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It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #21
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
(12-10-2017 02:23 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(12-10-2017 01:55 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(12-10-2017 01:42 PM)Bogg Wrote:  
(12-10-2017 09:20 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(12-10-2017 08:21 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  OP, you did this. Just go ahead and merge FBS and FCS. Make the FCS playoffs an invitational, with no penalty for declining. The playoffs would be like the basketball NCAAs, the lesser (or other bowls, for fans of the Rose and Sugar when they're not in the playoff rotation) would be like the NIT, and the FCS playoffs would be like the CBI.

Success at one level doesn't mean success at the next. Why would Montana want to become Wyoming?

Georgia Southern dominated FCS 20 years ago with 6 championships and 2 runnerups in a 16 year period. Do they want a regular dose of 2-10 seasons like this year? I actually think they have a better chance than the Dakota schools. Georgia Southern has a lot of talent nearby and no college competition in the southern half of Georgia.

I'm in this boat. G5 football is a losing proposition. Why go from playing for NCAA championships to struggling to hit.500 and make it to the Gus' Tire Shop Bowl in inland Alabama?

Yeah. Im not convinced the administration at JMU has any real interest in FBS. There are a lot of indications they really dont and just play lip service to the concept to appease fans. Some of the dominate northern FCS schools in Montana and the Dakotas I suspect feel the same way. They know they are located in lightly populated areas with very cold climates. They know the appeal of the FBS football really wont change the attendence numbers much (their attendance potential is already pretty much capped out) and they know a big TV deal wont be part of the move. The reality is a move to FBS isn't really all that attractive to the administrations of these schools. They see it as a quantum leap in costs with no similar quantum leap in potential benefits.

Whether they feel it's beneficial or not, they've outgrown FCS. Time for new challenges. They can always move back down later

These are schools--not sports franchises. There is a cost/benefit analysis that has to make sense to administrators--who, as a whole, are generally a very risk averse bunch. Right now they have full stadiums and compete for championships. You're going to have to make a better case for moving up than "we have nothing more to prove here".
(This post was last modified: 12-10-2017 04:34 PM by Attackcoog.)
12-10-2017 03:27 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #22
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
James Madison at least has regional rivals in the conferences that may add them. I can see your point with NDSU, as all of their regional rivals are at their level.

That said, why not try something else, they have to be bored dominating FCS.
(This post was last modified: 12-11-2017 07:38 PM by _C2_.)
12-10-2017 03:48 PM
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johnbragg Offline
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Post: #23
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
(12-10-2017 03:48 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Jame Madison at least has regional rivals in the conferences that may add them. I can see your point with NDSU, as all of their regional rivals are at their level.

That said, why not try something else, they have to be bored dominating FCS.

Who gets tired of winning? As you said, their regional rivals are at their level. Most likely, they and their regional rivals all discuss the possibility of FBS and the injustice of the fact that they're not FBS for the next decade or two, until some major change in the landscape changes something major.

(What change? I dunno. P5 split? Across the board collapse of college athletics revenues? Football's popularity cratering as the CTE epidemic becomes more known, and more athletic dads coach their talented sons into baseball and hockey and lacrosse? Huge legislation declaring requiring a college degree for jobs to be racial discrimination and replacing it with standardized testing? EMP strike by North Korea? Yellowstone supervolcano? I don't know.)
12-10-2017 04:08 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #24
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
Yes, bored with winning. If I dominated something, I'd want to step up to a challenge.
12-10-2017 04:20 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #25
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
To a new challenge that is.
12-10-2017 04:21 PM
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DavidSt Online
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Post: #26
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
NDSU might be able to sign a deal with ESPN to televised their games. They do get P5 schools signed them to play ball with them. Even their fans do travel to away games. NDSU will be okay at the FBS levels. The other Dakotas might not yet until they start to dominate against FBS schools. MWC could move Utah State and Boise State to the west and add Montana and NDSU. Montana might go for that because of Wyoming and other strong academic schools in the conference.
12-10-2017 04:54 PM
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msm96wolf Offline
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Post: #27
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
I have been a proponent for allowing teams to move up as Independent for a long time. Teams that I could see interested

FCS teams of the top of my head. (Again MAY be interested, do they have the money is another question)
Delaware
Stony Brook
JMU
Kennesaw St
NDSU
Montana
Montana St
Yountstown St
UT-Chat
Northern Kentucky
Missouri St
12-10-2017 04:59 PM
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Bogg Offline
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Post: #28
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
"Alabama football at this point is a boring product with Nick Saban at the helm, there's never any mystery as to whether they'll be good or not. They have nothing left to prove with him as coach. The AD at Alabama should fire Nick Saban to demonstrate that the school is up to the challenge of rebuilding under a different coach. They should do this because it will be hard and they might fail, which would be interesting."
12-10-2017 05:07 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #29
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
(12-10-2017 04:54 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  NDSU might be able to sign a deal with ESPN to televised their games. They do get P5 schools signed them to play ball with them. Even their fans do travel to away games. NDSU will be okay at the FBS levels. The other Dakotas might not yet until they start to dominate against FBS schools. MWC could move Utah State and Boise State to the west and add Montana and NDSU. Montana might go for that because of Wyoming and other strong academic schools in the conference.

