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(05-08-2018 07:22 AM)757ODU Wrote:  I was told, by a former player during the WKU game, that Blaine's teams would've run both of those teams out of the gym. He was speaking about WKU and ODU obviously.

This isn’t even remotely up for debate.

Jones’s teams have been beaten by every veteran, talented team they’ve played.

Blaine’s experienced team’s would have crushed this team. Who’s guarding baze? Who’s stopping Gerald lee and frank Hassell with carter coming off the bench to pop 3’s?

That’s right......no one.

(05-08-2018 07:49 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(05-08-2018 07:39 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(05-08-2018 06:13 AM)monarx Wrote:  

(05-08-2018 05:45 AM)T-Mac Wrote:  If you're dumb enough to include Navy and Richmond's runs, you must now include Memphis, Louisville, Marquette, Cincinnati, and the likes for CUSA. This debate ended once you were silly enough to chime in.

Fact is, the CAA was never as good as you misremember it being. It had 1-2 great regular seasons and 3-4 great postseasons in the 30 seasons we were a member. In that same span, CUSA has been better 95% of the seasons.


Sent from my Pixel XL using CSNbbs mobile app

It would be more fair to compare the old CAA to the Sun Belt (now CUSA) over that time since a lot of the teams now in CUSA were in the SB at the time we were in the CAA. In that case the CAA was better most of the time. Comparing old records should have the CAA vs the AAC (or old CUSA) in which case you are correct that 95% of the time they were better.

We are comparing the CAA when we were in it to CUSA today. Aside from maybe MTSU in '16-'17, nobody has come close to reaching the level of play that the top 4 of the CAA reached in almost every year between 2004 and 2011. Go to YouTube and watch the highlights for an eye test. Even some of the Hofstra, Drexel, and Northeastern teams that never made the dance played at a higher level. That is why GMU and VCU made their big runs. They were accustomed to stepping up their level of play and were able to sustain it. All of us were winning big games OOC as well, which is a rarity in CUSA.

And that CAA is dead.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the debate we are having.

This team and the modern day CUSA is nothing compared to the heyday of the caa. Period. Not even up for discussion.

(05-08-2018 08:16 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(05-08-2018 07:56 AM)ODUBB35 Wrote:  

(05-08-2018 07:39 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(05-08-2018 06:13 AM)monarx Wrote:  

(05-08-2018 05:45 AM)T-Mac Wrote:  If you're dumb enough to include Navy and Richmond's runs, you must now include Memphis, Louisville, Marquette, Cincinnati, and the likes for CUSA. This debate ended once you were silly enough to chime in.

Fact is, the CAA was never as good as you misremember it being. It had 1-2 great regular seasons and 3-4 great postseasons in the 30 seasons we were a member. In that same span, CUSA has been better 95% of the seasons.


Sent from my Pixel XL using CSNbbs mobile app

It would be more fair to compare the old CAA to the Sun Belt (now CUSA) over that time since a lot of the teams now in CUSA were in the SB at the time we were in the CAA. In that case the CAA was better most of the time. Comparing old records should have the CAA vs the AAC (or old CUSA) in which case you are correct that 95% of the time they were better.

We are comparing the CAA when we were in it to CUSA today. Aside from maybe MTSU in '16-'17, nobody has come close to reaching the level of play that the top 4 of the CAA reached in almost every year between 2004 and 2011. Go to YouTube and watch the highlights for an eye test. Even some of the Hofstra, Drexel, and Northeastern teams that never made the dance played at a higher level. That is why GMU and VCU made their big runs. They were accustomed to stepping up their level of play and were able to sustain it. All of us were winning big games OOC as well, which is a rarity in CUSA.

You have to schedule them first.

This year's CUSA would have been compatible with most of the good CAA years. The last few CAA years were exceptional, but CUSA has the potential to be even better (if they can keep their good players from transferring).

