Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Post Reply 
What if ACC expansion had gone according to plan?
Author Message
RutgersGuy Offline
All American
*

Posts: 3,127
Joined: Nov 2015
Reputation: 152
I Root For: Rutgers
Location:
Post: #101
RE: What if ACC expansion had gone according to plan?
(05-22-2019 06:30 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(05-22-2019 05:36 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(05-22-2019 04:53 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Three reasons why VT doesn't join the Big Ten:

A
A
U

As a non-member they are a no go.

Let me reiterate that if Missouri has no where to go they remain in the Big 12. If VT is a tour de force in a weakened Big East or in a proto-AAC if they follow through on the original plan to split in 2010 they definitely get into the SEC over Missouri as the stronger overall brand in a state that's roughly the same size.

The question though is if the ACC is performing extremely weak without the Hokies does the ACC rather than the Big East fall prey to the SEC? If Florida St is unhappy enough in 2012 to actually leave the ACC then they get picked over VT and all bets are off and crap starts flying everywhere. The Big Ten and SEC declare open season on both the ACC and Big East and in the end only one of those 2 is left standing after adding the remnants of the other. We usher in an era of 16+ member conferences.

The ACC was extremely weak after those adds.

After the raid the ACC went 2-7 in BCS bowls with one of those wins over NIU while the Big East went 5-4 with two wins over the SEC and OU as well as going 2-1 against the ACC. Thats why the ACC came back a second time, the Big East while getting no love from the writers and pundits was a much better FB conference those years.

That was a weird stretch. The Big East was smaller and full of up starts but was out performing the far richer, larger, more stable ACC.

The other thing that was weird was that WVU and the newcomers were the ones doing the heavy lifting. Pitt, Rutgers, and Cuse were all pretty lousy.

It almost makes you wonder if the ACC expansion vote had failed and they held at 9 if the Big East could have expanded, maybe even at the ACC's expense, and survived.

Actually that was the time Rutgers was good.
05-23-2019 06:34 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
esayem Offline
Hark The Sound!
*

Posts: 16,815
Joined: Feb 2007
Reputation: 1280
I Root For: Olde Ironclad
Location: Tobacco Road
Post: #102
RE: What if ACC expansion had gone according to plan?
(05-22-2019 05:46 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(05-22-2019 05:34 PM)ColKurtz Wrote:  
(05-22-2019 05:18 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(05-21-2019 09:09 PM)ColKurtz Wrote:  
(05-21-2019 06:22 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  No, they don't. No matter how you try and spin it VT does not deliver the DC market. You don't get the carriage fees for DC when you are closer to Tennessee than DC. Thats not how it works at all.
.

You're clearly confused. The "DC market" is the greater DC metro area, 6.2M (not including northern MD/Baltimore). The largest portion of the DC metro area is northern VA, roughly 3.3M. So if carriage fees are your definition of carrying a market, VT (and/or UVA) carry more than half of the nation's 6th largest market. The District itself is only 630k, roughly half of the Raleigh/Durham market. No one really cares about DC itself.

And Blacksburg is nowhere near that market. Thy are closer to Tennessee and Kentucky than they are to Maryland and DC by a substantial distance. A rural school on the other side of the state isn't going to demand higher carriage fees from the NoVA households.

You're putting on a clinic as to how to lose an argument. You continue to conflate proximity to the center of a market with how many schools can carry said market. VT and UVA are both in VA, so would by definition carry over half the DC Metro market with in-state carriage fees.

No, they wouldn't. You guys conflate in state as same as in market. In my previous post I ask does Texas Tech carry Dallas? Cal carry LA? No, they don't.

The funniest part of all of this is that half the ACC fans say Rutgers doesn't bring any carriage fees from Philly because they aren't in the actual market and half the ACC fans telling me VT carries DC because it's the same state.

The ACC circle (jerk) logic on these boards is really something.

Not true. Most ACC fans could care less about Rutgers and how they are represented in various markets.

Hint: I’m one.
05-23-2019 08:08 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
esayem Offline
Hark The Sound!
*

Posts: 16,815
Joined: Feb 2007
Reputation: 1280
I Root For: Olde Ironclad
Location: Tobacco Road
Post: #103
RE: What if ACC expansion had gone according to plan?
(05-22-2019 07:19 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(05-22-2019 06:49 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  
(05-22-2019 03:12 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(05-22-2019 10:51 AM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  The 1990 ACC expansion should've included Miami. That would've given the ACC a pretty solid 10 school conference along the southeast coast from Maryland to Florida and most likely would've preempted further expansion in 2003.

I imagine there still would have eventually been a push to get to 12 for the CCG.
Actually the ACC would've had 11 schools (with only 1 school to get to 12) if South Carolina didn't reject the terms for re-admission in the late 1970s.

The terms the ACC offered were incredibly punitive.

The part that annoys me about South Carolina's departure in the first place is right after they left the ACC adopted all the terms that South Carolina wanted. It makes me wish that Clemson and Maryland, then kindred spirits in the struggle against the Tobacco Road cartel, would have left too. Maryland might have become a key Component of a realized JoePa Conference while the SC pair could either start a new league, band of independents, or petition to join the SEC.

No, no, no. South Carolina’s football coach and AD at the time wanted no part of the ACC, while b-ball coaching legend Frank McGuire desperately wanted back in the ACC immediately. Of course, the AD won out.

The doors closed on South Carolina (and Virginia Tech who had multiple bids rejected over the years) when Georgia Tech was admitted; there was no going to 9.
05-23-2019 08:15 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Hokie Mark Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 23,864
Joined: Sep 2011
Reputation: 1414
I Root For: VT, ACC teams
Location: Greensboro, NC
Post: #104
RE: What if ACC expansion had gone according to plan?
(05-23-2019 08:15 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(05-22-2019 07:19 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(05-22-2019 06:49 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  
(05-22-2019 03:12 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(05-22-2019 10:51 AM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  The 1990 ACC expansion should've included Miami. That would've given the ACC a pretty solid 10 school conference along the southeast coast from Maryland to Florida and most likely would've preempted further expansion in 2003.

I imagine there still would have eventually been a push to get to 12 for the CCG.
Actually the ACC would've had 11 schools (with only 1 school to get to 12) if South Carolina didn't reject the terms for re-admission in the late 1970s.

The terms the ACC offered were incredibly punitive.

The part that annoys me about South Carolina's departure in the first place is right after they left the ACC adopted all the terms that South Carolina wanted. It makes me wish that Clemson and Maryland, then kindred spirits in the struggle against the Tobacco Road cartel, would have left too. Maryland might have become a key Component of a realized JoePa Conference while the SC pair could either start a new league, band of independents, or petition to join the SEC.

No, no, no. South Carolina’s football coach and AD at the time wanted no part of the ACC, while b-ball coaching legend Frank McGuire desperately wanted back in the ACC immediately. Of course, the AD won out.

