(01-30-2019 09:54 AM)Statefan Wrote: (01-27-2019 07:10 PM)cubucks Wrote: (01-27-2019 06:55 PM)JRsec Wrote: (01-27-2019 05:59 PM)cubucks Wrote: (01-27-2019 04:05 PM)Statefan Wrote: The issue is hypocrisy. Saying one thing, particularly preaching that one thing, and then doing another.
Cheating in college sports is one thing for example. Cheating and then claiming you never cheat is hypocrisy.
The B10 has a lot of mouth regarding certain issues or perhaps it's more to the point to say that Michigan has a lot of mouth and the Big 10 follows along to the tune.
The genesis of much of the Big 10 mouth is animus toward the South's Jim Crow policies - a legitimate issue when Jim Crow ran almost all of the South. I'm not equating Jim Crow with Michigan and other upper Mid-West anti-Catholic bias. It's really not even a close thing. But it was a thing.
Claiming that you are somehow better because you schedule MAC type programs as opposed to FCS programs is that type of hypocrisy, especially if you can't beat the Southern schools when you do meet on the football field.
Hi Statefan! Since I've been pretty vocal on this thread I'd like to respond to your post.
First, 100% agree with your hypocrisy statement pertaining to cheating.
Next, I'm simply assuming but it sounds like you believe Michigan leads and the rest follow in this Conference? Well that would be completely false. Everybody has an equal voice in this conference and it is and always has been STABLE because of this.
The North (Big 10) has ill feelings towards racist Jim Crow laws? I'm just totally confused about this statement or why you made it to get your point across? Maybe I'm just not smart enough to see the point?
Lastly, I do know the Big 10 is 43-32 vs the ACC the last 20 years. Also, we are 34-48 vs the SEC. The ACC is 80-101vs the SEC. I would call this hypocrisy on your part too, would you agree with that? Only including the SEC in this conversation because you stated the BIG couldn't win games vs the South.
Anyways, I think we all have become a little bit of NCST fans with the Jimmy V foundation and what it does for cancer research. Like it was said, cancer touches us all and it surely has touched my family. Man, seeing him run across the court looking for someone to hug after winning the National championship. One of the greatest moments in sports history!
Take care!
Jim Crow died in the SEC in the very early 70's after John McKay's USC team routed Alabama using black players. The next year Bear offered his first scholarships to African American athletes. By the time Herschel and Bo were running roughshod over opponents Jim Crow was a distant memory. I doubt seriously that even that school up North still pays much mind to it. If they tried to use it in recruiting today the athletes themselves would laugh in their faces.
The real trick to discerning the ACC/SEC record is to subtract games won by Clemson and Florida State and then look at the ratio.
The ACC middle however is strengthening. Their emphasis of gridiron competitiveness a few years ago has paid some dividends. What they lack that the Big 10 and SEC have are schools capable of making a run. I count 6 in the Big 10 and 8 in the SEC. The ACC legitimately has no more than 4 and two of those have been down for a decade or longer.
Thank you for clearing the air on the Jim Crow statement. I have actually been sitting here since I read it trying to figure out what he meant. Makes since what he was pertaining to but like you said, that statement is now a good 40 years out of date.
War Eagle!!!
What I meant by the Jim Crow comment is that it was often used as an excuse not to travel to the South - the deep South in particular. http://football.stassen.com/records/opponent.html
Let's start at 2010 and look back. Michigan has played 3 games in 100 years in the old Confederacy, Vandy in 1922 and at UNC and Duke in 65 and 68. Ohio State has played three, SMU in 1977, LSU in 1987, and NC State in 2004. Iowa has played one TCU in 1968.
Let's dial it back to 1985. Wisconsin has played four LSU in 72, Rice in 1952, SMU in 1993. Illinois has played at Duke in 1958, Florida in 1967, TAMU in 1975. Indiana went to SMU in 1930, Texas in 65 and 66, Baylor in 71, and LSU in 1978. Wisconsin went to Rice in 1952, and LSU in 1972.