The best CAA years were usually ODU, VCU, GMU, and one other (Drexel, Hofstra, UNCW, etc.) Other than that, even I the best years, the conference wasn't that good.

CUSA has the potential to get 7 or 8 teams to that level, it just hasn't happened yet. Of course, we'll also have 7 or 8 sucky teams, but that's what you get in a 14 team football-first conference.

The CUSA champ, for the past 4 season, accomplished most or more than what the CAA champ did most years. It's not likely that we will match the fluke Final Four runs of VCU and GMU, but who knows? (That's why they were flukes).

MTSU played 3 at large teams (Miami, Auburn, USC) and went 0-3.

Winning a game in the NCAA tournament can be a fluke. Winning 4 or 5 games is not a fluke. Every win in the last 4 years was followed by a blowout loss. I'm more apt to see those wins as flukes than wins followed by more wins over the likes of UNC, UConn (in their prime), Purdue, FSU, and Kansas. It is not like either GMU or VCU's bracket fell apart with upsets and they got to cakewalk through double digit seeds.

FWIW, I do think the '16-'17 MTSU team was legit, could have been an at-large team in the old CAA, and also could have done more damage in the NCAA tournament if they didn't get Butler'd.

“That’s a bingo!” - hans landa

(05-08-2018 10:59 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(05-08-2018 10:51 AM)FearTheLion Wrote:  

(05-08-2018 07:22 AM)757ODU Wrote:  I was told, by a former player during the WKU game, that Blaine's teams would've run both of those teams out of the gym. He was speaking about WKU and ODU obviously.

That must've been a helluva ODU team back then because I don't think I saw anyone run WKU off the court this year...CUSA, G5 or P5 even.

But I do remember that CAA-laden ODU squad that people are raving about on here get smashed by 40+ at home against UAB. And I believe they got us good down in Birmingham as well during those tremendous CAA years. I trying hard to remember that happening over the past 5-6 years to I can get my perspective right. Lol.

Our 2010 team was probably the best we ever had. 2011 was a step below that.

Other than those 2 teams, last years team ranks pretty high up historically. Maybe not the best, but certainly in the conversation. FWIW, former players always think they are better than the current group. Its like our generation thinking the following generation are lazy, empowered, yada yada

Each post is worse than the previous one, unreal!

You probably weren’t a fan back then and don’t remember but Alex loughton, Dahi, vasylius, drew Williamson and hunter would run this team completely off the court and it’s not even remotely up for debate.

The 04-05, 05-06, 06-07 and the finney/baze/lee/hassell teams would all run every single one of jones’s teams off the court.

Again there is not even an ounce of room for debate about this.

(05-08-2018 11:13 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  Yeah, Mike Anderson was the one guy that had Blaine's number. He ran us off the court when he was at UAB and again when he was at Missouri. We went 0-4 against him in those 2 series. Good thing is we were able to balance those losses with big wins.

Also, the 05-06 UAB team that ran us out of the gym was a top 50 team that went on to be a 9 seed in the NCAA tournament (at-large) so you aren't comparing apples to apples when you try to draw a parallel to the current UAB program that has finished with RPIs of 142, 153, 122, 81, 199, and 155, respectively, since we joined CUSA. That would be like dismissing Blaine's top 10 wins at Georgetown because they suck today. UAB cannot be happy with where their program has gone in recent years either.

Who you beat is far more important than who you lose to on an off night.

Blaine’s teams beat teams like ranked Georgetown, Clemson, Xavier, final 4 Vcu (twice), final 4 gmu, notre dame etc.

Who is Jeff jones best win? Murray state? Our best win last year was a barely top 100 Marshall who matched up extremely poorly with us.

We’ve beaten NO ONE in 5 years. Do we even have one top 50 win? I really don’t know.

(05-08-2018 01:14 PM)FearTheLion Wrote:  

(05-08-2018 10:59 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Our 2010 team was probably the best we ever had. 2011 was a step below that.

