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mrbig Offline
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Post: #11021
RE: Trump Administration
(02-04-2020 05:30 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I mean, if that is the tack you want to take, then Obama's plea to the Russian ambassador on the live mic in asking for time — “particularly with missile defense” — until he is in a better position politically to resolve such issues, then followed with the infamous "After my election I have more flexibility” is *also* an impeachable act.

What Obama said and what Trump did are totally different. Obama didn't ask for anything in return from Russia and he didn't offer anything in return to Russia. He just said he would be in a better place to discuss/negotiate after the election. He didn't withhold millions in aid or a state visit or anything else. With you being an attorney, not sure how you can compare them with a straight face.
02-04-2020 06:13 PM
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Post: #11022
RE: Trump Administration
(02-04-2020 06:13 PM)mrbig Wrote:  
(02-04-2020 05:30 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I mean, if that is the tack you want to take, then Obama's plea to the Russian ambassador on the live mic in asking for time — “particularly with missile defense” — until he is in a better position politically to resolve such issues, then followed with the infamous "After my election I have more flexibility” is *also* an impeachable act.

What Obama said and what Trump did are totally different. Obama didn't ask for anything in return from Russia and he didn't offer anything in return to Russia. He just said he would be in a better place to discuss/negotiate after the election. He didn't withhold millions in aid or a state visit or anything else. With you being an attorney, not sure how you can compare them with a straight face.

He asked for time. In return he offered a better deal after the ELECTION than he could before the ELECTION.

Apparently he wanted to give concessions to Putin that would be a hard sell in the ELECTION. So asking to postpone them was in order to influence the ELECTION.

Funny, how something is always completely different if a Democrat does it.
(This post was last modified: 02-04-2020 06:58 PM by OptimisticOwl.)
02-04-2020 06:57 PM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #11023
RE: Trump Administration
Quote:Obama didn't ask for anything in return from Russia

He most certainly did. He pretty much asked them to 'be quiet during my campaign'. If he did not have that self-interest action at heart, then his statement that he can be much more flexible after it is doing nothing but giving up a vast swath for literally nothing.

He asked an absolute resolute foe of the United States to pipe down, to be nice, to play nice; because otherwise US voters would note that Romney was correct. Which he was, mind you. The payback was expressly mentioned in that same conversation --- a better field for Russia in ongoing talks.

Obama was overheard asking for time — “particularly with missile defense” — until he is in a better position politically to resolve such issues.

“I understand your message about space,” replied Medvedev, who would hand over the presidency to Putin in May.

I mean, the utter self-interest in those comments from Obama is absolutely there. And there is the spectre of a quid pro quo in light of that political self-interest. Help me win the election is what Obama sold to the Russians, because AFTER the elections he could give the Russians a deal worth a packet more that he could before. Seems absolutely obvious in the self-dealing and in the trading of an official action to help him politically.

I would denote giving an erstwhile opponent a better position 'particularly with respect to missile defense [talks]' in return for 'shutting the f up until after the elections' is absolutely on par with the types of actions you denote above.

And that is why I agree with the Dershowitz viewpoint --- to make the Trump actions impeachable almost by definition make those actions by Obama impeachable. This is entirely the result of the theory espoused by the House Impeachment. You may not like it, but it is absolutely there.
(This post was last modified: 02-04-2020 07:02 PM by tanqtonic.)
02-04-2020 06:59 PM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #11024
RE: Trump Administration
It is amazing, there is never any 'smoke' on equivalent actions by Democrats;

and it is always absolutely and fundamentally never the same when the letter (D) is appended to a person with equivalent actions.

Pretty friggin' amazing...
02-04-2020 07:05 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #11025
RE: Trump Administration
(02-04-2020 07:05 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  It is amazing, there is never any 'smoke' on equivalent actions by Democrats;

and it is always absolutely and fundamentally never the same when the letter (D) is appended to a person with equivalent actions.

Pretty friggin' amazing...

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02-04-2020 07:09 PM
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Post: #11026
RE: Trump Administration
(02-04-2020 07:05 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  It is amazing, there is never any 'smoke' on equivalent actions by Democrats;

and it is always absolutely and fundamentally never the same when the letter (D) is appended to a person with equivalent actions.

Pretty friggin' amazing...

Democrat Double Standard
02-04-2020 07:09 PM
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Fountains of Wayne Graham Offline
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Post: #11027
RE: Trump Administration
02-04-2020 08:28 PM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #11028
RE: Trump Administration
At least the 2016 election is finally coming to a close.
02-04-2020 08:41 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #11029
RE: Trump Administration
(02-04-2020 08:41 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  At least the 2016 election is finally coming to a close.