Montana wouldn't move without Montana State unless they dropped from FBS or vice versa.
12-10-2017 05:07 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #30
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
(12-10-2017 01:10 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(12-09-2017 03:06 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Rice could be another Duke, Northwestern or Stanford but they have to care first.
"Care" is an odd abbreviation for "more than double their enrollment". Duke, Northwestern and Stanford are between 15,000 and 22,000 students, while Rice is less than 7,000.

At Rice's size, if it wanted to get serious about a higher profile sport than baseball, it ought to target basketball.

(12-10-2017 03:34 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  They have nothing left to prove.

So I take it you want the American to take these two schools. So Houston will have NDSU as part of their regular divisional schedule.
12-10-2017 05:16 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #31
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
(12-10-2017 05:07 PM)Bogg Wrote:  "Alabama football at this point is a boring product with Nick Saban at the helm, there's never any mystery as to whether they'll be good or not. They have nothing left to prove with him as coach. The AD at Alabama should fire Nick Saban to demonstrate that the school is up to the challenge of rebuilding under a different coach. They should do this because it will be hard and they might fail, which would be interesting."

Except Alabama is at the highest level. NDSU isn't. Look at Boise...they won at every level they played at. You'd think they would have stayed at FCS after nearly winning it all in 1994. After all, aren't they a cold weather school with a fanbase that can only grow so large and minimal recruiting options? Had they done that, they'd be Eastern Washington at best today instead of a household name.

They're an exception to the rule but NDSU has been way more successful at FCS than Boise ever was and while its state might as well be in Siberia, NDSU is close to a few states that do have a football recruit or three. They have more name brand recognition than any move up not named Appalachian State or North Texas (because of a few of their former players).
12-10-2017 05:37 PM
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johnbragg Offline
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Post: #32
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
(12-10-2017 05:37 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(12-10-2017 05:07 PM)Bogg Wrote:  "Alabama football at this point is a boring product with Nick Saban at the helm, there's never any mystery as to whether they'll be good or not. They have nothing left to prove with him as coach. The AD at Alabama should fire Nick Saban to demonstrate that the school is up to the challenge of rebuilding under a different coach. They should do this because it will be hard and they might fail, which would be interesting."

Except Alabama is at the highest level. NDSU isn't. Look at Boise...they won at every level they played at. You'd think they would have stayed at FCS after nearly winning it all in 1994. After all, aren't they a cold weather school with a fanbase that can only grow so large and minimal recruiting options? Had they done that, they'd be Eastern Washington at best today instead of a household name.

They're an exception to the rule but NDSU has been way more successful at FCS than Boise ever was and while its state might as well be in Siberia, NDSU is close to a few states that do have a football recruit or three. They have more name brand recognition than any move up not named Appalachian State or North Texas (because of a few of their former players).

For every Boise State, there's an Idaho. For every UConn, there's a UMass.
12-10-2017 05:43 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #33
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
Were any of those teams as dominant as NDSU is at FCS? Idaho had no business moving up in the first place.
12-10-2017 05:59 PM
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msm96wolf Offline
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Post: #34
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
(12-10-2017 05:43 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(12-10-2017 05:37 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(12-10-2017 05:07 PM)Bogg Wrote:  "Alabama football at this point is a boring product with Nick Saban at the helm, there's never any mystery as to whether they'll be good or not. They have nothing left to prove with him as coach. The AD at Alabama should fire Nick Saban to demonstrate that the school is up to the challenge of rebuilding under a different coach. They should do this because it will be hard and they might fail, which would be interesting."

Except Alabama is at the highest level. NDSU isn't. Look at Boise...they won at every level they played at. You'd think they would have stayed at FCS after nearly winning it all in 1994. After all, aren't they a cold weather school with a fanbase that can only grow so large and minimal recruiting options? Had they done that, they'd be Eastern Washington at best today instead of a household name.

They're an exception to the rule but NDSU has been way more successful at FCS than Boise ever was and while its state might as well be in Siberia, NDSU is close to a few states that do have a football recruit or three. They have more name brand recognition than any move up not named Appalachian State or North Texas (because of a few of their former players).

For every Boise State, there's an Idaho. For every UConn, there's a UMass.