Other than those 2 teams, last years team ranks pretty high up historically. Maybe not the best, but certainly in the conversation. FWIW, former players always think they are better than the current group. Its like our generation thinking the following generation are lazy, empowered, yada yada

Well we certainly agree on the generation thing. Cuz I don't think 2010 could've beaten those teams that went back-to-back NCAA at larges back in the Sun Belt days. We had too much size at EVERY position. That 82-83 team had G Robinson and C Smith, a national All American, in the backcourt; Gattison, who was every bit the tank that Hassell was inside, 6'10" Hanley at the 3 knocking down jump shots? Guys like Mark Davis, a 6'5" freak of an athlete, who later went to the NBA, and didn't even crack the starting lineup until his Jr year, and even more size coming off the bench that could score it like R Wade, H Lambert and F Facka and they got limited minutes on those squads? Way too much size and they could score it. I'm amazed that we're even talking about 2010 being the most talented. But I'll stop and let you all keep going with the GOAT talk.

He might legitimately be Jeff jones. It’s a 50/50 chance because he has no historical perspective on odu basketball whatsoever.

Not a single one of Jeff jones’s teams would crack the top 10 best teams in odu history. Top 15 is even a stretch.

I think the Gatling team or the bowdler/poag would probably rank ahead of these teams as well.

Again we’ve beaten NO ONE worth a damn but ran up some high win totals that made our rpi and kenpom numbers look flattering when we really weren’t all that good.

Remember what a leader finney was? What a leader baze was his senior year? Hell even freeman was a great leader that jones inherited. Valdas was a leader his senior year. Hunter was a leader.

I like caver, but he is not a clutch player and this team hasn’t had a leader since freeman graduated. It shows up time and time again in the big games. No one rises to the occasion.

(05-08-2018 09:20 PM)Razor Ramon Monarch Wrote:  

(05-08-2018 07:22 AM)757ODU Wrote:  I was told, by a former player during the WKU game, that Blaine's teams would've run both of those teams out of the gym. He was speaking about WKU and ODU obviously.

This isn’t even remotely up for debate.

Jones’s teams have been beaten by every veteran, talented team they’ve played.

Blaine’s experienced team’s would have crushed this team. Who’s guarding baze? Who’s stopping Gerald lee and frank Hassell with carter coming off the bench to pop 3’s?

That’s right......no one.

Yep, other than point guard, Blaine's teams were better at every position. And all Blaine's PGs had to do in his system was manage the game and limit turnovers.

(05-08-2018 09:47 PM)Razor Ramon Monarch Wrote:  

(05-08-2018 01:14 PM)FearTheLion Wrote:  

(05-08-2018 10:59 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Our 2010 team was probably the best we ever had. 2011 was a step below that.

Other than those 2 teams, last years team ranks pretty high up historically. Maybe not the best, but certainly in the conversation. FWIW, former players always think they are better than the current group. Its like our generation thinking the following generation are lazy, empowered, yada yada

Well we certainly agree on the generation thing. Cuz I don't think 2010 could've beaten those teams that went back-to-back NCAA at larges back in the Sun Belt days. We had too much size at EVERY position. That 82-83 team had G Robinson and C Smith, a national All American, in the backcourt; Gattison, who was every bit the tank that Hassell was inside, 6'10" Hanley at the 3 knocking down jump shots? Guys like Mark Davis, a 6'5" freak of an athlete, who later went to the NBA, and didn't even crack the starting lineup until his Jr year, and even more size coming off the bench that could score it like R Wade, H Lambert and F Facka and they got limited minutes on those squads? Way too much size and they could score it. I'm amazed that we're even talking about 2010 being the most talented. But I'll stop and let you all keep going with the GOAT talk.

He might legitimately be Jeff jones. It’s a 50/50 chance because he has no historical perspective on odu basketball whatsoever.

Not a single one of Jeff jones’s teams would crack the top 10 best teams in odu history. Top 15 is even a stretch.

I think the Gatling team or the bowdler/poag would probably rank ahead of these teams as well.

