Those guys who have/need the ITINS - they didn't sneak across the border and apply for them. We are talking about the uneducated and unskilled manual workers who sneak across one way or another and are here illegally. Handing them papers saying they are not longer here illegally will not make them want to pay taxes.

Yeah, Tanq and I have tons on anecdoctal evidence. That's because we have lived the life, met the people. I think neither of you have much real world contact with them. Tanq and I are from border towns. I lived and worked in and with Mexico for decades. Like i said previously, I have known legal and illegal immigrants very closely for over 7 decades. I suspect your involvement is limited to locking your doors when you see them on the street corners.

Now, once again, I ask you guys how this would work. Details, guys. Not the usual liberal BS.

(10-26-2018 12:01 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(10-25-2018 04:10 PM)OldOwlNewHeel2 Wrote:  

(10-25-2018 03:36 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Yep. You proved it to me. 50 some odd years of experience shown to be wrong. 100% of illegals will give up 20 per cent of their take to get that badge. Got it.

Sorry Lad, this is just pretty much laughable. It is so utterly divorced from reality to be.... well.... laughable. Sorry.

Just to be fair: how many illegals have *you* had that conversation with? Can you count them on one hand?

Honestly, going back to a lot of pro bono work and the clinics in law school, I have had that conversation. More than once. Probably more than a hundred or so times. I can count on the fingers of one (maybe two) hand(s) the answer that you seemingly think is the real world.

The overhead of the taxation system and the tying of individuals by tracking those finances is an overhead that the vast, vast majority of undocumented workers will not trade. No ifs, ands, or buts on that.

Dont get me wrong -- I am not chastising it. Just a statement of what 'is' without any moralism or political point being impugned here.

If you dont believe me, volunteer to do something like CASA work and be in position (actually almost a requirement) to actually ask that question outside the walls of a posting board and theory. The answers you get might surprise you.

Where were you and OO when all of these misguided DACA registrants were signing up? Didn't they know how awesome life would be if they continued to just remain in the shadows? What about the 4.6 million people a year who file tax returns despite not having an SSN? Obviously they don't appreciate how good they have it. Why don't you guys get out there and spread the gospel?

Well, kids who came here as tykes and and have lived here all their lives, educated here, and bilingual, are a far cry from the third grade dropouts who only speak Spanish, many of whom intend to return to their homes at some future point.

Keep it apples to apples.

How many DACA kids are in that caravan heading north? ZERO.

The point is the DACA kids are aknots 700,000 examples of people willing to vote against their economic self interest as some have argued, in order to be granted legal status in the US.

It’s not about the merits of amnesty, strong borders, DACA, or whatever else you’re trying to make it about. This all started with the premise that the lure of untaxed income was too great.

How many full time workers applied for DACA Lad? Think about it.

20 per cent of zero is a small number. That 20 per cent of zero is the economic self-interest you are advocating. Easy bet on that one.

Still waiting to see/hear the sum total of undocumented workers that you two have dealt with. Still waiting to hear what your explanation is for my out of this world 'wild streak'.

Yes, I know in prog-land EVERYONE *wants* to step forward. Hate to tell you that isnt the case. Not by a longshot. But please keep clinging to that shard. I find it interesting (to state the least) that the two of you absolutely refuse to address any of the real world situations that have been proffered.

Glad to see you two guys have been scalded off that utter dumb*** 4.6 million number. Always pays to actually read and understand what you are putting forth and defending......

(10-26-2018 06:24 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(10-26-2018 12:01 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(10-25-2018 04:10 PM)OldOwlNewHeel2 Wrote:  

(10-25-2018 03:36 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Yep. You proved it to me. 50 some odd years of experience shown to be wrong. 100% of illegals will give up 20 per cent of their take to get that badge. Got it.

Sorry Lad, this is just pretty much laughable. It is so utterly divorced from reality to be.... well.... laughable. Sorry.

Just to be fair: how many illegals have *you* had that conversation with? Can you count them on one hand?

Honestly, going back to a lot of pro bono work and the clinics in law school, I have had that conversation. More than once. Probably more than a hundred or so times. I can count on the fingers of one (maybe two) hand(s) the answer that you seemingly think is the real world.

The overhead of the taxation system and the tying of individuals by tracking those finances is an overhead that the vast, vast majority of undocumented workers will not trade. No ifs, ands, or buts on that.

