(09-15-2019 12:38 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(09-14-2019 06:54 PM)EvilVodka Wrote:  

(09-14-2019 06:46 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  With the Arizona State win over Michigan State, the Big Ten is 0-3 against the Pac-12. Throw in the Temple victory over Maryland and the EMU victory over Illinois, and it is easy to see that the Big Ten is by far not the best conference.

No, the Big 10 has had a hideous weekend so far. But collectively after week 3, who is better?
I'm willing to put the Big XII at the top if Iowa State wins

I think the Big 12 has clearly been better than the B1G.

That may be true, but they are clearly not better than the SEC. Besides the fact that the SEC has the most talent of any FBS conference, they dominate the top ten rankings:

https://sports.yahoo.com/ap-top-25-cal-a...ncaaf.html

For a second straight week, the Southeastern Conference has three top-five teams and half of the top 10.

SEC - 6 (Nos. 2, 3, 4, 8, 9, 17).
Pac-12 - 6 (Nos. 10, 16, 19, 22, 23, 24)
Big Ten - 5 (Nos. 6, 11, 13, 13 (tie), 18).
Big 12 - 3 (Nos. 5, 12, 25).
ACC - 2 (Nos. 1, 21).

Here is an interesting article on the possibility of three SEC schools in the playoffs:
https://www.cbssports.com/college-footba...l-playoff/

The SEC is the one conference that has an opportunity to get more than one school in. No other conference could get more than one school in the playoffs, if that. The Big 12 had a good week, but Iowa State did lose to Iowa and Arizona rolled over Texas Tech, 28-14.

(09-15-2019 04:20 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 12:38 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(09-14-2019 06:54 PM)EvilVodka Wrote:  

(09-14-2019 06:46 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  With the Arizona State win over Michigan State, the Big Ten is 0-3 against the Pac-12. Throw in the Temple victory over Maryland and the EMU victory over Illinois, and it is easy to see that the Big Ten is by far not the best conference.

No, the Big 10 has had a hideous weekend so far. But collectively after week 3, who is better?
I'm willing to put the Big XII at the top if Iowa State wins

I think the Big 12 has clearly been better than the B1G.

That may be true, but they are clearly not better than the SEC. Besides the fact that the SEC has the most talent of any FBS conference, they dominate the top ten rankings:

The problem the SEC has is that for every Alabama or Auburn or LSU, it also has a Vandy, an Ole Miss, and an Arkansas.

The SEC has lost a lot of P5 vs P5 matchups. Just because it has won the high-profile ones (or most of them) doesn't mean we can ignore the failures.

it's the age old question. Are you measured by your depth, or are you measured by your better teams. I personally think it's more your better teams.

(09-15-2019 04:59 PM)stever20 Wrote:  it's the age old question. Are you measured by your depth, or are you measured by your better teams. I personally think it's more your better teams.

Well we might as well just say whatever conference wins the national title is the best. So the ACC was best last year and is best right now, because Clemson is #1.

That's silly of course. It's not a real question - all the teams in a conference have to count the same. You can't just ignore teams just because you don't like that they are bad.

(09-15-2019 05:10 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 04:59 PM)stever20 Wrote:  it's the age old question. Are you measured by your depth, or are you measured by your better teams. I personally think it's more your better teams.

Well we might as well just say whatever conference wins the national title is the best. So the ACC was best last year and is best right now, because Clemson is #1.

That's silly of course. It's not a real question - all the teams in a conference have to count the same. You can't just ignore teams just because you don't like that they are bad.

conferences aren't really viewed at based on the worst 2-3 teams. They're looked at based on how the best teams are....

(09-15-2019 05:10 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 04:59 PM)stever20 Wrote:  it's the age old question. Are you measured by your depth, or are you measured by your better teams. I personally think it's more your better teams.

Well we might as well just say whatever conference wins the national title is the best. So the ACC was best last year and is best right now, because Clemson is #1.

That's silly of course. It's not a real question - all the teams in a conference have to count the same. You can't just ignore teams just because you don't like that they are bad.

There is an argument to make about the bottom five in each conference and which is the worst. The SEC is not the worst of the bottom five. But they are clearly the best of the top five of each conference.

(09-15-2019 06:04 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 05:10 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 04:59 PM)stever20 Wrote:  it's the age old question. Are you measured by your depth, or are you measured by your better teams. I personally think it's more your better teams.

