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RE: Is the expansion still an option for the ACC? - SouthernConfBoy - 12-17-2022 05:22 PM
(12-17-2022 05:04 PM)random asian guy Wrote:(12-17-2022 03:17 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:(12-15-2022 10:08 PM)SouthernConfBoy Wrote: The ACC could move to 20 and possibly pick up ND in full for football but only by adding a Pacific Wing with Washington, Oregon, Stanford, Cal, and Arizona State. That cuts the throat of Washington State and Oregon State and likely drives Utah, Arizona, Colorado to make a serious decision. I think those three plus Kansas would make a good addition to the SEC because I think some schools in the SEC can't emotionally operate on 6-6, 7-5, or even 8-4 seasons. Someone other than Vandy, South Carolina, and Mizzou need to be the huckleberry.
West side of the SEC becomes Arizona, Utah, Colorado, Oklahoma, and Texas.
The plains side of the SEC becomes Kansas, Mizzou, Arkansas, TAMU, and LSU.
Arizona, Colorado, Kansas, and Utah are better cultural fits overall within the SEC than the Pa, North Carolina, or Virginia schools.
The Pacific side of the ACC could be Washington, Oregon, Stanford, Cal, and ASU. The midwestern or river valley section could be ND, Pitt, Louisville, GT, and FSU.
Essentially you are getting four annual opponents and can use one of a dozen ways to devise how to schedule the 4-5 to 6 other conference games. You get four division champions to play it off.
This year the AC&P might have had Oregon, ND, WF, and Clemson while the SEC using the above would have gotten something like Utah, LSU, Tennessee, and Georgia. Of course, divisions are a lot like old conferences that had 7 to 8 members.
Adding those five PAC programs are the dream scenario for the ACC and ESPN. It would allow the media contract to be reset at a competitive rate. Unfortunately, Fox and the B1G would never let this occur.
I suspect the internal politics is a bigger obstacle. Certain ACC schools may not want the west coast expansion. This is where the leadership matters and I really hope Phillips have vision and leadership to deliver.
Internal Issue that is not disucessed in public Issue 1:
Schools that are so wealthy they can with a snap of the finger add $150,000,000 to the annual budget. This was always a problem with Texas with many of the core ACC schools. Stanford can be a budget buster if they decide to do so. Stanford also presents a certain type of challenge to Duke and UNC that are unaccustomed to facing. Cal's not a problem.
Internal Issue that is not discussed in Public Issue 2:
Schools with high profile boosters calling the shots:
This was also an issue with Texas and would be with Oregon.
Internal Issue threat is not discussed in public issue 3:
Unionism.
California, Oregon, Colorado, and Arizona are not right to work states. Only Washington and Utah are right to work - meaning no mandate to pay unions.
The labor issue is not really about athletes. It's about UNC's, Duke's, Wake's, and UVa's relationship between management and large swaths of non-unionized people in the medical support professions, student support professions, and up and down the procurement/research chain. The athletes are a visible edge that can cut open the issues.
Who sets the agenda and has the final say is the prerogative of the "father of the mill", "the plantation owner", the "first family", etc., etc. A paternalistic way of doing business where those down the line are often given the illusion of their opinions mattering when in fact a very small group at the top makes the decisions based on an idealization that the decision maker and the entity are one and the same.
It's like living under a Clan Chief or some Northern European Duke or Prince. Do what you are told and you will be taken care of - that's the bargain.
RE: Is the expansion still an option for the ACC? - XLance - 12-17-2022 06:17 PM
Enough!
There is no reason to associate with the west coast......none.
Too far, too expensive and no "fit".
RE: Is the expansion still an option for the ACC? - JRsec - 12-17-2022 06:26 PM
(12-17-2022 06:17 PM)XLance Wrote: Enough!
There is no reason to associate with the west coast......none.
Too far, too expensive and no "fit".
This attitude in 2010-1 is exactly why the ACC failed to keep pace. Now the options to keep up are more extreme. And from extreme (if passed by) the options will become dire. Whether we want it or not consolidation will continue and for many reasons outside of academia and outside of sports. These moves are about major demographic shifts, and major financial shifts which are in the offing.
If there's anything the past few years should teach us it is that there is no such thing as an institutional gestalt. To me, USC/UCLA to the Big 10 is even a bigger hello than OU/UT to the SEC. The latter were at least contiguous moves which reunited some old rivals. The former is a bucket of ice water in the face that we are moving into the twilight zone!
RE: Is the expansion still an option for the ACC? - Garrettabc - 12-17-2022 07:05 PM
I’m not interested in Pac schools. I doubt there is any interest for Pac schools to join the ACC. The best thing that they could do is to regroup and sign a GoR.