Dont get me wrong -- I am not chastising it. Just a statement of what 'is' without any moralism or political point being impugned here.

If you dont believe me, volunteer to do something like CASA work and be in position (actually almost a requirement) to actually ask that question outside the walls of a posting board and theory. The answers you get might surprise you.

Where were you and OO when all of these misguided DACA registrants were signing up? Didn't they know how awesome life would be if they continued to just remain in the shadows? What about the 4.6 million people a year who file tax returns despite not having an SSN? Obviously they don't appreciate how good they have it. Why don't you guys get out there and spread the gospel?

Well, kids who came here as tykes and and have lived here all their lives, educated here, and bilingual, are a far cry from the third grade dropouts who only speak Spanish, many of whom intend to return to their homes at some future point.

Keep it apples to apples.

How many DACA kids are in that caravan heading north? ZERO.

The point is the DACA kids are aknots 700,000 examples of people willing to vote against their economic self interest as some have argued, in order to be granted legal status in the US.

It’s not about the merits of amnesty, strong borders, DACA, or whatever else you’re trying to make it about. This all started with the premise that the lure of untaxed income was too great.

Actually, in nearly every case, being accepted as a legal/citizen is in the DACA kds' economic interest. They are wanting a future here, based on their past. HS and college education cannot be put to good use if they are in danger of not being able to get those jobs as engineers or to go med school because of their legal status.

Not the same at all with the people who came up from southern mexico and waded the river behind my office. No doctors or engineers there. Mostly ill educated rural laborers speaking no English and possessing no skills. Those people are here to make $10/hour, and they want it all.

One thing you keep hearing from the interviews of the young men in the caravan is that they have no choice. DACA kids have choices, they just want to be free to exercise them.

It's like trying to compare HS grads in Middlebury, Mass., with their Harvard and Yale acceptances, to elementary school dropouts in the mountains of Appalachia. You bet they have different economic interests and different viewpoints on what they want.

Handing legal papers to a third grad dropout with no skills is not going to make him a DACA kid.

I am still waiting to hear the details of how you would go about "legalizing", other than just saying Abracadabra, you're legal. I have endorsed guest worker status for people like this. That would make them legal. But to keep that status, they would have to present evidence of filing a 1040 and paying any taxes due under the law. NOT a voluntary act on their part, any more than it is for you or me. LAW. And if they don't file or file fraudulently, revoke the GW staus and deport. Make the illegal again. Just like now.

Also, I, like Tanq, would like to hear about your personal anecdotal experiences with illegals. I have known them as friends, coworkers, and see the human side, because I know and have known them as individuals. I tend to think you and OONH call the cops if an illegal dares to come into your whitebread communities. I think you have little or no personal experience with illegals or border issues and want none. I think y'all must be stuck with the MSNBC version of border problems, rather than having seen them for yourself, as Tanq and I have. Why else would you refuse his question? Why else would you take the opinion of wealthy people in New York over the opinions of those with actual experience?

(10-26-2018 07:26 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  How many full time workers applied for DACA Lad? Think about it.

20 per cent of zero is a small number. That 20 per cent of zero is the economic self-interest you are advocating. Easy bet on that one.

Still waiting to see/hear the sum total of undocumented workers that you two have dealt with. Still waiting to hear what your explanation is for my out of this world 'wild streak'.

Yes, I know in prog-land EVERYONE *wants* to step forward. Hate to tell you that isnt the case. Not by a longshot. But please keep clinging to that shard. I find it interesting (to state the least) that the two of you absolutely refuse to address any of the real world situations that have been proffered.

Glad to see you two guys have been scalded off that utter dumb*** 4.6 million number. Always pays to actually read and understand what you are putting forth and defending......

Does it matter?

It's still 700,000 data points that argue that, given a legal alternative, illegal immigrants in the US are, in essence, willing to subject themselves to future federal income taxes in exchange for legal status.

The reason I'm not addressing your anecdotal evidence is that it is just that, an anecdote. That's one of the most common fallacies out there. That's not to say that your experiences aren't valuable or meaningful, but it does mean that you're likely overvaluing them in this discussion.