Well we might as well just say whatever conference wins the national title is the best. So the ACC was best last year and is best right now, because Clemson is #1.

That's silly of course. It's not a real question - all the teams in a conference have to count the same. You can't just ignore teams just because you don't like that they are bad.

There is an argument to make about the bottom five in each conference and which is the worst. The SEC is not the worst of the bottom five. But they are clearly the best of the top five of each conference.

Actually, one of the strongest arguments that can be made about a conference is the stregth of its weakest members. Over the last five years, the SEC has not only not had the weakest bottom five, it has had the strongest. Among P5 conferences, the B1G's bottom five has been the weakest, and it's not even close.

The university and its athletic program I am the most passionate about is a member of the SEC. But there is so much about the SEC "goofball/nerd fan" and "apologist" culture and supporters that I find more off-putting than the music of Florida-Georgia Line. There is so much about the entire vibe that borders on disturbing.

Having said that, I realize (and acknowledge), the SEC is generally the best football league from top to bottom (attendance, total wins, Top 25 teams, culture, budgets, etc.) from year to year. I would smugly revel in the experience of seeing the conference "tank" one season and hear the SEC fanboys lamely offer their excuses. But the chances of that happening are slim. SEC football is dominant. We should all accept that reality (myself included).

(09-15-2019 05:12 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 05:10 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 04:59 PM)stever20 Wrote:  it's the age old question. Are you measured by your depth, or are you measured by your better teams. I personally think it's more your better teams.

Well we might as well just say whatever conference wins the national title is the best. So the ACC was best last year and is best right now, because Clemson is #1.

That's silly of course. It's not a real question - all the teams in a conference have to count the same. You can't just ignore teams just because you don't like that they are bad.

conferences aren't really viewed at based on the worst 2-3 teams. They're looked at based on how the best teams are....

Who is "they"? Lol

The sample size is ALL the teams in the conference. Losses to Georgia State, Wyoming, and Memphis count

That is what is impressive with the Big XII. Their bottom won P5 road games

(09-15-2019 08:44 PM)EvilVodka Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 05:12 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 05:10 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 04:59 PM)stever20 Wrote:  it's the age old question. Are you measured by your depth, or are you measured by your better teams. I personally think it's more your better teams.

Well we might as well just say whatever conference wins the national title is the best. So the ACC was best last year and is best right now, because Clemson is #1.

That's silly of course. It's not a real question - all the teams in a conference have to count the same. You can't just ignore teams just because you don't like that they are bad.

conferences aren't really viewed at based on the worst 2-3 teams. They're looked at based on how the best teams are....

Who is "they"? Lol

The sample size is ALL the teams in the conference. Losses to Georgia State, Wyoming, and Memphis count

That is what is impressive with the Big XII. Their bottom won P5 road games

road losses to Wyoming and Memphis aren't bad losses....

The Big 12's problem is who have they really beaten? Their P5 wins- Boston College, NC State, Purdue, Oregon St, UCLA, and Miss St. Compare that to the SEC and who they've beaten already. Miami, Duke, West Virginia, Texas, and Oregon.

Big 12 has exactly ZERO quality wins.

(09-15-2019 08:56 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 08:44 PM)EvilVodka Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 05:12 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 05:10 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 04:59 PM)stever20 Wrote:  it's the age old question. Are you measured by your depth, or are you measured by your better teams. I personally think it's more your better teams.

Well we might as well just say whatever conference wins the national title is the best. So the ACC was best last year and is best right now, because Clemson is #1.

That's silly of course. It's not a real question - all the teams in a conference have to count the same. You can't just ignore teams just because you don't like that they are bad.

conferences aren't really viewed at based on the worst 2-3 teams. They're looked at based on how the best teams are....

Who is "they"? Lol

The sample size is ALL the teams in the conference. Losses to Georgia State, Wyoming, and Memphis count

That is what is impressive with the Big XII. Their bottom won P5 road games

road losses to Wyoming and Memphis aren't bad losses....

The Big 12's problem is who have they really beaten? Their P5 wins- Boston College, NC State, Purdue, Oregon St, UCLA, and Miss St. Compare that to the SEC and who they've beaten already. Miami, Duke, West Virginia, Texas, and Oregon.

Big 12 has exactly ZERO quality wins.

The SEC has two solid wins each by a single score against UT and Oregon. Maybe the margin makes the Duke game a third.

The rest don’t exactly register as any better than beating Purdue (beat Vandy), BC (beat VT), NC state, or Miss State. Also two of the bottom part of the B12 roster this year picked up two of those wins.