RE: Is the expansion still an option for the ACC? - Wahoowa84 - 12-17-2022 10:11 PM
(12-17-2022 06:17 PM)XLance Wrote: Enough!
There is no reason to associate with the west coast......none.
Too far, too expensive and no "fit".
The old foundations of a conference are gone. Regardless of the strategy, the best ACC brands (including UNC and FSU) may leave to join a higher revenue-generating conference. Regional cohesion is nostalgia that is preventing clear thinking. When Notre Dame was considering conference alignment, the “southern” SEC was engaged in the discussion with a “northern” blue blood.
College athletics is big business. Elite athletes can, and will, travel to compete at the highest level. If the ACC has an opportunity to upgrade its brand content, then it needs to take the risk…the best remaining PAC programs (especially Washington, Stanford and Oregon) are a clear upgrade for the ACC. Media companies need content and consolidating quality brands will provide the ACC with leverage and opportunity to grow payouts faster.
RE: Is the expansion still an option for the ACC? - esayem - 12-17-2022 10:51 PM
(12-17-2022 10:11 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:(12-17-2022 06:17 PM)XLance Wrote: Enough!
There is no reason to associate with the west coast......none.
Too far, too expensive and no "fit".
The old foundations of a conference are gone. Regardless of the strategy, the best ACC brands (including UNC and FSU) may leave to join a higher revenue-generating conference. Regional cohesion is nostalgia that is preventing clear thinking. When Notre Dame was considering conference alignment, the “southern” SEC was engaged in the discussion with a “northern” blue blood.
College athletics is big business. Elite athletes can, and will, travel to compete at the highest level. If the ACC has an opportunity to upgrade its brand content, then it needs to take the risk…the best remaining PAC programs (especially Washington, Stanford and Oregon) are a clear upgrade for the ACC. Media companies need content and consolidating quality brands will provide the ACC with leverage and opportunity to grow payouts faster.
That's why thinking outside of the box and incorporating the Pac schools in the ACCN, while having them remain a separate conference is the best idea. This is where adding SDSU and SMU makes sense as well.
I don't see how adding a few west coast schools into the current configuration is going to make everyone money.
RE: Is the expansion still an option for the ACC? - Garrettabc - 12-18-2022 07:00 AM
Add all 10 Pac schools and call it a day, just as long as FSU does not have to take their non-rev sports to the left coast.
RE: Is the expansion still an option for the ACC? - XLance - 12-18-2022 09:06 AM
(12-17-2022 10:11 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:(12-17-2022 06:17 PM)XLance Wrote: Enough!
There is no reason to associate with the west coast......none.
Too far, too expensive and no "fit".
The old foundations of a conference are gone. Regardless of the strategy, the best ACC brands (including UNC and FSU) may leave to join a higher revenue-generating conference. Regional cohesion is nostalgia that is preventing clear thinking. When Notre Dame was considering conference alignment, the “southern” SEC was engaged in the discussion with a “northern” blue blood.
College athletics is big business. Elite athletes can, and will, travel to compete at the highest level. If the ACC has an opportunity to upgrade its brand content, then it needs to take the risk…the best remaining PAC programs (especially Washington, Stanford and Oregon) are a clear upgrade for the ACC. Media companies need content and consolidating quality brands will provide the ACC with leverage and opportunity to grow payouts faster.
That's not really true of the SEC. They took their "natural territory" and just shifted a little to the left over time to incorporate the biggest contiguous market of the Big 8, the best football school from the Big 8 and the two largest market schools of the SWC. There is nothing the SEC added that didn't already touch the SEC.
Until the addition of USC and UCLA, the same could be said of the B1G (except they just shifted right with PSU, Rutgers and Maryland and attached Nebraska to Iowa to the left).
The ACC expanded north and south. Everything would touch with the addition of West Virginia or Cincinnati.
The B1G got greedy and decided to skip the contiguous aspect. Whether it works or not remains to be seen. The same is true of the disjointed expansion of the Big 12 (which was out of desperation). It is unsure that 12 team will ever get off the ground.
We'll see if the B1G experiment works, before deciding the ACC has to try it too.
RE: Is the expansion still an option for the ACC? - ArQ - 12-18-2022 10:37 PM
(12-18-2022 09:06 AM)XLance Wrote:(12-17-2022 10:11 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:(12-17-2022 06:17 PM)XLance Wrote: Enough!
There is no reason to associate with the west coast......none.
Too far, too expensive and no "fit".
The old foundations of a conference are gone. Regardless of the strategy, the best ACC brands (including UNC and FSU) may leave to join a higher revenue-generating conference. Regional cohesion is nostalgia that is preventing clear thinking. When Notre Dame was considering conference alignment, the “southern” SEC was engaged in the discussion with a “northern” blue blood.
