nate jonesacc Wrote:And reading The Confessions doesn't even feel like you're reading... it feels like a conscious mind, thinking... it is very easy to think you are writing the book as you read it.

I thought the same thing about reading Kierkegaard for the first time.

KlutzDio I Wrote:

nate jonesacc Wrote:And reading The Confessions doesn't even feel like you're reading... it feels like a conscious mind, thinking... it is very easy to think you are writing the book as you read it.

I thought the same thing about reading Kierkegaard for the first time.

I agree much more with Augustine than Kierkegaard, but Kierkegaard is just as enjoyable to read... Great stuff... the both of them.

Which book did you first read of Kierkegaard's?

[quote="KlutzDio I"]T-Monay, you don't know what you are talking about. The early Christian church was far more communistic than capitalist. In fact, and this is documented history, the Catholic Church tweaked their doctrines circa 1400 to make capitalism more consistent with the church's ideology. Around 1500, many tried to split away from the Church in protest and some succeeded, i.e. Martin Luther.

You don't know anything about Vietnam, or economic philosophies, but you want to comment on them all day.

First of all, freedom of religion has nothing to do with an economic system

What a crock. Read the Epistles... Paul wasn't allowed to be a Christian... was he? Hell yes... he was persecuted many times for it, too. He was much closer to Christ than any Capitalist Consumer-driven-I-go-to-Church-on-Sunday Christian.

The party before the individual? Sound familiar? Sounds like something Jesus might say... The Church before the individual.

nate jonesacc Wrote:What a crock. Read the Epistles... Paul wasn't allowed to be a Christian... was he? Hell yes... he was persecuted many times for it, too. He was much closer to Christ than any Capitalist Consumer-driven-I-go-to-Church-on-Sunday Christian.

The party before the individual? Sound familiar? Sounds like something Jesus might say... The Church before the individual.

Let me rephrase it then for people like you Nate.

If you aren't Christian because the communist government/economy doesn't allow religion, then you are even farther from Christianity than someone who is capitalistic and is Christian.

Of course Nate, your party doesn't believe in "reeducation camps" like the other Party. The "Party before individual" was to explain how there isn't Christianity in communist societies because it gets in the way of the Party's teachings.

[quote="T-Monay820"] [quote="KlutzDio I"]T-Monay, you don't know what you are talking about. The early Christian church was far more communistic than capitalist. In fact, and this is documented history, the Catholic Church tweaked their doctrines circa 1400 to make capitalism more consistent with the church's ideology. Around 1500, many tried to split away from the Church in protest and some succeeded, i.e. Martin Luther.

You don't know anything about Vietnam, or economic philosophies, but you want to comment on them all day.

First of all, freedom of religion has nothing to do with an economic system

T-Monay820 Wrote:Of course Nate, your party doesn't believe in "reeducation camps" like the other Party. The "Party before individual" was to explain how there isn't Christianity in communist societies because it gets in the way of the Party's teachings.

T-Monay, let me spell this out for you quite clearly.

In all "communist" countries there have been over 100 Christian denominations operating in all of them, past and present.

In the Soviet Union, more than 130 Christian denominations boasted over 165 million members.

Go to Cuba and see how many show up for Mass on Sunday!

Lastly, you have a skewed definition of communism. Cuba is labelled a "communist" country but their economy is far from communism (because the state profits). The USSR did not have a communist economy because, like Cuba, the Soviet state was legally allowed to profit.

Would you please buy and read The Communist Manifesto as well as Das Kapital. Buy and read the CliffNotes along with the books then come back here and tell us about communism!

T-Monay just takes what he has heard from other conservatives and runs with them. Absolutely no original thought involved, not backed with facts... He's just another robot for the conservative combine.

Yeah, well he could read the Communist Manifesto in about 3 hours and then he could actually keep up with the conversation simply by understanding what communism is and how certain nations have practiced "communism" which is entirely contradictory to Marx's ideas.

I first read the book in the 10th grade. It was assigned by our English teacher (and this was at the hottest points of the Cold War). At the time, I was thoroughly angry that I had to read a book I knew I disagreed with. Yet, as I read it, I found myself knodding and admiring Marx's prose. Once I got out of high school and started working, Marx's work became much more significant to me (and clearer). My English teacher later countered the Manifesto with Orwell's Animal Farm. I now see why she did that, to illustrate that Marx and Engels had good ideas but its absolutely impossible to carry any of them out simply because or moral character will get in the way, i.e. greediness.

Later in high school, I had a very good history teacher (and he inspired me to major in history) who pointed out that the Soviet Union operates in more capitalist manners than communist. He also showed us evidence of communist societies that preceeded Christ. In doing that he exposed us to philosophy, which I also studied in college.

I will never understand why some people suppose that Christ's teachings foreshadowed Marxism, or any other form of Utopia.

Christ did no such thing, and he would be astounded to find it said that his teachings concerned social and economic theory. As he was fond to point out, his teaching had nothing to do with this world, which is passing away. As he told Pilate, his kingdom was not of this world. As he told one person, who demanded that he settle a dispute over an inheritance, "who set me up as your judge"?

