
04-12-2021 10:39 AM
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Post: #270
RE: Derek Chauvin Trial


Quote:aturday Night Live‘s cold open this weekend featured an imaginary panel discussion between four news anchors in Minnesota — two black, two white — in which all assumed that Derek Chauvin was guilty of murdering George Floyd, and merely disagreed about whether the state was racist enough for a jury to acquit him.

The joke: the white panelists presumed naïvely that Chauvin would be found guilty, while the black panelists were skeptical of the justice system, and of Minnesota itself.

All agreed Chauvin was guilty, and that the prosecution was solid.





“The video footage alone should tell you everything you need to know about what happened,” one of the white anchors said; the black anchors called Chauvin’s defense “deplorable,” saying that raising Floyd’s drug use was an “act of desperation.”

That may reflect the mainstream media consensus, but it does not reflect reality in the courtroom, where the defense spent all week poking holes in the prosecution’s arguments.

The sketch lampooned the supposed racial differences in outlook about the police and the justice system — even among the apparently liberal white journalists. At one point, the two sides turned to the black weatherman for his view, and he said that while, “obviously, it’s an open-and-shut case,” the fact that Chauvin is “a white cop in Minnesota” would be decisive.

One of the black anchors mocked one of her white colleagues throughout by referring to his surname, “Jorgensen.”

At one point, the white anchors suggested that non-violent protest was preferable to destroying property; the black panelists disagreed: “It’s just property”; “There’s insurance.”

All agreed that there is a “glaring discrepancy in the way black people are treated by police.”

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04-12-2021 11:18 AM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #271
RE: Derek Chauvin Trial
(04-12-2021 10:39 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  
(04-12-2021 09:16 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Cops like Chauvin, or at least opportunities for cops like Chauvin to 'do the wrong thing' (whether intentionally or not) wouldn't exist (or would exist vastly less frequently) if we didn't need so many of them to address the issues that criminals create.

Now you are playing the chicken and egg game Hambone..... What came first the Cop or the Felons? It is a vicious circle of blame and response....

??

I think it pretty obvious that the first crimes were committed without the presence of police.... and if we had cops with nothing else to do, there would be calls to reduce the size of the forces. We didn't hire sherriffs simply to increase employment, but to reduce the incidence of crimes.

The 'defund' people now aren't looking to reduce the size of the force, merely to reduce their authority and firepower... or change their job descriptions. People with their cameras who are challenging the cops at every turn are technically police themselves... so they're actually arguing for MORE, not fewer police.

Are you suggesting that we created police in response to non-existent fears about crimes?
04-12-2021 11:31 AM
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Post: #272
RE: Derek Chauvin Trial
(04-12-2021 09:16 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(04-11-2021 01:58 PM)shere khan Wrote:  Idiot cop and a dead crack head in a shithole city.

Sorry. Dont care.

07-coffee3

while I disagree with the presentation... this.

Cops like Chauvin, or at least opportunities for cops like Chauvin to 'do the wrong thing' (whether intentionally or not) wouldn't exist (or would exist vastly less frequently) if we didn't need so many of them to address the issues that criminals create.

for shites and giggles, let's extrapolate...

in any version of education, there are only a handful of mensa, a boatload of average, and the remainder...

today's issue is the average are trending downward instead of being trained forward...

@inNutshell
04-12-2021 12:13 PM
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Post: #273
RE: Derek Chauvin Trial
(04-12-2021 12:13 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  
(04-12-2021 09:16 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(04-11-2021 01:58 PM)shere khan Wrote:  Idiot cop and a dead crack head in a shithole city.

Sorry. Dont care.

07-coffee3

while I disagree with the presentation... this.

Cops like Chauvin, or at least opportunities for cops like Chauvin to 'do the wrong thing' (whether intentionally or not) wouldn't exist (or would exist vastly less frequently) if we didn't need so many of them to address the issues that criminals create.

for shites and giggles, let's extrapolate...

in any version of education, there are only a handful of mensa, a boatload of average, and the remainder...

today's issue is the average are trending downward instead of being trained forward...

@inNutshell

“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”

― George Carlin
04-12-2021 12:30 PM
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Post: #274
RE: Derek Chauvin Trial


04-12-2021 12:38 PM
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CrimsonPhantom Offline
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Post: #275
RE: Derek Chauvin Trial
The Derek Chauvin Murder Trial -- Where It Stands After Two Weeks of Testimony


Quote:Former Minneapolis Police Officer Derek Chauvin’s placement of his knee across the neck and upper back of George Floyd played no role in the death of Floyd.

That should be the top-line takeaway from the first two weeks of the murder trial of Chauvin, as that fact was testified to by the top medical expert called by the prosecution, Dr. Martin Tobin.

After a string of embarrassing expert witnesses whose testimony helped Chauvin more than it helped the prosecution, Dr. Tobin took the stand and testified with regard to his opinions about what caused the death of Floyd. During his testimony, he clearly stated that the positioning of Chavin’s knee had little or no effect on Floyd in connection with the mechanism which caused his death.