It’s early and there’s plenty of football left to be played. Both leagues have mostly done well.

(09-15-2019 09:21 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 08:56 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 08:44 PM)EvilVodka Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 05:12 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 05:10 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Well we might as well just say whatever conference wins the national title is the best. So the ACC was best last year and is best right now, because Clemson is #1.

That's silly of course. It's not a real question - all the teams in a conference have to count the same. You can't just ignore teams just because you don't like that they are bad.

conferences aren't really viewed at based on the worst 2-3 teams. They're looked at based on how the best teams are....

Who is "they"? Lol

The sample size is ALL the teams in the conference. Losses to Georgia State, Wyoming, and Memphis count

That is what is impressive with the Big XII. Their bottom won P5 road games

road losses to Wyoming and Memphis aren't bad losses....

The Big 12's problem is who have they really beaten? Their P5 wins- Boston College, NC State, Purdue, Oregon St, UCLA, and Miss St. Compare that to the SEC and who they've beaten already. Miami, Duke, West Virginia, Texas, and Oregon.

Big 12 has exactly ZERO quality wins.

The SEC has two solid wins each by a single score against UT and Oregon. Maybe the margin makes the Duke game a third.

The rest don’t exactly register as any better than beating Purdue (beat Vandy), BC (beat VT), NC state, or Miss State. Also two of the bottom part of the B12 roster this year picked up two of those wins.

It’s early and there’s plenty of football left to be played. Both leagues have mostly done well.

ah yes that dumb logic, you take away the 2 best wins of anyone in the country, and then it's not so great. Sorry but you can't take away the 2 best wins like they didn't happen. There are 4 teams in the AP top 25 with a loss. Those 2 wins, and Clemson over Texas A&M are the only 3 OOC games(other one was Cal over Washington).

(09-15-2019 09:27 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 09:21 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 08:56 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 08:44 PM)EvilVodka Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 05:12 PM)stever20 Wrote:  conferences aren't really viewed at based on the worst 2-3 teams. They're looked at based on how the best teams are....

Who is "they"? Lol

The sample size is ALL the teams in the conference. Losses to Georgia State, Wyoming, and Memphis count

That is what is impressive with the Big XII. Their bottom won P5 road games

road losses to Wyoming and Memphis aren't bad losses....

The Big 12's problem is who have they really beaten? Their P5 wins- Boston College, NC State, Purdue, Oregon St, UCLA, and Miss St. Compare that to the SEC and who they've beaten already. Miami, Duke, West Virginia, Texas, and Oregon.

Big 12 has exactly ZERO quality wins.

The SEC has two solid wins each by a single score against UT and Oregon. Maybe the margin makes the Duke game a third.

The rest don’t exactly register as any better than beating Purdue (beat Vandy), BC (beat VT), NC state, or Miss State. Also two of the bottom part of the B12 roster this year picked up two of those wins.

It’s early and there’s plenty of football left to be played. Both leagues have mostly done well.

ah yes that dumb logic, you take away the 2 best wins of anyone in the country, and then it's not so great. Sorry but you can't take away the 2 best wins like they didn't happen. There are 4 teams in the AP top 25 with a loss. Those 2 wins, and Clemson over Texas A&M are the only 3 OOC games(other one was Cal over Washington).

If they were convincing wins I’d be more apt to stand in awe of the league. As it is both were fortunate by teams with some questions about their teams. LSU gave up 50 yards per drive to Texas and were a couple late from a loss against a UT team that will likely lose twice in Big 12 play IMO. The SEC is in rightfully first place but the Big 12 has put a solid OOC together outside of a couple close disappointing losses in UT-LSU and Cy-Hawk.

(09-15-2019 09:30 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 09:27 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 09:21 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 08:56 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 08:44 PM)EvilVodka Wrote:  Who is "they"? Lol

The sample size is ALL the teams in the conference. Losses to Georgia State, Wyoming, and Memphis count

That is what is impressive with the Big XII. Their bottom won P5 road games

road losses to Wyoming and Memphis aren't bad losses....

The Big 12's problem is who have they really beaten? Their P5 wins- Boston College, NC State, Purdue, Oregon St, UCLA, and Miss St. Compare that to the SEC and who they've beaten already. Miami, Duke, West Virginia, Texas, and Oregon.

Big 12 has exactly ZERO quality wins.