Again we’ve beaten NO ONE worth a damn but ran up some high win totals that made our rpi and kenpom numbers look flattering when we really weren’t all that good.

Remember what a leader finney was? What a leader baze was his senior year? Hell even freeman was a great leader that jones inherited. Valdas was a leader his senior year. Hunter was a leader.

I like caver, but he is not a clutch player and this team hasn’t had a leader since freeman graduated. It shows up time and time again in the big games. No one rises to the occasion.

Precisely. I don't know if it is Jeff or poor vetting of recruits, but nobody, aside from Freeman, has been able to raise their game to the next level when the stakes are high since Jeff has been here. They are terrific when faced against UMES, Charlotte, and FAU. It is really amazing how time and time again nobody steps up and when someone tries, it is bricks.

(05-09-2018 11:39 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(05-08-2018 09:47 PM)Razor Ramon Monarch Wrote:  

(05-08-2018 01:14 PM)FearTheLion Wrote:  

(05-08-2018 10:59 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Our 2010 team was probably the best we ever had. 2011 was a step below that.

Other than those 2 teams, last years team ranks pretty high up historically. Maybe not the best, but certainly in the conversation. FWIW, former players always think they are better than the current group. Its like our generation thinking the following generation are lazy, empowered, yada yada

Well we certainly agree on the generation thing. Cuz I don't think 2010 could've beaten those teams that went back-to-back NCAA at larges back in the Sun Belt days. We had too much size at EVERY position. That 82-83 team had G Robinson and C Smith, a national All American, in the backcourt; Gattison, who was every bit the tank that Hassell was inside, 6'10" Hanley at the 3 knocking down jump shots? Guys like Mark Davis, a 6'5" freak of an athlete, who later went to the NBA, and didn't even crack the starting lineup until his Jr year, and even more size coming off the bench that could score it like R Wade, H Lambert and F Facka and they got limited minutes on those squads? Way too much size and they could score it. I'm amazed that we're even talking about 2010 being the most talented. But I'll stop and let you all keep going with the GOAT talk.

He might legitimately be Jeff jones. It’s a 50/50 chance because he has no historical perspective on odu basketball whatsoever.

Not a single one of Jeff jones’s teams would crack the top 10 best teams in odu history. Top 15 is even a stretch.

I think the Gatling team or the bowdler/poag would probably rank ahead of these teams as well.

Again we’ve beaten NO ONE worth a damn but ran up some high win totals that made our rpi and kenpom numbers look flattering when we really weren’t all that good.

Remember what a leader finney was? What a leader baze was his senior year? Hell even freeman was a great leader that jones inherited. Valdas was a leader his senior year. Hunter was a leader.

I like caver, but he is not a clutch player and this team hasn’t had a leader since freeman graduated. It shows up time and time again in the big games. No one rises to the occasion.

Precisely. I don't know if it is Jeff or poor vetting of recruits, but nobody, aside from Freeman, has been able to raise their game to the next level when the stakes are high since Jeff has been here. They are terrific when faced against UMES, Charlotte, and FAU. It is really amazing how time and time again nobody steps up and when someone tries, it is bricks.

Guys, your memories, experiences and thoughts are great and all, but unless you can back it up with KenPom ratings it really means nothing...

KenPom is the absolute decide all system

Oh and by the way, if you dont agree I'm just going to block you so I dont have to read the TRUTH

(05-08-2018 01:14 PM)FearTheLion Wrote:  

(05-08-2018 10:59 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Our 2010 team was probably the best we ever had. 2011 was a step below that.