And to the ITIN comment, those are available to both legal and illegal workers in the US - and since the information can legally not be shared with DHS, illegal immigrants will obtain an ITIN and pay taxes with the hope that it will be used in their future immigration case. This is so frequently used by illegal immigrants that there is a whole section of the National Immigration Law Center web page dedicated to it: https://www.nilc.org/issues/taxes/itinfaq/

I'm not arguing that all illegal immigrants, if granted amnesty, would apply for it. I'm simply refuting the idea that most of them would not because they don't want to pay federal income taxes.

So when the anecdotal evidence is that hard hearted ICE workers are ripping children from their mothers, THAT anecdotal evidence is good enough for you? It is only anecdotal evidence from people who actually have decades of experience that you will not accept?

Partisan.

So WHAT IS YOUR PLAN! (Yes, I am yelling - tired of asking, tired of the evasion)

I wonder, if we eliminated the IRS, all tax penalties, and made it all voluntary, would anybody other than the illegals (and Lad) pay taxes?

(10-26-2018 09:51 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(10-26-2018 07:26 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  How many full time workers applied for DACA Lad? Think about it.

20 per cent of zero is a small number. That 20 per cent of zero is the economic self-interest you are advocating. Easy bet on that one.

Still waiting to see/hear the sum total of undocumented workers that you two have dealt with. Still waiting to hear what your explanation is for my out of this world 'wild streak'.

Yes, I know in prog-land EVERYONE *wants* to step forward. Hate to tell you that isnt the case. Not by a longshot. But please keep clinging to that shard. I find it interesting (to state the least) that the two of you absolutely refuse to address any of the real world situations that have been proffered.

Glad to see you two guys have been scalded off that utter dumb*** 4.6 million number. Always pays to actually read and understand what you are putting forth and defending......

Does it matter?

It's still 700,000 data points that argue that, given a legal alternative, illegal immigrants in the US are, in essence, willing to subject themselves to future federal income taxes in exchange for legal status.

How much income did that 700k forego for that designation. A big fat fing zero. Again you overlook that funny thing.

Quote:The reason I'm not addressing your anecdotal evidence is that it is just that, an anecdote. That's one of the most common fallacies out there. That's not to say that your experiences aren't valuable or meaningful, but it does mean that you're likely overvaluing them in this discussion.

A hundred or so anecdotes in a row. But overlook that why dont you.

I am beginning to wonder who is really 'sticking their head in the sand' here.

Quote:And to the ITIN comment, those are available to both legal and illegal workers in the US - and since the information can legally not be shared with DHS, illegal immigrants will obtain an ITIN and pay taxes with the hope that it will be used in their future immigration case. This is so frequently used by illegal immigrants that there is a whole section of the National Immigration Law Center web page dedicated to it: https://www.nilc.org/issues/taxes/itinfaq/

Ive thrown out the only numbers on this. But yeah, why dont you fing overlook those as anecdotes as well.

It is "so frequently used" --- got it. How many Lad? Tell me. Put some fing numbers out there. Or wave your hands and chant the mantra 'so frequently'.

To be blunt Lad, Im not the dumb*** that went all in on the 4.6 million number. You jumped in and whole heartedly claimed I was 'sticking my head in the sand' on that stupid as **** number before I refuted that and backed it up with reasons and numbers. So stop waving your hands 'magically' and give us something more than 'so frequently'.

Great. There is a webpage. Woop de doo. That isnt the question. Ive stated hard numbers on backing out a crapton of people from the 4.6 million (probably the vast majority of them), so your evidence to the contrary is a web page that is just simply -- there. Wow, you must be one masterful godlike intuition to derive that ITINs are 'so frequently used' based on the existence of a webpage. Amazing you can ferret out those numbers from that existence.

Quote:I'm not arguing that all illegal immigrants, if granted amnesty, would apply for it. I'm simply refuting the idea that most of them would not because they don't want to pay federal income taxes.

Again with no fing numbers aside from 'so frequently'. And, funnily, with no other issues to back up the 'most'. No first hand experiences, no numbers aside from a 'so frequently', and not even an attempt to quantify the numbers of ITINs that are issued for the the undocumented, unlike the what has been put forward for the investor class and the visa class.

So *what* exactly do you base your "most" statement on aside from your other uncorroborated by any means whatsoever statement of 'so frequently'? Or are you just waving your arms furiously here?