You dreamer.
02-04-2020 09:22 PM
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mrbig Offline
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Post: #11030
RE: Trump Administration
(02-04-2020 06:57 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(02-04-2020 06:13 PM)mrbig Wrote:  
(02-04-2020 05:30 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I mean, if that is the tack you want to take, then Obama's plea to the Russian ambassador on the live mic in asking for time — “particularly with missile defense” — until he is in a better position politically to resolve such issues, then followed with the infamous "After my election I have more flexibility” is *also* an impeachable act.

What Obama said and what Trump did are totally different. Obama didn't ask for anything in return from Russia and he didn't offer anything in return to Russia. He just said he would be in a better place to discuss/negotiate after the election. He didn't withhold millions in aid or a state visit or anything else. With you being an attorney, not sure how you can compare them with a straight face.

He asked for time. In return he offered a better deal after the ELECTION than he could before the ELECTION.

Apparently he wanted to give concessions to Putin that would be a hard sell in the ELECTION. So asking to postpone them was in order to influence the ELECTION.

Funny, how something is always completely different if a Democrat does it.

How did the deal change? What concessions? Anything more you can provide beyond speculation?
(This post was last modified: 02-04-2020 09:50 PM by mrbig.)
02-04-2020 09:43 PM
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mrbig Offline
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Post: #11031
RE: Trump Administration
(02-04-2020 06:59 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
Quote:Obama didn't ask for anything in return from Russia

He most certainly did. He pretty much asked them to 'be quiet during my campaign'. If he did not have that self-interest action at heart, then his statement that he can be much more flexible after it is doing nothing but giving up a vast swath for literally nothing.

He asked an absolute resolute foe of the United States to pipe down, to be nice, to play nice; because otherwise US voters would note that Romney was correct. Which he was, mind you. The payback was expressly mentioned in that same conversation --- a better field for Russia in ongoing talks.

Obama was overheard asking for time — “particularly with missile defense” — until he is in a better position politically to resolve such issues.

“I understand your message about space,” replied Medvedev, who would hand over the presidency to Putin in May.

I mean, the utter self-interest in those comments from Obama is absolutely there. And there is the spectre of a quid pro quo in light of that political self-interest. Help me win the election is what Obama sold to the Russians, because AFTER the elections he could give the Russians a deal worth a packet more that he could before. Seems absolutely obvious in the self-dealing and in the trading of an official action to help him politically.

I would denote giving an erstwhile opponent a better position 'particularly with respect to missile defense [talks]' in return for 'shutting the f up until after the elections' is absolutely on par with the types of actions you denote above.

And that is why I agree with the Dershowitz viewpoint --- to make the Trump actions impeachable almost by definition make those actions by Obama impeachable. This is entirely the result of the theory espoused by the House Impeachment. You may not like it, but it is absolutely there.

What was the better position? Honest question.

From my read, Obama basically said "I don't want talks with you to influence the election, so let's table discussions and we can discuss if I'm re-elected." The obvious implication is that if he isn't re-elected, then the discussions need to go on with the next administration. Obama didn't give up anything or hold back anything of substance like Ukraine aid or a presidential visit.

If I'm wrong and Obama really gave up something or accepted some terms that were against the national interest of the USA, please let me know. I can't research everything!
02-04-2020 09:49 PM
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Post: #11032
RE: Trump Administration
(02-04-2020 09:43 PM)mrbig Wrote:  
(02-04-2020 06:57 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(02-04-2020 06:13 PM)mrbig Wrote:  
(02-04-2020 05:30 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I mean, if that is the tack you want to take, then Obama's plea to the Russian ambassador on the live mic in asking for time — “particularly with missile defense” — until he is in a better position politically to resolve such issues, then followed with the infamous "After my election I have more flexibility” is *also* an impeachable act.

What Obama said and what Trump did are totally different. Obama didn't ask for anything in return from Russia and he didn't offer anything in return to Russia. He just said he would be in a better place to discuss/negotiate after the election. He didn't withhold millions in aid or a state visit or anything else. With you being an attorney, not sure how you can compare them with a straight face.

He asked for time. In return he offered a better deal after the ELECTION than he could before the ELECTION.

Apparently he wanted to give concessions to Putin that would be a hard sell in the ELECTION. So asking to postpone them was in order to influence the ELECTION.

Funny, how something is always completely different if a Democrat does it.

How did the deal change? What concessions? Anything more you can provide beyond speculative blather?

Yes it was a deal. He traded flexibility in negotiations for time to help his election. A clear quid pro quo.

The concessions he was talking about when he said he could be more flexible.