Other than those 2 teams, last years team ranks pretty high up historically. Maybe not the best, but certainly in the conversation. FWIW, former players always think they are better than the current group. Its like our generation thinking the following generation are lazy, empowered, yada yada

Well we certainly agree on the generation thing. Cuz I don't think 2010 could've beaten those teams that went back-to-back NCAA at larges back in the Sun Belt days. We had too much size at EVERY position. That 82-83 team had G Robinson and C Smith, a national All American, in the backcourt; Gattison, who was every bit the tank that Hassell was inside, 6'10" Hanley at the 3 knocking down jump shots? Guys like Mark Davis, a 6'5" freak of an athlete, who later went to the NBA, and didn't even crack the starting lineup until his Jr year, and even more size coming off the bench that could score it like R Wade, H Lambert and F Facka and they got limited minutes on those squads? Way too much size and they could score it. I'm amazed that we're even talking about 2010 being the most talented. But I'll stop and let you all keep going with the GOAT talk.

Clarence Hanley was a freshman and appeared in 6 games and avg an astronomical 2.7 minutes in those 6 games in 82-83. That is 16 total minutes played for those keeping score at home.


The center on that team was a guy named Mark West. The Mark West that went on to a 17 year NBA career and still has the 2nd highest FG% in NBA history.

Hanley's big year was 85-86 when we beat WVU in the first round and got crushed by #1 seed Duke in the 2nd round.

The announcer on TV prior to the game against WVU said, "Old Dominion has a 6-4 guard who plays like he is 6-10. They have a 6-10 center [Hanley] who plays like he is 6-4".

We've had players who could jump out of the gym. Hanley couldn't jump out of his shoes.

Hanley almost had a vertical measured in negative numbers. He could not jump. He could shoot, and if he played in today's game he might have been a commodity as a big man who could step out and shoot. But your memory of him is skewed. Hanley was slow footed and could not jump.

That 82-83 team had West, 17 years in the NBA, Gattison, 10 years in the league, and Davis who spent parts of 2 seasons in the NBA. AND DID NOT go to the NCAAs. Lost to South Carolina in the first round of the NIT. Smith was not an All-American, he never avg more than 12.1 points a game and only 10.3 for his career. I loved him. One of my all time favorites at ODU, but he was not an AA.

The back to back NCAAs with Hanley was 84-85 (coached by Paul Webb) & 85-86 (coach by Tom Young). Stupid big money donors forced Jarrett to push Webb out because we always lost in the first round under Webb and had a completely lackluster offense. A writer at the Pilot, George McClellan said ODU would rue the day that Webb was forced out. He was so right. Young almost destroyed the program.

I wonder if these are the same donors so infatuated with JJ?

Ads yet the program bounced back quite nicely, which ought to serve as a lesson for those who think JJ will leave us ruined forever and we'll never be any good again.

Your recall of that is pretty much spot on True Blue. There is a good reason that both West and Gattison have their numbers retired at ODU. They played like men.

I was there for both games in Greensboro in the mid 80's and enjoyed the WVA game more than the Duke game. The biggest difference to me was in Duke's guard play. Smith had trouble keeping their point guard from stealing the ball from him coming up court, and their shooting guard (forgot his name but he was famous) was very good. Gattison did alright inside but didn't have much help against Alerie and the other big inside (the guy that does TV commentary today - forgot his name).

It was Dawkins and Amaker, and Frank Smith had a nightmare game.

(05-09-2018 01:03 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  Your recall of that is pretty much spot on True Blue. There is a good reason that both West and Gattison have their numbers retired at ODU. They played like men.

I was there for both games in Greensboro in the mid 80's and enjoyed the WVA game more than the Duke game. The biggest difference to me was in Duke's guard play. Smith had trouble keeping their point guard from stealing the ball from him coming up court, and their shooting guard (forgot his name but he was famous) was very good. Gattison did alright inside but didn't have much help against Alerie and the other big inside (the guy that does TV commentary today - forgot his name).

I knew most of that from memory. Had to look up Hanley's stats.

I loved Charlie Smith. I actually cried a little when I heard he had passed away. In Gatt's freshman year I was dating a girl from W&M. We saw both games with them together. Yes we played them 2X out of conference. In the return game in the 'burg they were beating the crap out of us. We came back and won. Our comeback was ignited by a steal at mid court by Smith and a tremendous over the rim tomahawk dunk. The single greatest dunk in ODU history until that one by Pierre Green his SR year. Both of which got surpassed by several by Richard Ross....