The SEC has two solid wins each by a single score against UT and Oregon. Maybe the margin makes the Duke game a third.

The rest don’t exactly register as any better than beating Purdue (beat Vandy), BC (beat VT), NC state, or Miss State. Also two of the bottom part of the B12 roster this year picked up two of those wins.

It’s early and there’s plenty of football left to be played. Both leagues have mostly done well.

ah yes that dumb logic, you take away the 2 best wins of anyone in the country, and then it's not so great. Sorry but you can't take away the 2 best wins like they didn't happen. There are 4 teams in the AP top 25 with a loss. Those 2 wins, and Clemson over Texas A&M are the only 3 OOC games(other one was Cal over Washington).

If they were convincing wins I’d be more apt to stand in awe of the league. As it is both were fortunate by teams with some questions about their teams. LSU gave up 50 yards per drive to Texas and were a couple late from a loss against a UT team that will likely lose twice in Big 12 play IMO. The SEC is in rightfully first place but the Big 12 has put a solid OOC together outside of a couple close disappointing losses in UT-LSU and Cy-Hawk.

The Big 12 has exactly zero wins that are going to stand out at the end of the year. And that's dumb as hell to say well LSU gave up 50 yards per drive vs Texas- when everyone in the big 12 is going to give up to them 70 yards per drive vs them.... Both Oregon and Texas are going to be easily top 20 wins, if not better at the end of the season.

(09-15-2019 09:36 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 09:30 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 09:27 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 09:21 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  

(09-15-2019 08:56 PM)stever20 Wrote:  road losses to Wyoming and Memphis aren't bad losses....

The Big 12's problem is who have they really beaten? Their P5 wins- Boston College, NC State, Purdue, Oregon St, UCLA, and Miss St. Compare that to the SEC and who they've beaten already. Miami, Duke, West Virginia, Texas, and Oregon.

Big 12 has exactly ZERO quality wins.

The SEC has two solid wins each by a single score against UT and Oregon. Maybe the margin makes the Duke game a third.

The rest don’t exactly register as any better than beating Purdue (beat Vandy), BC (beat VT), NC state, or Miss State. Also two of the bottom part of the B12 roster this year picked up two of those wins.

It’s early and there’s plenty of football left to be played. Both leagues have mostly done well.

ah yes that dumb logic, you take away the 2 best wins of anyone in the country, and then it's not so great. Sorry but you can't take away the 2 best wins like they didn't happen. There are 4 teams in the AP top 25 with a loss. Those 2 wins, and Clemson over Texas A&M are the only 3 OOC games(other one was Cal over Washington).

If they were convincing wins I’d be more apt to stand in awe of the league. As it is both were fortunate by teams with some questions about their teams. LSU gave up 50 yards per drive to Texas and were a couple late from a loss against a UT team that will likely lose twice in Big 12 play IMO. The SEC is in rightfully first place but the Big 12 has put a solid OOC together outside of a couple close disappointing losses in UT-LSU and Cy-Hawk.

The Big 12 has exactly zero wins that are going to stand out at the end of the year.

When the league as a whole has done as well as they have it’s hard to argue against their champ being included with fewer than two losses which is about as far as the real world application of this all goes. Unless it’s Texas Vs LSU or ISU Vs Iowa for that final spot or some other unique outlier. I certainly wouldn’t argue that the merits of narrowly winning two games would place an SEC runner up over a Big 12 or Big Ten champ at this juncture. Maybe a P12 champ or an ACC champ not named Clemson if the resumes were really weak by those champs.

Everything else is simple discussion fodder and the sec has the nicest wins in that and we don’t disagree there. I’m just not standing in awe of it.

Quote:And that's dumb as hell to say well LSU gave up 50 yards per drive vs Texas- when everyone in the big 12 is going to give up to them 70 yards per drive vs them....

No single game had 70 yards per drive last year bud. It’s highly unlikely either team averages 50+ on half their league foes. For context 37 is a pretty good day for an offense in yards per drive and Oregon State’s disastrous 2018 defense averaged allowing 51 as arguably the worst in the nation. There is very little defensible about giving up 50+ YPD to anyone and if UT and LSU don’t do better they both will have a lot to worry about.

Quote:Both Oregon and Texas are going to be easily top 20 wins, if not better at the end of the season.

Probably but it’s too early to know for sure. People said that about UT-Notre Dame when “Texas is back!” Kicked off the 2016 season only to see both teams miss bowls.