College athletics is big business. Elite athletes can, and will, travel to compete at the highest level. If the ACC has an opportunity to upgrade its brand content, then it needs to take the risk…the best remaining PAC programs (especially Washington, Stanford and Oregon) are a clear upgrade for the ACC. Media companies need content and consolidating quality brands will provide the ACC with leverage and opportunity to grow payouts faster.
That's not really true of the SEC. They took their "natural territory" and just shifted a little to the left over time to incorporate the biggest contiguous market of the Big 8, the best football school from the Big 8 and the two largest market schools of the SWC. There is nothing the SEC added that didn't already touch the SEC.
Until the addition of USC and UCLA, the same could be said of the B1G (except they just shifted right with PSU, Rutgers and Maryland and attached Nebraska to Iowa to the left).
The ACC expanded north and south. Everything would touch with the addition of West Virginia or Cincinnati.
The B1G got greedy and decided to skip the contiguous aspect. Whether it works or not remains to be seen. The same is true of the disjointed expansion of the Big 12 (which was out of desperation). It is unsure that 12 team will ever get off the ground.
We'll see if the B1G experiment works, before deciding the ACC has to try it too.
But what can B1G do after SEC grabbed Texas and Oklahoma? B1G has to take UCLA and USC to balance the scales between these two conferences.
RE: Is the expansion still an option for the ACC? - Wahoowa84 - 12-19-2022 11:44 AM
(12-18-2022 09:06 AM)XLance Wrote:(12-17-2022 10:11 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:(12-17-2022 06:17 PM)XLance Wrote: Enough!
There is no reason to associate with the west coast......none.
Too far, too expensive and no "fit".
The old foundations of a conference are gone. Regardless of the strategy, the best ACC brands (including UNC and FSU) may leave to join a higher revenue-generating conference. Regional cohesion is nostalgia that is preventing clear thinking. When Notre Dame was considering conference alignment, the “southern” SEC was engaged in the discussion with a “northern” blue blood.
College athletics is big business. Elite athletes can, and will, travel to compete at the highest level. If the ACC has an opportunity to upgrade its brand content, then it needs to take the risk…the best remaining PAC programs (especially Washington, Stanford and Oregon) are a clear upgrade for the ACC. Media companies need content and consolidating quality brands will provide the ACC with leverage and opportunity to grow payouts faster.
That's not really true of the SEC. They took their "natural territory" and just shifted a little to the left over time to incorporate the biggest contiguous market of the Big 8, the best football school from the Big 8 and the two largest market schools of the SWC. There is nothing the SEC added that didn't already touch the SEC.
Until the addition of USC and UCLA, the same could be said of the B1G (except they just shifted right with PSU, Rutgers and Maryland and attached Nebraska to Iowa to the left).
The ACC expanded north and south. Everything would touch with the addition of West Virginia or Cincinnati.
The B1G got greedy and decided to skip the contiguous aspect. Whether it works or not remains to be seen. The same is true of the disjointed expansion of the Big 12 (which was out of desperation). It is unsure that 12 team will ever get off the ground.
We'll see if the B1G experiment works, before deciding the ACC has to try it too.
The SEC could afford to be more selective in expansion because they currently have a more desirable media product. In addition, I’m not convinced that Texas and Missouri were the SEC’s “natural territory”. I can see a future where Penn State, Ohio State, Notre Dame and/or other northern programs desire to join the SEC…and it’s not because the cultural similarities.
Jim Delaney took public jabs at the ACC’s expansion with Boston College by stressing the importance of growing conferences by selecting programs in contiguous states. But when the B1G was threatened (after Texas and OU announced their moves to the SEC), the rhetoric made way to the reality that having the LA market actually helped the B1G payouts and future prospects. The B1G will now have members on an island because that was their best move relative to media content. It’s not that the B1G is greedy, it’s that the B1G has pragmatic leaders that needed to build a new foundation for its future (with better options than those offered by an Alliance with the PAC and ACC).
If ESPN is willing to substantially increase payouts with a handful of west coast programs, then it should be a simple decision for ACC members. ACC and PAC schools have similar attributes. This would allow the new ACC to capitalize on the explosion of Tier 1 & 2 media revenue.
RE: Is the expansion still an option for the ACC? - orangefan - 12-19-2022 12:24 PM
(12-16-2022 08:16 AM)GoWulfPak Wrote: I'm all for WVU as they care about football, have a HUGE fan base and have ties with northern ACC schools.
That said...the money is in Texas. ACCN money that is....black gold...Texas Tea.