I guess that one group has a *web section* makes it ipso facto a 'crucial and widely used thing, probably *most* immigrants'. Does that sound as stupid to you as it does to me? If that is the standard, I guess if I find a wep page on people that like to boff trees that makes it ipso facto that most arborists use that resource to get information to boff trees? Man, I love these standards you come up with to claim stentorially that *most* immigrants do this...... Good god are you that frigging divorced from reality?

At least I can claim that most immigrants that I have directly dealt with dont. You cant even stand on that limited perspective.

(10-26-2018 10:22 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  So when the anecdotal evidence is that hard hearted ICE workers are ripping children from their mothers, THAT anecdotal evidence is good enough for you? It is only anecdotal evidence from people who actually have decades of experience that you will not accept?

Partisan.

So WHAT IS YOUR PLAN! (Yes, I am yelling - tired of asking, tired of the evasion)

Lad heartily accepted Casey Ford's anecdotal (and completely uncorroborated) statements of her being assaulted as well.

(10-26-2018 09:28 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(10-26-2018 06:24 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(10-26-2018 12:01 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(10-25-2018 04:10 PM)OldOwlNewHeel2 Wrote:  

(10-25-2018 03:36 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Yep. You proved it to me. 50 some odd years of experience shown to be wrong. 100% of illegals will give up 20 per cent of their take to get that badge. Got it.

Sorry Lad, this is just pretty much laughable. It is so utterly divorced from reality to be.... well.... laughable. Sorry.

Just to be fair: how many illegals have *you* had that conversation with? Can you count them on one hand?

Honestly, going back to a lot of pro bono work and the clinics in law school, I have had that conversation. More than once. Probably more than a hundred or so times. I can count on the fingers of one (maybe two) hand(s) the answer that you seemingly think is the real world.

The overhead of the taxation system and the tying of individuals by tracking those finances is an overhead that the vast, vast majority of undocumented workers will not trade. No ifs, ands, or buts on that.

Dont get me wrong -- I am not chastising it. Just a statement of what 'is' without any moralism or political point being impugned here.

If you dont believe me, volunteer to do something like CASA work and be in position (actually almost a requirement) to actually ask that question outside the walls of a posting board and theory. The answers you get might surprise you.

Where were you and OO when all of these misguided DACA registrants were signing up? Didn't they know how awesome life would be if they continued to just remain in the shadows? What about the 4.6 million people a year who file tax returns despite not having an SSN? Obviously they don't appreciate how good they have it. Why don't you guys get out there and spread the gospel?

Well, kids who came here as tykes and and have lived here all their lives, educated here, and bilingual, are a far cry from the third grade dropouts who only speak Spanish, many of whom intend to return to their homes at some future point.

Keep it apples to apples.

How many DACA kids are in that caravan heading north? ZERO.

The point is the DACA kids are aknots 700,000 examples of people willing to vote against their economic self interest as some have argued, in order to be granted legal status in the US.

It’s not about the merits of amnesty, strong borders, DACA, or whatever else you’re trying to make it about. This all started with the premise that the lure of untaxed income was too great.

Actually, in nearly every case, being accepted as a legal/citizen is in the DACA kds' economic interest. They are wanting a future here, based on their past. HS and college education cannot be put to good use if they are in danger of not being able to get those jobs as engineers or to go med school because of their legal status.

Not the same at all with the people who came up from southern mexico and waded the river behind my office. No doctors or engineers there. Mostly ill educated rural laborers speaking no English and possessing no skills. Those people are here to make $10/hour, and they want it all.

One thing you keep hearing from the interviews of the young men in the caravan is that they have no choice. DACA kids have choices, they just want to be free to exercise them.

It's like trying to compare HS grads in Middlebury, Mass., with their Harvard and Yale acceptances, to elementary school dropouts in the mountains of Appalachia. You bet they have different economic interests and different viewpoints on what they want.

Handing legal papers to a third grad dropout with no skills is not going to make him a DACA kid.

I am still waiting to hear the details of how you would go about "legalizing", other than just saying Abracadabra, you're legal. I have endorsed guest worker status for people like this. That would make them legal. But to keep that status, they would have to present evidence of filing a 1040 and paying any taxes due under the law. NOT a voluntary act on their part, any more than it is for you or me. LAW. And if they don't file or file fraudulently, revoke the GW staus and deport. Make the illegal again. Just like now.