But even the W&M crowd was amazed at Smith's dunk. It was awesome to see that.

So honest question the 82-83 team had 3 players who played in the NBA. They did not go the Big Dance, and it was two or three seasons before the field expanded to 64 teams. Team finished 19-12. That was the last year the NBA had so many rounds. The Sun Belt would have more players drafted than any conference in the country. Not a lot of 1st-4th rounders but Sun Belt had the most total players drafted. It was a good and deep conference. I have no doubt we'd have gotten an at-large if 64 teams went. But they didn't go, and lost in the first round of the NIT. Do they still rank in top ODU teams of 'all time' and be considered better than say the team that beat Notre Dame in the first round?

I'm on the fence.

Webb's team played with his Division 3 offense. I admire Paul Webb but he was no offensive genius. Pass the ball three times around the perimeter and try to get it to West and Gattison. The 3 pointer was in it's first or 2nd season. No teams shot them as often as today. ODU attempted 72 the whole season and opponents 127. In 09-10 ODU attempted 523 treys and opponents 653. Baze was better than Charlie Smith or Keith Thomas, pure and simple. As a group Hassell, Lee, Finney and Carter were more versatile than West, Gattison Wade and Lambert. West and Gattison were beasts inside but had zero handles. Carter and Lee could play inside and out. West's shooting range was maybe out to 7 feet (sort of why he has the 2nd highest shooting % in NBA history). Gattison was a freshman or sophomore, and was not yet an NBA caliber guy. Lee would have forced one of them to play him out from the basket, creating opportunites for Frank, Ben and Keyon. I think Darius is a toss up for Robinson. Robinson was a pure passing PG. At least James could drive and shoot some from outside. James made for 3 pointers than the whole ODU 82-83 team, 36 to 27. Blaine's teams played defense. No one can deny that. In the long run, I think the Baze team had more offense. The 82-83 team allowed 66 points a game when teams weren't shooting a lot of 3s. 2010 team allowed almost 9 points less a game in an era when 3 pointers are a designed aspect of the game. If you take 3 pointers out of the equation the 2010 team allowed 12 points less a game than the 83 team. The 2010 team attempted 523 3 pointers. yet we scored 2 points less a game than '83, but also held opponents to 57.5. I think the 09-10 teams could have played interior defense with nearly as much efficiency as the 82-83 team, but had much more perimeter firepower. It may have been a 49-50 bloodbath, but I still think 09-10 would have won.

(05-09-2018 12:45 PM)ODU True Blue Wrote:  Smith was not an All-American, he never avg more than 12.1 points a game and only 10.3 for his career. I loved him. One of my all time favorites at ODU, but he was not an AA.

Charlie Smith was a 1981 Converse All-American. It was a thing back then and that, my friend, was a fact. He was also a finalist for McDonalds All American and missed out due to Jeff Adkins, a Virginia player and UMD recruit who took the last guard spot in that game.

All the rest you say is true. Mark West was the stud on that team and I was writing so much about the team's size, I forgot to include the most dominant defensive force we've ever had.

But back to Charlie...if you asked Paul, Eddie, or Ollie, I'm certain all three would concur that coming out of HS, Smith was an milestone recruit for ODU as a Converse AA. Shame he later was found in a diabetic coma and never progressed much past his soph year.

This thread has actually taken a positive turn - We were good once.

Not only was he a Converse All American before committing to ODU, he actually represented USA basketball as a freshman All-American after playing his first year here. He along with several of America's best freshmen did a tour in Australia.

http://www.urbanyouthinc.com/cs2010v2.htm

(05-09-2018 04:03 PM)ODU_NYG Wrote:  This thread has actually taken a positive turn - We were good once.

Lol...sorry. Let's get this thing back on track.

Just another reason why --