The doors closed on South Carolina (and Virginia Tech who had multiple bids rejected over the years) when Georgia Tech was admitted; there was no going to 9.

I believe you that the ACC members didn't want to expand beyond 8 at the time, but BOY, was that a mistake! Imagine if the ACC had been proactive and added GT, SC and Penn State to get to 10... then later grabbed up FSU and Miami to get to 12 about the same time that the SEC moved to 12... now THAT's an East Coast football conference - nearly every good P5 from Pennsylvania to Florida!

Hopefully VT would've been added later, perhaps with Pitt or Syracuse or BC to get to 14 - VT and Pitt would've been smart though - save SU and BC for 15 and 16 if desired.
05-23-2019 10:22 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Hokie Mark Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 23,864
Joined: Sep 2011
Reputation: 1414
I Root For: VT, ACC teams
Location: Greensboro, NC
Post: #105
RE: What if ACC expansion had gone according to plan?
(05-23-2019 08:15 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(05-22-2019 07:19 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(05-22-2019 06:49 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  
(05-22-2019 03:12 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(05-22-2019 10:51 AM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  The 1990 ACC expansion should've included Miami. That would've given the ACC a pretty solid 10 school conference along the southeast coast from Maryland to Florida and most likely would've preempted further expansion in 2003.

I imagine there still would have eventually been a push to get to 12 for the CCG.
Actually the ACC would've had 11 schools (with only 1 school to get to 12) if South Carolina didn't reject the terms for re-admission in the late 1970s.

The terms the ACC offered were incredibly punitive.

The part that annoys me about South Carolina's departure in the first place is right after they left the ACC adopted all the terms that South Carolina wanted. It makes me wish that Clemson and Maryland, then kindred spirits in the struggle against the Tobacco Road cartel, would have left too. Maryland might have become a key Component of a realized JoePa Conference while the SC pair could either start a new league, band of independents, or petition to join the SEC.

No, no, no. South Carolina’s football coach and AD at the time wanted no part of the ACC, while b-ball coaching legend Frank McGuire desperately wanted back in the ACC immediately. Of course, the AD won out.

The doors closed on South Carolina (and Virginia Tech who had multiple bids rejected over the years) when Georgia Tech was admitted; there was no going to 9.

I believe you that the ACC members didn't want to expand beyond 8 at the time, but BOY, was that a mistake! Imagine if the ACC had been proactive and added GT, SC and Penn State to get to 10... or also grabbed up FSU and Miami to get to 12 (about the same time that the SEC moved to 12)... now THAT's an East Coast football conference - nearly every good P5 from Pennsylvania to Florida!

Hopefully VT would've been added later, perhaps with Pitt or Syracuse or BC to get to 14 - VT and Pitt would've been smart though - save SU and BC for 15 and 16 if desired.
(This post was last modified: 05-23-2019 10:23 AM by Hokie Mark.)
05-23-2019 10:22 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
MSTiger02 Offline
Water Engineer
*

Posts: 24
Joined: Apr 2018
Reputation: 7
I Root For: Clemson
Location:
Post: #106
RE: What if ACC expansion had gone according to plan?
(05-22-2019 05:20 PM)Soobahk40050 Wrote:  
(05-21-2019 06:55 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  A Clemson fan who goes by MSTiger02 [IIRC] on this site wrote a guest article for ACCFootballRx in which he contends that the ACC's original plan was to add Miami, BC and Syracuse (not VT). He goes on to assert that if that had happened, VT would most likely be in the SEC today (instead of Missouri).

What if everything had gone according to plan?

Sometimes it works out best when things DON'T go according to plan (e.g. Louisville replacing Maryland also).

Thoughts?



Link doesn't seem to link to article anymore, but I'd love to see the article!

Here you go.

https://accfootballrx.blogspot.com/2019/...rding.html
05-23-2019 01:26 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Fighting Muskie Offline
Senior Chief Realignmentologist
*

Posts: 11,991
Joined: Sep 2016
Reputation: 834
I Root For: Ohio St, UC,MAC
Location: Biden Cesspool
Post: #107
RE: What if ACC expansion had gone according to plan?
(05-23-2019 06:34 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(05-22-2019 06:30 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(05-22-2019 05:36 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(05-22-2019 04:53 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Three reasons why VT doesn't join the Big Ten:

A
A
U

As a non-member they are a no go.

Let me reiterate that if Missouri has no where to go they remain in the Big 12. If VT is a tour de force in a weakened Big East or in a proto-AAC if they follow through on the original plan to split in 2010 they definitely get into the SEC over Missouri as the stronger overall brand in a state that's roughly the same size.

The question though is if the ACC is performing extremely weak without the Hokies does the ACC rather than the Big East fall prey to the SEC? If Florida St is unhappy enough in 2012 to actually leave the ACC then they get picked over VT and all bets are off and crap starts flying everywhere. The Big Ten and SEC declare open season on both the ACC and Big East and in the end only one of those 2 is left standing after adding the remnants of the other. We usher in an era of 16+ member conferences.

The ACC was extremely weak after those adds.

After the raid the ACC went 2-7 in BCS bowls with one of those wins over NIU while the Big East went 5-4 with two wins over the SEC and OU as well as going 2-1 against the ACC. Thats why the ACC came back a second time, the Big East while getting no love from the writers and pundits was a much better FB conference those years.

That was a weird stretch. The Big East was smaller and full of up starts but was out performing the far richer, larger, more stable ACC.

The other thing that was weird was that WVU and the newcomers were the ones doing the heavy lifting. Pitt, Rutgers, and Cuse were all pretty lousy.

It almost makes you wonder if the ACC expansion vote had failed and they held at 9 if the Big East could have expanded, maybe even at the ACC's expense, and survived.

Actually that was the time Rutgers was good.

My bad. I just remembered the one great season where Louisville, Rutgers, and I want to say WVU all entered November undefeated and then proceeding to each delver a loss to one of the others. When I look at the season by season result the Scarlet Knights were holding their own, just not earning any titles.
05-24-2019 05:50 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Statefan Offline
Banned

Posts: 3,511
Joined: May 2018
I Root For: .
Location:
Post: #108
RE: What if ACC expansion had gone according to plan?
(05-23-2019 08:15 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(05-22-2019 07:19 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(05-22-2019 06:49 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  
(05-22-2019 03:12 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(05-22-2019 10:51 AM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  The 1990 ACC expansion should've included Miami. That would've given the ACC a pretty solid 10 school conference along the southeast coast from Maryland to Florida and most likely would've preempted further expansion in 2003.

I imagine there still would have eventually been a push to get to 12 for the CCG.
Actually the ACC would've had 11 schools (with only 1 school to get to 12) if South Carolina didn't reject the terms for re-admission in the late 1970s.

The terms the ACC offered were incredibly punitive.

The part that annoys me about South Carolina's departure in the first place is right after they left the ACC adopted all the terms that South Carolina wanted. It makes me wish that Clemson and Maryland, then kindred spirits in the struggle against the Tobacco Road cartel, would have left too. Maryland might have become a key Component of a realized JoePa Conference while the SC pair could either start a new league, band of independents, or petition to join the SEC.

No, no, no. South Carolina’s football coach and AD at the time wanted no part of the ACC, while b-ball coaching legend Frank McGuire desperately wanted back in the ACC immediately. Of course, the AD won out.

The doors closed on South Carolina (and Virginia Tech who had multiple bids rejected over the years) when Georgia Tech was admitted; there was no going to 9.

Frank McGuire is who pushed SC out of the ACC and the reason they were kept out. Yes football and the 800 rule was a huge issue, but Frank brought the Mob to NC and Bill Friday thought McGuire facilitated the Mob. If you don't know how the UNC System works. The UNC System President controlled the votes of NC State and UNC-Ch after the point shaving scandal. Frank was his own AD at SC and Friday was not going to tolerate that so McGuire would have to be neutered. McGuire represented a continuing legal, political, and public relations issue for Carolina. It's one of the reasons they attacked Jim Valvano so feverishly when he was name AD by Chancellor Poulton over Friday's caution. Carolina had already parted ways with Bill Dooley over the AD position. Most attributed that to Dean Smith not wanting to answer to the football coach, but it was more than just that - Carolina knew they needed a "cut out man" because without the cut out man, any problem in the athletic department would immediately become a crisis if the head football or basketball coach was the AD.

Here is a good article from the Greensboro N&R:

FIGHTS, SCANDALS ERUPT IN 'DARK AGE'
BY LARRY KEECH Staff Writer Feb 22, 2003
Facebook
Twitter
Email
Facebook
Twitter
Email
Print
Save
The ACC's early gains on its way toward becoming the nation's pre-eminent basketball conference were not achieved without more than a little pain.

By the early 1960s, the ACC's ``Big Four' schools in North Carolina had seen a series of on-court free-for-alls, a couple of NCAA probations and a prominent role in a nationwide point-shaving scandal.Two years before the league was formed in 1953, North Carolina had hired Frank McGuire away from St. John's for the primary purpose of challenging the domination that N.C. State coach Everett Case had maintained in the Southern Conference since the end of World War II. Wake Forest promoted Bones McKinney to compete with the other two. And by the end of the '50s, Duke lured Case assistant Vic Bubas into the fray.

The ACC wasn't very old when the highly emotional pitch of the Tobacco Road rivalries began to boil over into frequent fights that started with players and often sucked crowds into them.

``The rivalries couldn't have been any more bitter,' said Jackie Murdock, a Raleigh native who starred and later coached at Wake Forest. ``It seemed like everybody lived no more than a half-hour's drive from all four campuses. That's probably why the games and bragging rights meant a lot to people, and the players got caught up in it.

``We competed hard. It was a pressure-packed atmosphere, and sometimes it crossed the line.'\ \ Come out fighting\ There was a cultural explanation for at least part of the friction, according to Billy Packer, the longtime college basketball TV analyst who played at Wake Forest in the early '60s and also served as an assistant coach at his alma mater. ``There's no question that there was friction and animosity between the coaches and players from up north and the Southern players and older fans,' Packer said. ``Jackie Murdock epitomized that attitude as much as anybody. He was a fierce competitor, and he felt that the influx of Northern players at the time was invading his territory.'

UNC's McGuire became a lightning rod for much of the friction that surrounded ACC basketball from the late 1950s until his abrupt departure in the summer of '61 to coach the NBA's Philadelphia Warriors. The turbulence surrounding McGuire seemed to increase after he guided the Tar Heels to a 32-0 record and the NCAA championship in '57.

``McGuire conveyed the impression that he put himself above everybody else,' said Marvin ``Skeeter' Francis, Wake Forest's sports information director in those years. 'He was a big-city guy with the tailored suit, cuff links and that square handkerchief in the breast pocket. I touched his sleeve once, and he said, 'Don't touch the suit.' '

A hint of the problems to come surfaced as early as 1954. In the State-Carolina game at UNC's Woollen Gym that year, officials Lou Bello and Dallas Shirley managed to maintain a semblance of control by whistling 74 personal fouls on the players and three technicals on McGuire. By game's end, spectators were throwing paper, fruit and combs onto the court.

In the first ACC Tournament, at Reynolds Coliseum, State attempted to freeze the ball at the end of a close quarterfinal game against UNC. Fans again bombarded the court with trash, and Carolina's Gerry McCabe tackled State's Dave Gotkin with eight seconds to play. Gotkin threw the ball at McCabe's face, drawing a technical that nearly cost the Wolfpack its 52-51 win.

Most observers insist, however, that the Case-McGuire ``feud' was overblown by the media and the public. Bucky Waters, who played under Case, is one of them.

``I think they got along fine,' Waters said of the two coaches. ``But it was a little bit like a pro wrestling rivalry.

``You have to remember that they still felt a need to promote their programs and college basketball in those years. When they disagreed publicly, didn't shake hands with each other and appeared not to get along, it was good for business. But it probably charged the atmosphere beyond a healthy point.'

Several other incidents took place around the ACC before one was serious enough to prompt punitive action from Commissioner Jim Weaver.

In a game in Chapel Hill in February 1956, UNC's Joe Quigg and Wake Forest's Jim Gilley tripped over each other's feet at midcourt. Fans immediately swarmed the floor and fights broke out. Among the players who squared off and fought were Bob Cunningham of Carolina and Bill Tucker of Wake Forest.

Even though McGuire apologized to Wake's players and coaches in the dressing room, Weaver, who had been Wake Forest's athletics director before he was named to the ACC post, reviewed film of the incident and suspended Cunningham and Tucker for the remainder of the regular season and the ACC tournament. He also reprimanded both schools for ``unsportsmanlike conduct' and fined them $500 each.

Following the suspensions, an uneasy truce lasted until the tail end of the 1957-58 season. But McGuire was incensed at the boos his team received on hostile Big Four courts. Then, after Duke defeated UNC in Durham, fans carried Bubas off the floor in celebration, and McGuire held his team on the bench until the floor was cleared of fans. He even requested a police escort.

McGuire's actions brought an angry reaction from Duke football coach Bill Murray, who had been in charge of arena operations.

``It was an uncalled-for demonstration,' Murray said. ``No athletic team will have trouble walking off this court. When the time comes that we have to have police protection to escort a team off our court, we should quit playing. It was the most revolting act by a college coach that I've ever witnessed.'

McGuire labeled Murray's criticism of him ``an unwarranted attack.'

In the '58-59 Dixie Classic, Wake Forest's Dave Budd and Cincinnati star Oscar Robertson engaged in a brief shoving match.