My point. poorly articulated, was that Big 10 schools have avoided playing in the rural South since the inception of the Western Conference. Jim Crow policies was also meant to refer to certain education and accommodation disparities that would make trip to the rural Deep South unappealing to someone attached to the likes of scUM. (That's an Ohio State joke).
What you see in the data is only the most grudging willingness to go to the Research Triangle of NC, Dallas, Houston, and New Orleans. The actual racial makeup of the squads is not the issue.
It's about where you felt comfortable taking your staff, their wives, your traveling boosters, etc., etc. USC and Bear Bryant did not change that overnight. I can recall stories about Michigan State's trip to Raleigh in 1975. Some of their people actually expected the Klan to show up to meet them. (We assuaged they fears I am told by assuring them that NC Highway patrol kept them bottled up in their Davidson and Caswell County hollers and that they could not afford a ticket)
This is not a cultural sociology forum but explaining Jim Crow to Yankees, West Coasters, and Midwesterners is exceedingly difficult. The obvious racial aspect overshadows the Jim Crow social caste system that also delineates where certain whites fit in that caste system. I think JR would likely agree that Jim Crow is an obvious racial apartied system that is used to control non-white classes, BUT ALSO, the lower white classes in a less obvious system.
Many Americans are not comfortable discussing or recognizing social class.
Having lived among the Big 10 and in the Deep South I find this to be hooey. Football until 1983 remained largely regional. The fans cared about playing regionally.
If you want to talk about race then let's look at the riots in Pontiac in the first half of the 70's when busing and integration of neighborhood schools segregated by class economics was imposed upon the North. There were towns in Michigan in the 60's that had a curfew law against African Americans.
Anyone who claims they thought they would meet the Klan in Raleigh Durham was an idiot and not worthy of claiming any intellectual superiority.
After Oklahoma/Georgia vs the NCAA television networks got involved. They wanted larger viewing audiences and saw a quick fix to the regionalism by encouraging cross conference games.
There's you damned answer pure and simple.
For those of us who have lived long enough and traveled well enough you would know that racism existed everywhere in this country. Riots in Chicago and Los Angelos predated those in Pontiac and Boston, and all of them came after Little Rock and Selma. Jim Crow for SEC football disappeared after Bear and McKay played. That's an event that has had documentaries built around it.
Football in Washington and Oregon and Northern California had a flavor all of its own. It was all predicated on local rivalries and the West Coast fans had to drive farther for it than just about anywhere else when you tied it to L.A.. Prior to the late 60's there was nothing in Arizona which is why they were small schools by PAC terms.
The Big 8 and SWC and SEC and ACC all played local schedules as did the Big 10 and none of them traveled miles and miles for games, except for Notre Dame. They played locally because if fans were lucky they might get to see their team on TV once or twice a season. So if you wanted to see a game you drove and since you drove to the games your A.D. wanted you to be able to make as many as possible because that's where the bulk of the revenue came from.
Only the wealth of television could entice Ohio State to Baton Rouge, or Auburn to fly to Eugene to open next year.
The games in the early 70's between Alabama and USC were a contrivance because the bowls precluded the two being able to meet in the post season.
Regionalism is why the schools didn't play one another it sure a hell wasn't Jim Crow laws.
Now in the Northeast Syracuse experienced problems playing in West Virginia because their black athletes were subjected to some heavy duty racial hazing. So in areas that had diverse adaptation to integration there were some issues, but those were happening in the 50's and early 60's.
What people forget is that WWII cracked the color barrier in the U.S.A.. Many parts of the North didn't integrate until the post War late 40's through the early 50's. The South was resistant until the mid to late 60's. In the great scheme of things there's very little difference. Jackie Robinson didn't break the color barrier in baseball until '47. Part of the Big 10 and PAC's dominance in football in the 60's was because they were able to recruit top African American athletes from the South and many other regions. Oklahoma and Nebraska did as well. It was pressure from programs winning with black players that pressured Texas, and later Alabama to change their policies and with them the rest of their conferences.
But the reason there were so few games between regions and conferences was because there were few games on TV, fans had to actually go to see their schools play, A.D.'s wanted a schedule as friendly to the fans as possible, and that meant games they could conceivably drive to. It didn't have beans to do with Jim Crow.