Also, I, like Tanq, would like to hear about your personal anecdotal experiences with illegals. I have known them as friends, coworkers, and see the human side, because I know and have known them as individuals. I tend to think you and OONH call the cops if an illegal dares to come into your whitebread communities. I think you have little or no personal experience with illegals or border issues and want none. I think y'all must be stuck with the MSNBC version of border problems, rather than having seen them for yourself, as Tanq and I have. Why else would you refuse his question? Why else would you take the opinion of wealthy people in New York over the opinions of those with actual experience?

Because I can show you a website that mentions the subject. Ergo that means most people in the group do the thing mentioned on the website. Ergo people wo dont think this have their heads stuck in the sand.

(10-26-2018 10:35 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I am beginning to wonder who is really 'sticking their head in the sand' here.

pretty obvious to me, it s the people with no plan and no personal experience.

Arrest made in the bombings.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/mai...bs-n924856

(10-26-2018 12:25 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  Arrest made in the bombings.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/mai...bs-n924856

Sick and twisted individual. Glad they were able to apprehend him quickly - I shudder to think what would have happened if one of those explosives had detonated in a mail handling facility.

There is a photo being shown by news organizations as the van Cesar drove around and that law enforcement seized. It's, um, interesting and spirited to say the least:

What types of stickers did James T. Hodgkinson have around?

Funny that you didnt highlight that on June 14, 2017, and feel the absolute urge and necessity to to do it in this instance.

Thought you were a tad better than that Lad. Apparently not based on this previous post.

On a related note, how do you feel that Trump specifically said that the acts were gross and reprehensible, and that civility needs to come back to the fore? How do you feel about Pelosi and Schumer telling him to essentially stuff it?

(10-26-2018 02:55 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  What types of stickers did James T. Hodgkinson have around?

Funny that you didnt highlight that on June 14, 2017, and feel the absolute urge and necessity to to do it in this instance.

Thought you were a tad better than that Lad. Apparently not based on this previous post.

On a related note, how do you feel that Trump specifically said that the acts were gross and reprehensible, and that civility needs to come back to the fore? How do you feel about Pelosi and Schumer telling him to essentially stuff it?

Crazy will find an excuse to be crazy.

CNN headline re Hodgkinson: Bernie Sanders Supporter; Strongly Anti-Trump

Pelosi and Schumer - agree, lame response, feeds the beast/cycle. At this point in the election cycle, they ought to be messaging so independents are comfortable with voting D.

"Top Soccer Recruits for Trump" sorta jumps out at you.

I thought this was a great piece by Jonah Goldberg earlier today:

Logic of the Vendetta Now Guides Our Politics

I had specifically not called out about 5 or 6 *actual* incidents in the last two or three weeks, not of 'bad boy' behavior like screaming at restaurants, but of actual physical attacks on Republican candidates. Didnt think it really constructive. Didnt think it right given the atmosphere to launch those incendiary comments abut incendiary issues.

I found Lad's emphasis, given that, in utterly poor taste, to be blunt.

(10-26-2018 02:55 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  What types of stickers did James T. Hodgkinson have around?

Funny that you didnt highlight that on June 14, 2017, and feel the absolute urge and necessity to to do it in this instance.

Thought you were a tad better than that Lad. Apparently not based on this previous post.

On a related note, how do you feel that Trump specifically said that the acts were gross and reprehensible, and that civility needs to come back to the fore? How do you feel about Pelosi and Schumer telling him to essentially stuff it?

Well, for starters I didn’t say anything about politics. I was talking about how crazy his van was. I specifically wasn’t trying to talk about his personal politics.

(10-26-2018 03:31 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I thought this was a great piece by Jonah Goldberg earlier today:

Logic of the Vendetta Now Guides Our Politics

I had specifically not called out about 5 or 6 *actual* incidents in the last two or three weeks, not of 'bad boy' behavior like screaming at restaurants, but of actual physical attacks on Republican candidates. Didnt think it really constructive. Didnt think it right given the atmosphere to launch those incendiary comments abut incendiary issues.

I found Lad's emphasis, given that, in utterly poor taste, to be blunt.

Yeah, please explicitly tell me what words I said that were in poor taste. Please.

For guy who is so friggin' in tune with 'optics' on how anything happens with a person on the right, you sure are blind.

One could easily take your amazingly fast trigger on making sure the asshat's political affiliations are highlighted are in rather poor taste -- especially for one who continuously complains about loudmouths and optics. Just saying.....

Take it for whatever you find worthwhile.