Later that season, Budd was a central figure in the ACC's worst fight to date. With 30 seconds left in Carolina's 75-66 win at Winston-Salem's Memorial Coliseum, UNC's Lee Shaffer and Wake's Charlie Forte became involved in an elbow-swinging incident. Budd joined the fray, and the three tumbled to the floor.

Fights involving players and fans broke out all over the court. McKinney was knocked down, McGuire was hit on the head, and a blow from a fan left the Tar Heels' Doug Moe with a black eye.

The Wake Forest pep band played ``The Star Spangled Banner' and ``Dixie' in an effort to quell the fighting.

Even Wake's mild-mannered Winston Wiggins became involved. The player's wife, who was seated behind the bench, walked to the edge of the court and yelled, ``Winston, you get out of there right this minute.'

This time, when Weaver reviewed film of the fight, he placed both squads on strict probation and warned that future incidents would endanger players' eligibility. He ruled that the two teams could not play a game in Winston-Salem the following season and recommended that UNC move its home game to a neutral site.

Weaver also censured McGuire and McKinney and reprimanded a half-dozen players. Despite protests from both schools, Weaver held firm.

``The late '50s and early '60s were a tedious time for Mr. Weaver,' said Nancy Thompson, the secretary and office manager throughout the terms of the first three ACC commissioners, and who was the only other occupant of a conference office that now numbers several dozen employees.

``Those were different times,' Thompson said. ``Mr. Weaver had to be his own investigator, and sometimes it seemed like problems were flying at him from all directions. But he was as patient and deliberative as anyone I've ever known. He'd study issues and watch film for days.'\ \ The last round

There was to be one last memorable fight before McGuire's departure for the NBA, this one involving Carolina and Duke players during their 1961 game at Duke's Indoor Stadium. The focal point in the conflict was Art Heyman, Duke's 6-foot-5 sophomore star from Long Island who had been the object of a recruiting showdown between McGuire and Bubas.

The hostilities began during the freshman game, which served as a preliminary to the varsity game in those years. Carolina finished its 79-52 loss to Duke with only three players on the floor. One of their teammates had been ejected for tackling a Duke player on a drive to the basket, and another was tossed for throwing a punch at a Duke player. Five more had fouled out.

Early in the varsity game, Moe and Heyman almost came to blows. Next, McGuire walked to the Duke bench to confront an assistant trainer for talking to one of his players. Then, Heyman slapped a UNC male cheerleader on the back of the head after the cheerleader touched him as he left the court at halftime.

It was with nine seconds left in the game that fisticuffs between Heyman and 5-11 Carolina guard Larry Brown triggered a free-for-all involving both benches and numerous fans.

While official Jim Mills attempted to break up the fight, his partner, Charlie Eckman, watched from behind a basket support. It took 10 Durham policemen several minutes to restore order.

The game ended with an exchange of words between McGuire and Bubas.

``When I changed my mind and enrolled at Duke instead of Carolina, it aroused some animosity on the part of the guys at UNC who had known me back in New York,' Heyman said. ``In their eyes, I was Benedict Arnold.

``Larry Brown and I lived five miles down the road from each other and had played together since grade school.

``My stepfather and mother coerced me into signing with McGuire and Carolina, but it wasn't binding until you actually registered back then. So, I made up my mind to enroll at Duke. I guess I was the first New Yorker who turned him (McGuire) down.

``There was a lot of tension in the air that night. Doug Moe spat on me, and I spat back. That cheerleader whacked me, and I cold-cocked him. After that, I was told by a representative of Duke never to go to Chapel Hill again. I never did.'

When Weaver reviewed film of the fight, he suspended Heyman, Brown and UNC's Donnie Walsh for all remaining ACC games that season.\ \ On probation\ N.C. State and Carolina were early entries on the all-time list of schools placed on NCAA probation.

Case twice ran afoul of major-college basketball's governing body during the '50s. Illegal tryouts for prospects was the cause of a one-year ban in '53.

The first probation seemed lenient in comparison with the one handed out three years later, in the aftermath of a messy recruiting battle between Case and Kentucky coach Adolph Rupp for a 6-7 Louisiana forward named Jackie Moreland.

``Everett was anxious to replace Ronnie Shavlik, and he went after Moreland,' Waters said. ``He was a nice kid and a very talented player. But he had committed to Kentucky, and his girlfriend wanted him to go to Kentucky.'

Testimony about Case's tactics in luring Moreland away from Kentucky resulted in some of the most severe sentences ever handed down by the NCAA. N.C. State's program was barred from NCAA tournament participation for four years for what was described as ``illegal recruiting inducements.'




SKIP AD

Moreland became a journeyman player in the NBA and the ABA.

The NCAA handed McGuire's UNC basketball program a one-year probation Jan. 10, 1961, for violating recruiting rules.

The NCAA Council charged that in at least 15 instances, UNC entertained prospective players, their parents and sometimes their high school coaches away from the Chapel Hill campus. The council reported that the university paid for lodging and food for players' parents who attended the annual Dixie Classic in Raleigh. It was ruled that McGuire and Harry Gotkin, his New York City ``talent scout,' picked up entertainment bills and provided no detailed account of the expenditures.

The council also ruled UNC recruit Billy Galantai of Brooklyn ineligible for one additional year. The 6-6 forward already had been declared ineligible to play freshman basketball because he had filed a false eligibility statement. Galantai eventually played under coach Dean Smith in 1963 and '64, but his career was an undistinguished one.

In late January, UNC notified the ACC that it would not participate in the '61 ACC Tournament. In a telegram to Weaver, the league commissioner, the school's faculty committee wrote that ``such withdrawal would preclude the possibility of an ineligible team eliminating one or more eligible teams.'\ \ 'A price to pay'\ On the heels of probation, N.C. State and Carolina came under siege for their players' participation in college basketball's second widespread points-shaving scandal in the span of a decade.

Warrants were issued May 13, 1961, in Wake County Superior Court for the arrest of N.C. State players Anton Muehlbauer, Terry Litchfield and Stan Niewierowski for alleged points-shaving during the 1960-61 season.

N.C. State's Dan Gallagher was named by a Wake County Grand Jury on Sept. 12 for his alleged role in points-shaving during the 1959-60 season.

New York City District Attorney Frank Hogan had broken the case. His office arrested Aaron ``The Bagman' Wagman, Joseph Hacken, Jack Molinas and Joe Greene.

Wagman was a 29-year-old souvenir stand operator outside Yankee Stadium who also lived around the corner in the Bronx from Molinas, 30, an attorney and former player at Columbia University. Wagman and Hacken were believed to be members of a national crime syndicate. Greene, the principal contact for the N.C. State players, later said he had attempted suicide by slashing his wrists in a jail cell.