More flexible in what? Yoga?

This intentional denseness is getting old. There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Here we have a true quid pro quo. Something for something, and it was in furtherance of his election.

But it was OK, since he is a Democrat. Go Team!!! Beat Other-team!!!! We're different!! We're better!!! Only the other-team commits fouls!!!!

Be fair, Big.
02-04-2020 10:01 PM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #11033
RE: Trump Administration
I think this video speaks enormously:



Could you imagine the uproar if Paul Ryan had overtly ripped up an Obama SOTU address?

Granted the SOTU is grand acting, but the petulant attitude by Pelosi was strangely in line and echoed the stony silence of the Democrats. I mean, did you see the jerks just sit there like rocks when Trump noted the unemployment figures? I guess they dont like low unemployment. Pelosi's act just capped it off wonderfully.

I guess if Orange Man announced that he was going to undertake brand new measures to to fight against pedophilia and workplace rape the Democrats would start a directed effort to rehabilitate Roman Polanski, Harvey Weinstein, and Epstein as fine examples of why Trump is bad. Just amazing.
(This post was last modified: 02-05-2020 01:09 AM by tanqtonic.)
02-05-2020 12:51 AM
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Post: #11034
RE: Trump Administration
(02-05-2020 12:51 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I think this video speaks enormously:



Could you imagine the uproar if Paul Ryan had overtly ripped up an Obama SOTU address?

Granted the SOTU is grand acting, but the petulant attitude by Pelosi was strangely in line and echoed the stony silence of the Democrats. I mean, did you see the jerks just sit there like rocks when Trump noted the unemployment figures? I guess they dont like low unemployment. Pelosi's act just capped it off wonderfully.

I guess if Orange Man announced that he was going to undertake brand new measures to to fight against pedophilia and workplace rape the Democrats would start a directed effort to rehabilitate Roman Polanski, Harvey Weinstein, and Epstein as fine examples of why Trump is bad. Just amazing.

I don't listen to speeches, but I was flipping channels and watched 5-6 minutes early, when he was introducing the 100 year old Tuskegee Airman and awarding the scholarship to that girl. Pelosi had to know she was on camera. but spent her time reading, not listening, and when it came time to rise, she was always late - even for the Tuskegee Airman. The Resistance was very evident in shots of Schiff, Nadler, and Omar.

And then Big is puzzled that we don't just sprint to join those ranks. I consider many of the prominent members of the Democrats to be loathsome people, including but not limited to the ones named above. Why would I care to align myself with them?

In any case, Pelosi has only four more of these to sit through. Always a possibility she could learn some manners.
(This post was last modified: 02-05-2020 01:42 AM by OptimisticOwl.)
02-05-2020 01:41 AM
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Post: #11035
RE: Trump Administration
With a mom dying of Parkinson’s last year and still very aware of what Rush did to Michael J. Fox, I felt the awarding of the Medal of Freedom was a joke. I would have given it to Ellie Schneider (the 2 year old born very preemie) or obviously one of the military members over him in a heartbeat.

I did predict to Owl #s that planting trees is the only nod to climate change Trump will ever make.

I think Pelosi (and most current democratic leaders) are doing a terrible job, but after a speech full of theatrics, I don’t think her meme was any different than the 80 minutes that came before it.
02-05-2020 06:45 AM
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Post: #11036
RE: Trump Administration
(02-05-2020 01:41 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(02-05-2020 12:51 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I think this video speaks enormously:



Could you imagine the uproar if Paul Ryan had overtly ripped up an Obama SOTU address?

Granted the SOTU is grand acting, but the petulant attitude by Pelosi was strangely in line and echoed the stony silence of the Democrats. I mean, did you see the jerks just sit there like rocks when Trump noted the unemployment figures? I guess they dont like low unemployment. Pelosi's act just capped it off wonderfully.

I guess if Orange Man announced that he was going to undertake brand new measures to to fight against pedophilia and workplace rape the Democrats would start a directed effort to rehabilitate Roman Polanski, Harvey Weinstein, and Epstein as fine examples of why Trump is bad. Just amazing.

I don't listen to speeches, but I was flipping channels and watched 5-6 minutes early, when he was introducing the 100 year old Tuskegee Airman and awarding the scholarship to that girl. Pelosi had to know she was on camera. but spent her time reading, not listening, and when it came time to rise, she was always late - even for the Tuskegee Airman. The Resistance was very evident in shots of Schiff, Nadler, and Omar.

And then Big is puzzled that we don't just sprint to join those ranks. I consider many of the prominent members of the Democrats to be loathsome people, including but not limited to the ones named above. Why would I care to align myself with them?