Sadly, Idaho was turning the corner before their Pres undercut them. It was a shame what happened to Idaho. I think their will be a Flyover FBS conference one day, hopefully they will get an invite.
12-10-2017 06:05 PM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #35
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
(12-10-2017 04:59 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  I have been a proponent for allowing teams to move up as Independent for a long time. Teams that I could see interested

FCS teams of the top of my head. (Again MAY be interested, do they have the money is another question)
Delaware
Stony Brook
JMU
Kennesaw St
NDSU
Montana
Montana St
Yountstown St
UT-Chat
Northern Kentucky
Missouri St


Have already laid this out:

New Great Northern (formerly the Summit League)
Idaho
EWU
Montana
Mont St
UND
NDSU
SDSU
USD
Plus Omaha and Denver non FB

Atlantic Sun reorganized
Kennesaw St
Jacksonville St
E Kentucky
James Madison
Delaware
Stony Brook
Albany
UT-Chat
Later UNF, FGCU, and UNA
Nonfb in Stetson and Jacksonville

The new WAC
NMSU
Sac St
UCDavis
Cal Poly
Sam Houston St
UTRGV
Lamar
SF Austin
Mo St (fb only)
Wichita St (fb only)
Non fb schools like GCU, UVU, Seattle etc
(This post was last modified: 12-10-2017 06:40 PM by NoDak.)
12-10-2017 06:39 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #36
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
FWIW, I think the MAC has learned not to deal with schools who pegged themselves to post-BE raid CUSA in their viability studies and why they stand pat now.

They are not a consolation prize, and seeing the conference fail to produce better football when the MAC can, AND seeing basketball about even only validates that. JMU wanted desperately to join ODU in CUSA. They probably needn't bother applying to MAC unless they bring ODU with them...a total flake/flight risk until conjoined, and the MAC won't have it.

SDSU and NDSU would be cool, but they are islands, and UNI and other Valley schools wouldn't be enough of a bridge.

Now, Stony and Delaware...
12-10-2017 07:59 PM
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Bogg Offline
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Post: #37
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
(12-10-2017 05:37 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(12-10-2017 05:07 PM)Bogg Wrote:  "Alabama football at this point is a boring product with Nick Saban at the helm, there's never any mystery as to whether they'll be good or not. They have nothing left to prove with him as coach. The AD at Alabama should fire Nick Saban to demonstrate that the school is up to the challenge of rebuilding under a different coach. They should do this because it will be hard and they might fail, which would be interesting."

Except Alabama is at the highest level. NDSU isn't. Look at Boise...they won at every level they played at. You'd think they would have stayed at FCS after nearly winning it all in 1994. After all, aren't they a cold weather school with a fanbase that can only grow so large and minimal recruiting options? Had they done that, they'd be Eastern Washington at best today instead of a household name.

They're an exception to the rule but NDSU has been way more successful at FCS than Boise ever was and while its state might as well be in Siberia, NDSU is close to a few states that do have a football recruit or three. They have more name brand recognition than any move up not named Appalachian State or North Texas (because of a few of their former players).

The point is that doing something just because it's difficult doesn't make it a good idea, and the college football landscape has changed a lot in the last 25 years. If NDSU had a Big 10 invite I'd be right there arguing they should move up, but they'd be looking at a long haul as an FBS independent with no natural conference to fall in to and no natural rivals. It's a recipe for failure, and killing your athletic department just because doesn't make much sense.
12-10-2017 08:29 PM
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jmusuperfan Offline
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Post: #38
It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
(12-10-2017 03:50 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(12-10-2017 03:47 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  Even if it means being an indy, although maybe the MAC will throw the Dakota States a vine if they come as a package deal.

AAC I hear has a couple of openings.

Kittonhead it has been a while. What are you hearing?


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12-10-2017 08:53 PM
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oliveandblue Offline
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Post: #39
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
NDSU or Montana would actually be mid-table in the AAC once they got their bearings set and adjusted to FBS football. There is a reason why those types of programs succeed, and it's not just weak competition.
12-10-2017 10:52 PM
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DavidSt Online
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Post: #40
RE: It's time for Madison and NDSU to move up...
(12-10-2017 07:59 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  FWIW, I think the MAC has learned not to deal with schools who pegged themselves to post-BE raid CUSA in their viability studies and why they stand pat now.

They are not a consolation prize, and seeing the conference fail to produce better football when the MAC can, AND seeing basketball about even only validates that. JMU wanted desperately to join ODU in CUSA. They probably needn't bother applying to MAC unless they bring ODU with them...a total flake/flight risk until conjoined, and the MAC won't have it.

SDSU and NDSU would be cool, but they are islands, and UNI and other Valley schools wouldn't be enough of a bridge.

Now, Stony and Delaware...


NDSU and Minnesota could be OOC rivalries. They are not too far apart. It would be cool to see them play football every year against each other. Home and Home series could be nice.

The issue is I think Eastern Washington and Portland State could be a future MWC schools.

Big Sky with the listing could merge with GNAC football schools, add Dixie State, Colorado Mesa and Colorado State-Pueblo.

Northern Arizona
Southern Utah
Weber State
Portland State
Northern colorado
Idaho State

They add these schools.
humboldt State
Western oregon
Central Washington
Dixie State
Simon Fraser
Colorado Mesa
Colorado State-Pueblo
Azusa Pacific

Portland State to the MWC in the future and move Northern Arizona to the WAC.

North:
Portland State
Western oregon
Central Washington
Simon Fraser
Idaho State
Northern Colorado
Colorado mesa

South:
Weber State
humboldt State
Southern Utah
Dixie State
Azusa Pacific
Northern Arizona
Colorado State-Pueblo

GNAC would become a D2 non-football conference.
12-11-2017 01:04 AM
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