All were eventually convicted in New York and served time in prison. In 1975, Molinas was shot to death outside his home in Hollywood Hills, Calif.

In Wake County, Wagman, Greene and six other non-players were charged with bribery and conspiracy. All but two entered guilty pleas. Gallagher, Litchfield, Muehlbauer, Niewierowski and Lou Brown of North Carolina were granted immunity in New York for their testimony in North Carolina.

Gallagher, the youngest in a family of eight children from Binghamton, N.Y., fit the profile of most points-shavers because of the financial hardships he faced as a married student at State. He was the first Wolfpack player the gamblers contacted.

Still, Waters, whose playing career overlapped that of Gallagher, was stunned by the news of his involvement.


``Gallagher was a guy whom everybody respected, the last guy you'd think would be involved in something like that,' Waters said. ``He and (future Gov.) Jim Hunt were in school at the same time. If you were told that one of them would be governor someday, you'd say it would be Gallagher.'

Gallagher became a career Army officer who served two tours of duty in Vietnam and earned a master's degree in public administration from the University of Georgia before retiring from the Army in '81 and settling on the West Coast.

``I had choices to make, and I made the wrong ones,' Gallagher said. ``But I've made a lot of right choices since that time.

``Even though you don't receive a day in jail, the repercussions remain vivid in your mind. You are scorned by neighbors, friends. To be scorned by your friends at your high school and in your hometown is worse than a sentence in jail. I can assure you that.

``Your inability to return to campus in any kind of admirable way and be able to identify yourself or join the alumni association ... those things hurt. You lose your identity for a long period of your life.

``I hope that people can forgive. I hope that people are big enough to understand that people can overcome their mistakes.

``Quite a price to pay for several hundred quick bucks.'

Litchfield's story was the most heart-rending of all. Diagnosed as blind when he was 6 years old, he overcome severe nearsightedness to become a college player. After transferring from Richmond to N.C. State, he accepted $1,050 to shave points in two games. He later insisted, ``I never shaved any points in any game.'

Litchfield died of a heart attack in 1974, and his wife committed suicide a week later. The couple left behind a physically challenged daughter.

Muehlbauer, who was known as an outstanding defensive player, accepted $2,300 to alter the outcome of three games.

Niewierowski said he received $3,250 for shaving points in two games, against Maryland in 1960 and Duke in '61. He also said he turned down two other offers totaling $2,250 to fix games against Carolina.

Niewierowski was a skilled all-around athlete and the most happy-go-lucky player on his team. Always quick to organize a party, he usually had a pretty girl by his side. His teammates also were aware of his penchant for gambling on college football or basketball games.

``Throw a feather in the air, and (Niewierowski) would bet whether it would hit the floor or not,' said teammate Bob DiStefano.

In New York, UNC's Lou Brown admitted receiving $4,500 to arrange fixes of seven games not involving UNC and making more money by betting on fixed games. Brown also testified that teammate Doug Moe accepted $75 from Wagman. Moe was not charged with fixing a game, but was suspended from school, along with Brown, by UNC Chancellor William B. Aycock. Moe's college career was rescued by Elon College coach Bill Miller.

Brown's testimony also named teammate Ray Stanley, even though he had refused to accept a $1,000 payoff and did not participate in points-shaving.

Brown entered a guilty plea to bribery charges in Durham County and received an 18- to 24-month suspended sentence pending five years good behavior.

Before testifying in either state, Brown sold his story to Look magazine.\ \ End of an era\ As recommended by Gov. Terry Sanford and Consolidated UNC President William Friday, the Board of Trustees blamed the points-shaving scandal on big-time athletics. The board canceled the annual Dixie Classic, limited schedules at Carolina and N.C. State to 14 ACC games and two nonconference games and allotted both schools only two scholarship recruits per year from outside the ACC region. The restrictions lasted two years.

``The District Solicitor told me that one player had testified in deposition that a gambler stuck the barrel of a gun in his stomach and said, 'Gimme back the money,' ' Friday said. ``It was a very unfortunate and unhappy situation that could have hurt the reputation of the institution, and big-time sports had generated it.

``(Chancellors) Bill Aycock of UNC, John Caldwell of N.C. State and I locked ourselves up for a day-and-a-half,' Friday recalled. ``We determined that the scandal reflected that basketball in our area had outgrown itself, and we took what we felt were necessary steps to rein it in.'

Those who were close to Case maintain the points-shaving scandal removed some of his zest for the game. Lee Terrill, Case's trusted assistant, left the profession and never looked back in the aftermath of the scandal.

``Every year Everett reminded his players of the dangers of gambling,`` Waters said. ``I think he sensed that something was wrong before it broke open. He had no family, so his life was wrapped up in his program. He wasn't the same after he learned that those kids had sold him out, and he went downhill pretty fast after that.'

Case coached his last game early in the 1964-65 season and died of bone cancer the following spring.

Barely four years after orchestrating Carolina's national championship season, McGuire was gone, having resigned to accept an offer to coach Wilt Chamberlain and the NBA's Philadelphia Warriors.

Besides the fights, NCAA probation and the points-shaving scandals, McGuire was at odds with the UNC administration for other reasons. His grievances included a salary that he didn't think was commensurate with his accomplishments and extended to perks the university had not made available to him and UNC's tardiness in constructing a better playing facility than Woollen Gym.

His contractual salary of $11,600 had been supplemented only by the annual gift of a new car from boosters. He had been denied a weekly news conference such as the one held for football coach Jim Tatum. The school also declined to cover the expenses of some of McGuire's friends for trips to games.

The day McGuire resigned, Aycock promoted assistant Dean Smith to the head coach's job with a raise from $8,000 to $9,500 annually.

``I hope to carry on Coach McGuire's program, although I realize I have some big shoes to fill,' Smith said.

Many fans apparently agreed. Only 3,016 turned out to watch the Tar Heels play Indiana at the Greensboro Coliseum in one of Smith's first games in a schedule that had been abbreviated by the sanctions that resulted from the point-shaving scandal.

But in the long run, the post-scandal sanctions, McGuire's departure and Case's decline caused only a relatively brief downturn in the basketball fortunes at UNC and State. They also closed one of the most divisive periods in ACC basketball history.\ \ Contact Larry Keech at 373-7080 or lkeech@news-record.com



Always be careful of ACC stories that have been sanitized and altered - particularly by UNC-Ch. The flip side of that is the anger that sanitation generates over at NC State. Real truth about the old ACC ALWAYS involves someone from Wake Forest and sources that go to folks like Bill Brill (A UVa reporter that hell hated VT). Most you can't begin to imagine just how image conscious Duke and UNC-Ch are and what they will do, pay, or re-write to protect their image.