Baylor and TCU would do wonders for the ACC.
Yes, yes, yes and yes. You add two competitive football programs and add the State of Texas, particularly DFW, to the conference footprint. DFW becomes a local market for the ACCN and DFW is one of the four best football recruiting markets in the country, along with Miami, Atlanta and Los Angeles.
RE: Is the expansion still an option for the ACC? - esayem - 12-19-2022 01:15 PM
(12-18-2022 07:00 AM)Garrettabc Wrote: Add all 10 Pac schools and call it a day, just as long as FSU does not have to take their non-rev sports to the left coast.
I would be curious to know how much that would increase the conference payout, ACCN included.
RE: Is the expansion still an option for the ACC? - esayem - 12-19-2022 01:37 PM
Give me WVU and Houston and I’ll build you an empire.
WVU vs Syracuse, Pitt, and VaTech
Houston vs Miami, FSU, and Louisville
RE: Is the expansion still an option for the ACC? - XLance - 12-19-2022 02:08 PM
(12-19-2022 01:37 PM)esayem Wrote: Give me WVU and Houston and I’ll build you an empire.
WVU vs Syracuse, Pitt, and VaTech
Houston vs Miami, FSU, and Louisville
https://www.texasmonthly.com/arts-entertainment/houston-cougars-football-attendance/
![[Image: emot_stoopsfaceshake.gif]](https://www.dirtburglars.com/core/smilies/0/0/3/9/8/1//emot_stoopsfaceshake.gif)
![[Image: uh-football-low-attendance.jpg?auto=comp...amp;w=1300]](https://img.texasmonthly.com/2022/08/uh-football-low-attendance.jpg?auto=compress&crop=faces&fit=fit&fm=webp&h=0&ixlib=php-3.3.1&q=45&w=1300)
RE: Is the expansion still an option for the ACC? - esayem - 12-19-2022 02:19 PM
(12-19-2022 02:08 PM)XLance Wrote:(12-19-2022 01:37 PM)esayem Wrote: Give me WVU and Houston and I’ll build you an empire.
WVU vs Syracuse, Pitt, and VaTech
Houston vs Miami, FSU, and Louisville
https://www.texasmonthly.com/arts-entertainment/houston-cougars-football-attendance/
Attendance? I venture to say it goes up regardless of which P5 league they join.
UH has an incredibly high ceiling.
RE: Is the expansion still an option for the ACC? - ChrisLords - 12-19-2022 02:24 PM
(12-19-2022 02:08 PM)XLance Wrote:(12-19-2022 01:37 PM)esayem Wrote: Give me WVU and Houston and I’ll build you an empire.
WVU vs Syracuse, Pitt, and VaTech
Houston vs Miami, FSU, and Louisville
https://www.texasmonthly.com/arts-entertainment/houston-cougars-football-attendance/
How about WVU and TCU instead? Assume TCU wins the CFP.....
RE: Is the expansion still an option for the ACC? - Hokie Mark - 12-19-2022 03:37 PM
Houston is a strange case. It sits in a recruiting area every bit as rich as Miami, but with even less fan support than the Canes get.
Still, if they can get to the playoffs regularly, the fans likely will come...
RE: Is the expansion still an option for the ACC? - SouthernConfBoy - 12-19-2022 04:59 PM
(12-19-2022 03:37 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote: Houston is a strange case. It sits in a recruiting area every bit as rich as Miami, but with even less fan support than the Canes get.
Still, if they can get to the playoffs regularly, the fans likely will come...
There are about 10 million people in the greater Houston combined metro statistical area.
Those folks are being sold -
3.2 million MLB tickets
710K NFL tickets
780K NBA tickets
735K SEC football tickets
240K Rice football tickets
These alone represent 5.6 million tickets for 10 million people. Houston sells into this sea of competition and competes with the nearby coast.
Houston is not a "deep south" southern City. It's an anomaly of sorts - sort of a world city with large swaths of people from other continents. It's somewhat like Miami, SF, and Seattle in this way.
RE: Is the expansion still an option for the ACC? - msm96wolf - 12-19-2022 07:49 PM
What I would like to see.
Navy football only or SMU all sports
WVU
OK State
Kansas
Baylor
TCU
RE: Is the expansion still an option for the ACC? - Hokie Mark - 12-19-2022 09:57 PM
(12-19-2022 07:49 PM)msm96wolf Wrote: What I would like to see.
Navy football only or SMU all sports
WVU
OK State
Kansas
Baylor
TCU
Unfortunately, when the time to get these teams on the cheap presented itself the ACC was trying to partner with the Big Ten and the Pac-12. Now it's probably too late.