For more than 10 months, the media reporting on this incident and the police and prosecution demonizing the conduct of Chauvin have focused public attention on Chauvin’s knee. The prosecution put witnesses on the stand who called what Chauvin did a “blood choke” leading to Floyd’s loss of consciousness and death. Others described the shock and horror they experienced watching Floyd die on the street while Chauvin’s knee pinned his head to the asphalt.

And it was all simply wrong — and the prosecutors knew it was wrong because they knew what their expert was going to say. But they put on the false evidence anyway.

They knew from the autopsy report leaked in the summer of 2020 that Floyd’s airway showed no signs of damage and his breathing was never impaired in that respect. They knew he had not suffered a loss of blood flow to the brain from Chauvin’s knee — rudimentary understanding of a carotid artery chokehold includes knowing that both arteries need to be constricted at the same time to induce someone to pass out and that such a result happens in a matter of seconds, not minutes as was the case on that street in Minneapolis.

As Dr. Tobin explained, Floyd died as a result of the position of his body on a hard surface, the fact he was handcuffed behind his back, and because the four officers at various points in time were using their body weight to pin him to the ground in order to keep him from moving. The combination of these factors caused a decrease in the ability of Floyd’s lungs to expand and contract to take in oxygen. The reduced intake of oxygen into his lungs led to a gradual reduction in brain activity over the few minutes he was kept in that position — as Dr. Tobin explained, brain function consumes 20% of all the oxygen taken in via the lungs. As Floyd’s oxygen intake decreased his brain function declined — including the brain’s signals through the nervous system to Floyd’s respiratory system to breathe. This problem grew gradually worse until he simply stopped breathing altogether. This respiratory arrest led to a heart attack which killed him while he was on the street.

Dr. Tobin is a widely recognized expert who testifies in civil litigation across the country as part of his medical practice which is based in Chicago. The prosecution knew what his testimony would be far in advance of him taking the stand — but only delivered to Chauvin’s attorney the slides and video that would be used by the prosecution the night before he took the stand.

While the media has legal commentators have focused on Dr. Tobin’s testimony and how it points the finger of blame at Chauvin — and the other three officers as well — one aspect of this issue that has received little if any attention. The law provides that even if Chauvin’s conduct was a “substantial contributing factor” in Floyd’s death, Chauvin is still not guilty of any crime unless the prosecution ALSO PROVES that Chauvin’s conduct was “wrongful”. In other words, shooting and killing a suspect is not “wrongful” when the suspect poses a threat of great bodily injury to the officer. The same rationale holds true if Chauvin’s actions towards Floyd were not “wrongful” — a standard which is based on the “totality of circumstances” and based on what a “reasonable officer” in the same situation would have done.

Dr. Tobin’s testimony takes Chauvin’s use of his knee out of the equation. Finding Chauvin guilty is going to come down to a question of whether the specific acts that impaired Floyd’s breathing were “unreasonable” and thereby “wrongful” under a totality of the circumstances. Based on Dr. Tobin’s testimony, that is going to focus on three main issues — 1) that Floyd was on a hard surface in a face-down position, 2) that Floyd was handcuffed behind his back, and 3) that Chauvin and the other officers used their body weight at different times to keep Floyd pinned down to the ground while they waited for EMS to arrive.

To convict Chauvin of “second degree” murder, the jury will be instructed that they must find that “Chauvin intended to kill Floyd”, in that he acted “with the purpose of causing death and believed the act would cause that result.”

There is simply no evidence presented anywhere in the prosecution’s case that would support such a finding, and I would not be surprised if the Judge dismissed this count when the prosecution rests its case.

To convict Chauvin of “third degree” murder, the jury will be instructed that they must find that Chauvin’s “intentional act was imminently dangerous to human beings and was performed without regard for human life.”

Again, the “knee on the neck” is no longer an issue based on Dr. Tobin’s testimony. It was the other three factors that led to Floyd’s inability to breath — being handcuffed in a prone position with Chauvin using body weight to keep him from moving. How will the prosecution argue to the jury that it was “imminently dangerous” and “without regard for human life” when those three tactics are taught to officers as part of their training? Was there a bad outcome in this particular episode? No question. But an atypical bad outcome in this episode is NOT evidence that the actions of Chauvin were “imminently dangerous” or done “without regard for human life.” I would not be surprised if the Judge dismissed this count as well based on the trial evidence.

That leaves the state with the manslaughter charge — a killing of another person by way of a culpably negligent act. To convict Chauvin of manslaughter, the jury will be instructed that they must find that Chauvin’s conduct created an unreasonable risk and that he took a chance of causing death or great bodily harm to Floyd. Chauvin’s conduct must have been intentional, and he may not have intended harm to Floyd, but an ordinary and reasonably prudent officer in the same circumstances would have recognized the strong probability of causing harm to Floyd from the conduct.

As with the murder charges, Chauvin’s knee is not an issue — Dr. Tobin said his analysis was that it did not play a role in Floyd’s inability to breathe.