If you are on the outside looking in at this, keep in mind that the ACC as a conference did not begin acting like a real business until the mid 2000's. That's why you don't have business decisions being made but cotillion club and booster club decisions being made by the Presidents and the people who whisper to them. The states of NC, Va, and SC were fairly rural states until the mid 1990's and nearly every member of the Board of Trustees at UVa, UNC, NC State, WF, and Clemson had a personal and or business relationship with several other trustees of another ACC school and VT in particular.

Most of the ACC ptb did not care if Syracuse or BC lived or died in 2003. They did care about Miami, because Florida State cared about Miami.

(For those curious about NC State and the Moorland probation, we promised a scholarship to Moorland's wife, who was a brilliant student in her own right - however Adolph Rupp's buddy at Kentucky was the chair of the NCAA sanctions committee at the time.)
(This post was last modified: 05-24-2019 11:29 AM by Statefan.)
05-24-2019 11:14 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
esayem Offline
Hark The Sound!
*

Posts: 16,815
Joined: Feb 2007
Reputation: 1280
I Root For: Olde Ironclad
Location: Tobacco Road
Post: #109
RE: What if ACC expansion had gone according to plan?
There was a definite antithesis regarding Frank McGuire and Dean Smith, which is one of the reasons they were such a powerful combo.

You seem to be stuck on the NYC pipeline to Tobacco Road etc., but where can you point out that McGuire didn't want SC back in the ACC? I literally just read about it. Most everybody agrees it was a football decision to leave that McGuire was originally okay with, but soon came to realize the allure of the ACC and its legendary tourney were too much to disregard.
05-24-2019 11:28 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Statefan Offline
Banned

Posts: 3,511
Joined: May 2018
I Root For: .
Location:
Post: #110
RE: What if ACC expansion had gone according to plan?
(05-24-2019 11:28 AM)esayem Wrote:  There was a definite antithesis regarding Frank McGuire and Dean Smith, which is one of the reasons they were such a powerful combo.

You seem to be stuck on the NYC pipeline to Tobacco Road etc., but where can you point out that McGuire didn't want SC back in the ACC? I literally just read about it. Most everybody agrees it was a football decision to leave that McGuire was originally okay with, but soon came to realize the allure of the ACC and its legendary tourney were too much to disregard.

Sure McGuire wanted SC to come back to the ACC, but that was not going to happen as long as Frank was in Columbia. You needed 6 votes to allow SC to come back. Bill Friday controlled Carolina's and State's. Friday was as powerful as the Governor for much of his time as System President. The point shaving scandal rocked the UNC System and the State much more than people today comprehend. Many of the ptb at State and UNC wanted SC to come back and negotiations and talks occurred many times and deals would seem close, but Friday controlled the actual NC State and UNC-Ch chancellor's votes on the subject so Friday was the one that had to be satisfied. By the time that SC got rid of McGuire, GT had their old spot.
(This post was last modified: 05-24-2019 11:42 AM by Statefan.)
05-24-2019 11:35 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Kaplony Offline
Palmetto State Deplorable

Posts: 25,393
Joined: Apr 2013
I Root For: Newberry
Location: SC
Post: #111
RE: What if ACC expansion had gone according to plan?
McGuire might have wanted to rejoin the ACC but it was never going to happen. McGuire refused to hire SC Speaker of the House Sol Blatt's son Sol Jr as an assistant coach and from that point on Blatt was a mortal enemy of McGuire so he sided with Jim Carlen, who absolutely did not want to return to the ACC.
05-24-2019 12:44 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Nerdlinger Offline
Realignment Enthusiast
*

Posts: 4,933
Joined: May 2017
Reputation: 428
I Root For: Realignment!
Location: Schmlocation
Post: #112
RE: What if ACC expansion had gone according to plan?
(05-22-2019 08:11 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(05-21-2019 06:55 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  A Clemson fan who goes by MSTiger02 [IIRC] on this site wrote a guest article for ACCFootballRx in which he contends that the ACC's original plan was to add Miami, BC and Syracuse (not VT). He goes on to assert that if that had happened, VT would most likely be in the SEC today (instead of Missouri).

What if everything had gone according to plan?

Sometimes it works out best when things DON'T go according to plan (e.g. Louisville replacing Maryland also).

Thoughts?

One other interesting bit is the claim that Virginia Tech actually took Syracuse's spot in the Coastal. But why would the divisions have been aligned so that the most sought-after target (Miami) couldn't annually play both of the other teams that would have been brought along to appease it?

Atlantic/Coastal
Boston College/Syracuse
Clemson/Georgia Tech
Florida State/Miami-FL
Maryland/Virginia
NC State/North Carolina
Wake Forest/Duke

Miami would only have been able to play Syracuse annually, not BC. I would think an alignment like this would have been more plausible:

Atlantic/Coastal
Boston College/Virginia
Clemson/Georgia Tech
Miami-FL/Florida State
NC State/North Carolina
Syracuse/Maryland
Wake Forest/Duke

(Had it gone down like this, then Pitt ends up taking Maryland's place come 2013ish.)

The simple replacement of Syracuse by VT would have thrown a wrench in this alignment, though, since that would have made the Atlantic way too strong relative to the Coastal. Here's an alternate solution from what they actually did (the Florida schools are swapped):

Atlantic/Coastal
Boston College/Virginia Tech
Clemson/Georgia Tech
Maryland/Virginia
Miami-FL/Florida State
NC State/North Carolina
Wake Forest/Duke

Even without Syracuse, Miami still gets to play BC annually. They don't get to play VT annually, but I don't know how strong a rivalry that really was. Another advantage of this alignment would have been a continued FSU/GT annual series. I'm really not sure why they ended up putting Miami in the Coastal and FSU in the Atlantic.

Of course, then you have the later, also baffling choice of putting Syracuse in the Atlantic and Pittsburgh in the Coastal in 2013. Sure, BC wanted to play Syracuse every year, but that didn't stop the Eagles from leaving Syracuse behind in the Big East. Was it for competitive balance? And did Miami have no weight in the decision?

Here's how it should have been done (also like what they did except the Florida schools are swapped):

Atlantic/Coastal
Boston College/Virginia Tech
Clemson/Georgia Tech
Maryland/Virginia
Miami-FL/Florida State
NC State/North Carolina
Syracuse/Pittsburgh
Wake Forest/Duke

Actually, here's how it should have been done, but this is a bit more drastic a change:

Atlantic/Coastal
Clemson/Maryland
Duke/Pittsburgh
Florida State/Miami-FL
Georgia Tech/Virginia Tech
NC State/Boston College
North Carolina/Virginia
Wake Forest/Syracuse

Any crossovers other than FSU/Miami and UNC/UVA could rotate here, TBH.

Just curious if anyone has thoughts on why the divisions were aligned as they were.
05-25-2019 06:49 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Statefan Offline
Banned

Posts: 3,511
Joined: May 2018
I Root For: .
Location:
Post: #113
RE: What if ACC expansion had gone according to plan?
Nerd,

Miami had no say in divisions. Divisions are based on the various school's list of what they want and what they don't want.