Christ's teachings trancend all this we have here, and indeed, he advised his followers to pay no heed to this world. His teaching concerning mercy to others and charity did not foreshadow government enforced "equality". His teachings were moral ones, arising from the moral law that the Jews believed were handed down by God. As we all know, there has yet to be a Marxist government yet that would know anything of morality or God, personal or public. That's all opium.

Well, Wry, if this world is meaningless, then that would make us all rather equally meaningless, right?

The R. Lee Ermey guy in Full Metal Jacket:
"...there is no racial bigotry in my beloved Corps because in my eyes you are all equally worthless..."

No, I agree that Christ's teachings were purely related to ethics, as were Muhammed's and Siddharta Gautama's (and a few other "holymen" since). Marx's ideas are related to economics.

I really don't see how anyone here said that Christ and Marx's teachings are related (perhaps I didn't read a post). I don't understand why you commented about Christ foreshadowing Marx, did I miss something?
My comments about communist ideals preceeding Marx began in ancient Greece, circa 500 b.c.e. Marx didn't really do anything new in the Manifesto, he just updated ancient economic ideals for an industrial world.

Lastly, Wry, if you would or if you have time, please include a list of all Marxist governments past and present because I don't think there have been any in the common era.

Quote:T-Monay, you need to invest in a good book on Soviet history (I can give you some titles if you are interested)

I'll take up the offer. I need things for my Christimas wish list anyways. Throw in some communist (more general like cuba or Latin America) history while your at it. I'm running out of books to read during my free time. Make sure they're good books.

T-Monay820 Wrote:

Quote:T-Monay, you need to invest in a good book on Soviet history (I can give you some titles if you are interested)

I'll take up the offer. I need things for my Christimas wish list anyways. Throw in some communist (more general like cuba or Latin America) history while your at it. I'm running out of books to read during my free time. Make sure they're good books.

I'll email my friend who teaches Latin American culture at Ole Miss. He'll know what to read regarding Cuba, but that's just not my forte. I specialized in European and Southern U.S. history.

On the USSR, I suggest, first of all, the American perspective.
10 Days that Shook The World by John Reed, Oxford U. Press, 1921.
this is a great primary source written by one of the premiere U.S. journalists of all-time. He was actually in Russia as the Bolsheviks siezed power in 1917. He stayed with them through it all, the provisional government and their dallying with capitalism under Lenin, as well as the Kronstadt Rebellion. This is a great read. After reading the book, watch the movie Reds starring Warren Beatty (the movie generally follows Reed's book).

After you see the American perspective, try this book written by a Soviet writer:
Russia After the War, Hopes, Illusions, Disappointments, 1945-1957 by Elena Zubkova.
After WW2, many soviet citizens thought that Stalin would relinquish his tight-fisted grip over the country and its people. They expected some concessions but they got more imprisonment, more murder and more corruption. This is a great book translated by Hugh Ragsdale.

After that, you might want to read a first-hand account of the Soviet planned economy from 1931-1941. Try this one:
Bitter Waters by Andreev Gennady Khomiakov.
Like the Reed book this is a primary source. It was written by an "accountant" with several Soviet manufacturing companies. He talks about production vis-a-vis the planned economy. He illlustrates exaclty how unrealistic the planned economy was. He also talks about fudging numbers and the corruption surrounding the USSR's manufacturing sector, because if they did not produce as per the plan determined by the politboro, then those factory reps would be sent to the Gulag.
The book is funny and easy to read. It ends with an expert account of Nazis standing at the gates of Moscow. The greatest line is when Khomiakov meets a friend in a Moscow tram station while the Nazis are shelling the city.
Khomiakov, "Petros, where are you going. Where's the organization. We need to find the militia....to fight"
Petros, "Fight? What do you mean Andreev? Who's going to defend this [the Soviet state]?"

That should keep you busy and I may update this after a day or so when my friend gets back with me on LA.

T-Monay:

Here's a site I just found that provides links to many of the documents and reading material I had to peruse for several college classes.

<a href='http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/chrono3.html' target='_blank'>http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russia...an/chrono3.html</a>

My comments regarding Christianity foreshadowing communism/Marxism came about because of the comments somewhere up there to the effect that the early Christian Churches were "communistic", and that later generations made adjustments in Christian doctrine to accomodate capitalism,as well as other posts suggesting a connection between the two.

There may have been a tendency toward communalism in the early church (I use that to distinguish it from "communism"), but it is anachronistic as well as false to think that notions of communalism were similar to communism.

Communism and capitalism are branches of materialism. Materialism, to the extent that it becomes an end of itself, or seen as the saviour of the human race, is a form of idolatry.

It may be that the Communists permitted churches in some places to remain open. But it came at a price. Church doctrines had to be approved by the State. In any event, church properties were simply appropriated. In China, they were suppressed.

Communism and Marxism were ever essentially atheistic, always hostile to faith. That accomodations may have been made upon terms is hardly the same thing as acceptance.