This is where the “use of force” experts called before the medical experts have greatly undermined the prosecution. You would not know this if you only listened to the direct examination or the media coverage of the direct examination. The cross-examination of those experts by Chauvin’s defense attorney was excellent, and he obtained admissions from all of them that there were circumstances present during the process of Floyd’s arrest and detention that altered the conclusion about what a “reasonable officer” would be expected to do in Chauvin’s position.

Direct examination is ALWAYS effective because it is rehearsed. The prosecutor and the expert have carefully gone over the expert’s opinions, and the questions and answers are carefully scripted out so the jury hears exactly what the prosecutor wants the jury to hear. But an expert’s opinions are only as good as their ability to withstand scrutiny under cross-examination. Every “use of force” expert called by the prosecution took multiple hits when the “unfriendly” questions began. I’m not going to recount them here, but if you want an excellent and detailed analysis, I suggest you listen to the podcasts done last week by attorney Andrew Branca. He’s on Twitter under @LawSelfDefense, and is posting daily blogs about the testimony at Legal Insurrection.

Branca makes it clear that the national media reporting that most are seeing is solely focused on what the experts testified to on direct examination, and are completely ignoring the other evidence the jury is hearing that has dismantled in many ways the carefully presented narrative of the direct exam testimony.

As Branca indicates, in some instances it’s simply a matter of the witness not being properly prepared — or not having any real expertise at all — and in other instances is simply a matter that obvious and plain evidence cannot be ignored as if it didn’t exist. For a simple example — Floyd is on the ground and handcuffed behind his back because Floyd refused to remain in the backseat of the police car where the officers had attempted to secure him, and his medical distress claims meant, pursuant to MPD policy, that the officers had to leave him outside the car while waiting for EMS to arrive. This fact was never mentioned during direct examination by the expert, but he was forced to concede the officers’ actions were consistent with MPD policy under cross-examination.

Branca offers numerous other examples and points out that it is always a bad sign when the defense attorney keeps the prosecution’s expert on the witness stand for a substantial period of time longer than the witness testified for the prosecution.

What will happen? What should happen on the evidence is that Chauvin should be acquitted on all the counts because there is no evidence that the actions he took which contributed to Floyd’s medical emergency that led to his death were “wrongful” in that they were all “reasonable” under the circumstances based on Chauvin’s training and experience.

It’s a matter of EVIDENCE, not pithy sloganeering.

Even if convicted, what should happen is that his conviction should be tossed aside because this has been a fundamentally unfair trial process by Fifth and Sixth Amendment standards. If he is convicted, at some point in the future a detached appeals court — most likely a federal appeals court — will take note of all the biased and unfair procedures that have been employed by Minnesota against Chauvin, and find that he was denied “due process” under the United States Constitution.

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04-12-2021 06:28 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #276
RE: Derek Chauvin Trial
(04-11-2021 01:58 PM)shere khan Wrote:  Idiot cop and a dead crack head in a shithole city.

Sorry. Dont care.

07-coffee3

Pretty much. Floyd was a POS and Chauvin was a mile away from what should be on the street as a peace officer.
04-12-2021 08:37 PM
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Post: #277
RE: Derek Chauvin Trial
He's going to Walk. 03-yawn
04-13-2021 02:31 PM
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No2rdame Offline
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Post: #278
RE: Derek Chauvin Trial
(04-13-2021 02:31 PM)Redbanksdog Wrote:  He's going to Walk. 03-yawn

That I doubt. Whether there is sufficient evidence to prove him guilty doesn't even matter. The mob has spoken.
04-13-2021 02:35 PM
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BartlettTigerFan Offline
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Post: #279
RE: Derek Chauvin Trial
(04-13-2021 02:35 PM)No2rdame Wrote:  
(04-13-2021 02:31 PM)Redbanksdog Wrote:  He's going to Walk. 03-yawn

That I doubt. Whether there is sufficient evidence to prove him guilty doesn't even matter. The mob has spoken.

He'll eventually walk on appeal if nothing else.
04-13-2021 02:37 PM
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Native Georgian Offline
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Post: #280
RE: Derek Chauvin Trial
(04-13-2021 02:37 PM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  
(04-13-2021 02:35 PM)No2rdame Wrote:  
(04-13-2021 02:31 PM)Redbanksdog Wrote:  He's going to Walk. 03-yawn

That I doubt. Whether there is sufficient evidence to prove him guilty doesn't even matter. The mob has spoken.

He'll eventually walk on appeal if nothing else.
That could be 2 years down the road.

Q: if *You* were on that jury and Chauvin was acquitted, would you trust the court to keep your identity confidential? And if you wouldn’t trust the court to do that, would that influence your vote? Those are some of the questions those jurors will have to grapple with in deliberations.

My honest hunch — just guessing here, nothing more — is he will be acquitted of the murder counts but go down on manslaughter. It does not matter what the definition of manslaughter is under Minnesota law. I believe the jury will be looking to split the baby.
04-13-2021 02:49 PM
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