In any case, Pelosi has only four more of these to sit through. Always a possibility she could learn some manners.

Lest we forget how respectful and full of applause the Republicans were when Obama was POTUS and giving the SOTU...

Both sides grand stand and generally refuse to applaud when they think the POTUS is full of ****, regardless of how wonderful the line is. And we’ve seen plenty of rudeness and actions that were out of line get championed by the right. Short memory spans, huh?
02-05-2020 06:47 AM
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Post: #11037
RE: Trump Administration
(02-05-2020 06:45 AM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  With a mom dying of Parkinson’s last year and still very aware of what Rush did to Michael J. Fox, I felt the awarding of the Medal of Freedom was a joke. I would have given it to Ellie Schneider (the 2 year old born very preemie) or obviously one of the military members over him in a heartbeat.

I did predict to Owl #s that planting trees is the only nod to climate change Trump will ever make.

I think Pelosi (and most current democratic leaders) are doing a terrible job, but after a speech full of theatrics, I don’t think her meme was any different than the 80 minutes that came before it.

I gotta say, Trump does know how to put on a show.

It felt like we were watching a game show, with a surprise around every corner. Rush getting the Medal of Freedom, a deployed husband’s surprise reveal - I was waiting for who was gonna take home a brand new, 2020, Chevy Tahoe.
02-05-2020 06:50 AM
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Post: #11038
RE: Trump Administration
I did comment in the main Spin Room last night that I thought Trump's subdued delivery was sub-par, and they of course reacted like I just ran over their beloved pet dog on the street. Look, the speech was effectively crafted, and hit all the expected points, but Trump looked like he was just going through the motions. Maybe it was his plan (and done to exaggerate the Pelosi mannerisms), but we'll see soon enough if Trump's tired delivery was planned or a hint of things to come.

I think this NBC News opinion piece (published before the speech) hits the right response. The SOTU isn't as great as Trump says it is, but it's not as bad as Democrats say it is either.

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/st...cna1129921
02-05-2020 07:00 AM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #11039
RE: Trump Administration
(02-05-2020 06:47 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(02-05-2020 01:41 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(02-05-2020 12:51 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I think this video speaks enormously:



Could you imagine the uproar if Paul Ryan had overtly ripped up an Obama SOTU address?

Granted the SOTU is grand acting, but the petulant attitude by Pelosi was strangely in line and echoed the stony silence of the Democrats. I mean, did you see the jerks just sit there like rocks when Trump noted the unemployment figures? I guess they dont like low unemployment. Pelosi's act just capped it off wonderfully.

I guess if Orange Man announced that he was going to undertake brand new measures to to fight against pedophilia and workplace rape the Democrats would start a directed effort to rehabilitate Roman Polanski, Harvey Weinstein, and Epstein as fine examples of why Trump is bad. Just amazing.

I don't listen to speeches, but I was flipping channels and watched 5-6 minutes early, when he was introducing the 100 year old Tuskegee Airman and awarding the scholarship to that girl. Pelosi had to know she was on camera. but spent her time reading, not listening, and when it came time to rise, she was always late - even for the Tuskegee Airman. The Resistance was very evident in shots of Schiff, Nadler, and Omar.

And then Big is puzzled that we don't just sprint to join those ranks. I consider many of the prominent members of the Democrats to be loathsome people, including but not limited to the ones named above. Why would I care to align myself with them?

In any case, Pelosi has only four more of these to sit through. Always a possibility she could learn some manners.

Lest we forget how respectful and full of applause the Republicans were when Obama was POTUS and giving the SOTU...

Both sides grand stand and generally refuse to applaud when they think the POTUS is full of ****, regardless of how wonderful the line is. And we’ve seen plenty of rudeness and actions that were out of line get championed by the right. Short memory spans, huh?

Perhaps my memory span is going. I dont remember Paul Ryan ripping up a speech. Guess I will have to Google it.

And, I do remember the aforementioned behavior when the subject was something like Obamacare or another highly partisan subject. I guess the strength of the economy is now a partisan subject. Got it.

Thank you for the schooling both on Paul Ryan's actions and that now a good economy and low unemployment are highly charged political issues unworthy of a positive note.
(This post was last modified: 02-05-2020 10:03 AM by tanqtonic.)
02-05-2020 09:33 AM
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Post: #11040
RE: Trump Administration
Pelosi on ripping up Trump speech: “I tore it up. I was trying to find one page with truth on it. I couldn’t."

Hmmm. I assume from that ISIS never held Kayla Mueller as a captive. Nor was she murdered by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.
02-05-2020 10:01 AM
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