1. UNC has to play Duke, UVa, and NC State every year, and wants to play GT every year and wants to avoid Clemson and FSU
2. NC State has to play UNC, Clemson, and WF every year and wants to play MD and avoid FSU
3. UVa has to play UNC and VT every year, and wants to play WF, Duke, MD, and GT every year
4. WF has to play NC State every year, and wants to play UNC, Duke, UVa, VT, and Clemson.
5. Duke has to play UNC every year, and wants to play WF, UNC, VT, and NC State every year.
6. MD wants to play UVa, UNC, NC State, VT every year
7. Clemson has to play FSU and GT every year, and wants to play NC State, UVa, and UNC every year. They want to avoid Duke
8. GT has to play Duke and Clemson every year, and wants to play UNC every year and wants to avoid FSU every year
9. FSU has to play Miami every year, and wants to play GT and Clemson every year and wants to avoid WF and Duke every year

That's what you have to juggle and what makes 5 of nine happy is what goes. FSU and UNC are going to be made happy and that results in the blues all together. Once FSU and Miami are split, Clemson ends up with FSU. Once you make FSU and UNC happy, knowing FSU and Miami have to be split you get:

A - UNC/Duke/UVa/Miami/TBD/TBD
B - FSU/Clemson/TBD/TBD/TBD/TBD

Then you put in GT/NCSU/MD and they almost auto-sort.

When these decisions were made, Clemson had been mediocre by their standards for some time. From 92-2004 if you awarded points 4, 3, 2, 1 for place of finish 1-4 in the ACC, over that time span FSU has 50 points, UNC 14, UVa 12, GT 11, NC State and Clemson 8, and MD 7. At 12, you are seeing the ones you don't play on an annual basis every three years instead of the current 6.

What's fair on the field doesn't match what the AD's want regarding football ticketing policies. When MD left, the divisions should have been shuffled rather than substituting Louisville for MD because that was a straight loss for Atlantic Division recruiting. Pitt, VT, or UVa should have taken MD's old spot giving Atlantic teams a game in Pa or Va as consolation for losing DC.
(This post was last modified: 05-25-2019 09:09 PM by Statefan.)
05-25-2019 08:54 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
DawgNBama Offline
the Rush Limbaugh of CSNBBS
*

Posts: 8,420
Joined: Sep 2002
Reputation: 456
I Root For: conservativism/MAGA
Location: US
Post: #114
RE: What if ACC expansion had gone according to plan?
Back to the original point, I believe if ACC had gone as originally planned, the ACC would have been @ 12 members (BC, Clemson, Duke, FSU, GT, Maryland, Miami[FL], N.C. State, Syracuse, UNC, Virginia, Wake Forest). I am not sure if Maryland still leaves for the Big Ten or not in that scenario.
The SEC would look different though. The SEC still takes Texas A&M first, but then would have grabbed Virginia Tech instead of taking a gamble on Mizzou. Texas A&M-Virginia Tech is then branded as the “Big Military Classic of the South,” while Mizzou would have faced an uncertain future in the Big XII. Assuming Maryland still gets poached by the Big Ten, I believe Pittsburgh, not Louisville would have got the call.

So, both Missouri & Louisville benefited because of the ACC expansion not going according to plan.
05-26-2019 01:02 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
IWokeUpLikeThis Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 13,908
Joined: Jul 2014
Reputation: 1489
I Root For: NIU, Chicago St
Location:
Post: #115
RE: What if ACC expansion had gone according to plan?
BXII North: WVU, UL, ISU, MU, KU, KSU
BXII South: OU, OSU, UT, TT, TCU, BU

MD/VA/WV would now be split between ACC/SEC/B1G/BXII.
05-26-2019 01:15 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
ColKurtz Offline
2nd String
*

Posts: 439
Joined: Aug 2016
Reputation: 73
I Root For: Virginia Tech
Location: Raleigh
Post: #116
RE: What if ACC expansion had gone according to plan?
(05-25-2019 08:54 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Nerd,

Miami had no say in divisions. Divisions are based on the various school's list of what they want and what they don't want.

Miami did have a say in divisions, insomuch as they were going to be placed in the opposite division as FSU. The entire point of ACC expansion was to

1) Get Miami in the ACC. This was priority #1 above all else.
2) Get to 12 teams to get a CCG
3) Put FSU and Miami in opposite divisions so they will be playing for an ACC championship year in and year out.

Both teams had won national championships in the few years before expansion. There was really no reason to believe that those teams, who have yet to face each other in the ACCCG, wouldn't frequently be battling it out of the ACC and possibly then national title.

As to who the +2 were to get the CCG, I don't think Swofford cared all that much. Shalala wanted 2 northeast schools since a large portion of UM's students come from there. Then her plans all went to hell due to politics (both in UVA getting VT in, and NC State quashing BC initially due to a pipe dream that ND could be #12 instead).

Once the ACC was at 12, the divisions put FSU and Miami opposite, and then simply tried as much as possible to preserve the traditional rivalries.
05-26-2019 03:54 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
TerpsNPhoenix Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,262
Joined: Nov 2014
Reputation: 78
I Root For: Maryland & Elon
Location: North Cackalacky
Post: #117
RE: What if ACC expansion had gone according to plan?
(05-26-2019 01:02 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  Back to the original point, I believe if ACC had gone as originally planned, the ACC would have been @ 12 members (BC, Clemson, Duke, FSU, GT, Maryland, Miami[FL], N.C. State, Syracuse, UNC, Virginia, Wake Forest). I am not sure if Maryland still leaves for the Big Ten or not in that scenario.
The SEC would look different though. The SEC still takes Texas A&M first, but then would have grabbed Virginia Tech instead of taking a gamble on Mizzou. Texas A&M-Virginia Tech is then branded as the “Big Military Classic of the South,” while Mizzou would have faced an uncertain future in the Big XII. Assuming Maryland still gets poached by the Big Ten, I believe Pittsburgh, not Louisville would have got the call.

So, both Missouri & Louisville benefited because of the ACC expansion not going according to plan.

Maryland is still most likely to leave because CASH. Trying to keep up with UNC/UVA in sponsoring sports and having leadership "issues". Not a great combo. Maryland had to cut 7 sports.
05-26-2019 05:15 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
XLance Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 14,446
Joined: Mar 2008
Reputation: 798
I Root For: Carolina
Location: Greensboro, NC
Post: #118
RE: What if ACC expansion had gone according to plan?
(05-26-2019 05:15 AM)TerpsNPhoenix Wrote:  
(05-26-2019 01:02 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  Back to the original point, I believe if ACC had gone as originally planned, the ACC would have been @ 12 members (BC, Clemson, Duke, FSU, GT, Maryland, Miami[FL], N.C. State, Syracuse, UNC, Virginia, Wake Forest). I am not sure if Maryland still leaves for the Big Ten or not in that scenario.
The SEC would look different though. The SEC still takes Texas A&M first, but then would have grabbed Virginia Tech instead of taking a gamble on Mizzou. Texas A&M-Virginia Tech is then branded as the “Big Military Classic of the South,” while Mizzou would have faced an uncertain benefited because of the ACC expansion not going according to plan.

Maryland is still most likely to leave because CASH. Trying to keep up with UNC/UVA in sponsoring sports and having leadership "issues". Not a great combo. Maryland had to cut 7 sports.

Clemson also has cut 4 sports recently.
When faced with construction of a new swimming facility, Clemson simply phased out their men's and women's swimming programs plus men's diving.
https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/ne...-programs/
Just two years ago the women's diving program went too.
https://swimswam.com/clemson-drops-final...ns-diving/

To Clemson's credit, they honored all of the scholarships offered through graduation, if the swimmers/divers chose to remain at Clemson and not transfer to another swimming program.
Women's softball was added at Clemson to replace Women's Diving.
05-26-2019 06:13 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Nerdlinger Offline
Realignment Enthusiast
*

Posts: 4,933
Joined: May 2017
Reputation: 428
I Root For: Realignment!
Location: Schmlocation
Post: #119
RE: What if ACC expansion had gone according to plan?
(05-25-2019 08:54 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Nerd,

Miami had no say in divisions. Divisions are based on the various school's list of what they want and what they don't want.

1. UNC has to play Duke, UVa, and NC State every year, and wants to play GT every year and wants to avoid Clemson and FSU
2. NC State has to play UNC, Clemson, and WF every year and wants to play MD and avoid FSU
3. UVa has to play UNC and VT every year, and wants to play WF, Duke, MD, and GT every year
4. WF has to play NC State every year, and wants to play UNC, Duke, UVa, VT, and Clemson.
5. Duke has to play UNC every year, and wants to play WF, UNC, VT, and NC State every year.
6. MD wants to play UVa, UNC, NC State, VT every year
7. Clemson has to play FSU and GT every year, and wants to play NC State, UVa, and UNC every year. They want to avoid Duke
8. GT has to play Duke and Clemson every year, and wants to play UNC every year and wants to avoid FSU every year
9. FSU has to play Miami every year, and wants to play GT and Clemson every year and wants to avoid WF and Duke every year

That's what you have to juggle and what makes 5 of nine happy is what goes. FSU and UNC are going to be made happy and that results in the blues all together. Once FSU and Miami are split, Clemson ends up with FSU. Once you make FSU and UNC happy, knowing FSU and Miami have to be split you get:

A - UNC/Duke/UVa/Miami/TBD/TBD
B - FSU/Clemson/TBD/TBD/TBD/TBD

Then you put in GT/NCSU/MD and they almost auto-sort.

When these decisions were made, Clemson had been mediocre by their standards for some time. From 92-2004 if you awarded points 4, 3, 2, 1 for place of finish 1-4 in the ACC, over that time span FSU has 50 points, UNC 14, UVa 12, GT 11, NC State and Clemson 8, and MD 7. At 12, you are seeing the ones you don't play on an annual basis every three years instead of the current 6.

What's fair on the field doesn't match what the AD's want regarding football ticketing policies. When MD left, the divisions should have been shuffled rather than substituting Louisville for MD because that was a straight loss for Atlantic Division recruiting. Pitt, VT, or UVa should have taken MD's old spot giving Atlantic teams a game in Pa or Va as consolation for losing DC.

Interesting point about schools looking to avoid sharing a division with others! I can see why GT wouldn't want to be in a division with FSU, but at the time, I'd think sharing a division with Miami would have been similarly undesirable.

I could certainly be wrong, but some of your "has to play" and "wants to play" seem to be based more on the outcome of the realignment or on present day rivalry strength rather than contemporary. For instance, was NCSU/WF that much more important to preserve than Duke/NCSU? And was the Clemson/FSU rivalry all that strong at the time? These questions aren't meant to be rhetorical -- I genuinely don't know the answers.

That's a fair point about Louisville replacing Maryland. You can't move Virginia to the Atlantic because that would break up UNC/UVA, and moving VT would make the Atlantic even stronger relative to the Coastal than it already was. So that leaves Pitt, which gives us this:

Atlantic/Coastal
Boston College/Virginia Tech
Clemson/Georgia Tech
Florida State/Miami-FL
NC State/North Carolina
Pittsburgh/Louisville
Syracuse/Virginia
Wake Forest/Duke

Still sucks for Miami, with no northeastern teams in their division.
(This post was last modified: 05-26-2019 10:03 PM by Nerdlinger.)
05-26-2019 08:51 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Statefan Offline
Banned

Posts: 3,511
Joined: May 2018
I Root For: .
Location:
Post: #120
RE: What if ACC expansion had gone according to plan?
(05-26-2019 05:15 AM)TerpsNPhoenix Wrote:  
(05-26-2019 01:02 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  Back to the original point, I believe if ACC had gone as originally planned, the ACC would have been @ 12 members (BC, Clemson, Duke, FSU, GT, Maryland, Miami[FL], N.C. State, Syracuse, UNC, Virginia, Wake Forest). I am not sure if Maryland still leaves for the Big Ten or not in that scenario.
The SEC would look different though. The SEC still takes Texas A&M first, but then would have grabbed Virginia Tech instead of taking a gamble on Mizzou. Texas A&M-Virginia Tech is then branded as the “Big Military Classic of the South,” while Mizzou would have faced an uncertain future in the Big XII. Assuming Maryland still gets poached by the Big Ten, I believe Pittsburgh, not Louisville would have got the call.

So, both Missouri & Louisville benefited because of the ACC expansion not going according to plan.

Maryland is still most likely to leave because CASH. Trying to keep up with UNC/UVA in sponsoring sports and having leadership "issues". Not a great combo. Maryland had to cut 7 sports.

Maryland did not leave because of cash. Cash was used as an excuse to cover a vanity project of Kirwan's. Maryland has been unable to raise money for quite some time since rocket scientists there commingled donations on top of not ever having a really robust fund raising arm for the last 30 years. The MD administration would not allow the AD to cut any sports until the move to the B10 - administration wanted the sports program run into the ground.
05-27-2019 09:17 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2024 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
We allow third-party companies to serve ads and/or collect certain anonymous information when you visit our web site. These companies may use non-personally identifiable information (e.g., click stream information, browser type, time and date, subject of advertisements clicked or scrolled over) during your visits to this and other Web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services likely to be of greater interest to you. These companies typically use a cookie or third party web beacon to collect this information. To learn more about this behavioral advertising practice or to opt-out of this type of advertising, you can visit http://www.networkadvertising.org.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2024 MyBB Group.