Dio, I do not know of a single "Marxist" State. I know of many totalitarian States that have claimed to be "Marxist" The Soviet Union, China, North Korea, these might well have been simple dictatorships. All they have been is dictatorial government gussied up with a profoundly flawed theory of economics and human nature. They have been Satan's version of Paradise.

KlutzDio I Wrote:I'll email my friend who teaches Latin American culture at Ole Miss. He'll know what to read regarding Cuba, but that's just not my forte. I specialized in European and Southern U.S. history.

On the USSR, I suggest, first of all, the American perspective.
10 Days that Shook The World by John Reed, Oxford U. Press, 1921.
this is a great primary source written by one of the premiere U.S. journalists of all-time. He was actually in Russia as the Bolsheviks siezed power in 1917. He stayed with them through it all, the provisional government and their dallying with capitalism under Lenin, as well as the Kronstadt Rebellion. This is a great read. After reading the book, watch the movie Reds starring Warren Beatty (the movie generally follows Reed's book).

After you see the American perspective, try this book written by a Soviet writer:
Russia After the War, Hopes, Illusions, Disappointments, 1945-1957 by Elena Zubkova.
After WW2, many soviet citizens thought that Stalin would relinquish his tight-fisted grip over the country and its people. They expected some concessions but they got more imprisonment, more murder and more corruption. This is a great book translated by Hugh Ragsdale.

After that, you might want to read a first-hand account of the Soviet planned economy from 1931-1941. Try this one:
Bitter Waters by Andreev Gennady Khomiakov.
Like the Reed book this is a primary source. It was written by an "accountant" with several Soviet manufacturing companies. He talks about production vis-a-vis the planned economy. He illlustrates exaclty how unrealistic the planned economy was. He also talks about fudging numbers and the corruption surrounding the USSR's manufacturing sector, because if they did not produce as per the plan determined by the politboro, then those factory reps would be sent to the Gulag.
The book is funny and easy to read. It ends with an expert account of Nazis standing at the gates of Moscow. The greatest line is when Khomiakov meets a friend in a Moscow tram station while the Nazis are shelling the city.
Khomiakov, "Petros, where are you going. Where's the organization. We need to find the militia....to fight"
Petros, "Fight? What do you mean Andreev? Who's going to defend this [the Soviet state]?"

That should keep you busy and I may update this after a day or so when my friend gets back with me on LA.

Make it known that just because I hate communism, socialism, and dictators does not mean I am unwilling to read and learn more about them. Can never stop learning.

Thanks for the read.

Wry, thanks for clarifying some term usage here. Communalistic is perhaps a better explanation of the early Church and how their parishoners lived and worked. It could also explain some of the various ascetics who helped market Christianity in the early years, i.e. missions and monks.

Communism is an economic philosophy that deals with the means of production and class struggle. Communism is much more modern than agrarian, commune-style living that preceeded all economic ideas, especially capitalism.

The Church did, however, make its ideology much more consistent with capitalism around the time of the Renaissance. Previously, the Church was quite hostile toward the economic practice of capitalism, and this is documented and most historians (even Church historians) agree on this. Some of the early problems dealt with international trade and commerce, i.e. the slave trade.

Regardless of state controls on religion in "marxist" states, the people (from a sociological standpoint) were generally very religious, very faithful. Of course the Party wanted people to give up religion and its practices but the Party member, in most of these states, constituted a small minority of the overall population. Also, from a sociological standpoint, most Soviets in that "marxist" state simply ignored much of what the Party dictated. This is documented as well.


The whole discussion on religion and "marxist" states came about when somebody said that capitalism is more in-step with Christianity. Me and some others challenged that assertion by pointing out that communal life was a focal point of the early Christian Church (and you can't really say the early Christians were Catholics although the Catholics would claim them. I prefer to call early Christians just that, early Christians, simply because it took about 800-900 years after Christ for Catholicism to fully develop in Europe). We also challenged the assertion because core Christian beliefs are rather contradictory with capitalist ideology. That is, if one were to take Christ's ethical teachings and then put those next to capitalist ideology anyone could discern some friction between the two. And I think we touched on this earlier, that capitalism is economics and ethics is outside the realm of the business world, or....uh something like that.

On a final note, perhaps you should re-read the Manifesto because while Marx was hostile to organized religion, one cannot find much in the book about faith and its role among humanity. One must ask why Marx was hostile toward organized religion and any study on the state of the Church of England or the Lutheran Church during Marx's lifestyle, one could simply realize that those organizations deserved criticism. The rank-and-file Christian of the era also deserved criticism and that is where Marx (and others) delivered.

T-Monay820 Wrote:

nate jonesacc Wrote:And capitalism is the furthest economic system from Christianity... by far.

Actually it would be communism, because in capitalism, at least you can be a Christian. In communism, you get sent to "reeducation camps" to clear your mind of these human inventions so that you may better serve the Party.

Hate to spoil the parrot parade, Sparky, but the first Christians WERE communists, in the fundamental sense of the word.

How many admonitions in the bible talk about homosexuality?

And how many about usury?

See my point? :chair: