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+---- Thread: The elephant in the room when it comes to a P2 take over (/thread-954652.html)
The elephant in the room when it comes to a P2 take over - C2__ - 09-06-2022 03:34 PM
It's markets!
Granted, I know the B1G will command attention in the largest three but you need more when it comes to truly delivering a national product.
32-48 schools, many In rural areas or minor metro areas, will not command the nation's attention in the way of what we have now (and will have and in a couple years). Cut it off at 2 leagues that matter, even if they both add a slew of schools to get to about 24 schools, and a great portion of the nation feels alienated. You need as many markets covered as you do brands. Brands will sometimes do both (be a brand and cover a market) but you will still have millions of alienated eyes not watching you if there's only two shows in town.
I realize markets aren't everything (look at C-USA 3.0 as an example) but if you limit the amount of cities involved and the fanbases that house them, you limit the appeal of your overall product.
All of this greed is gonna backfire on the various Powers That Be. You'll be completely dead in parts of the country (New England, Interior West), have to hope your West Coast teams are any good so people will watch the late night games and run the risk of the same few teams dominating (like we've had in recent years), turning even more people off.
RE: The elephant in the room when it comes to a P2 take over - Captain Bearcat - 09-06-2022 03:54 PM
Yeah, the fact is that the NFL, MLB, and NBA have teams in every single top-10 market. In the largest markets, they often have 2 teams. (NHL even has 3 teams in the NYC market).
The P2 lacks teams in 8 of the top 15 TV markets (Philadelphia, DFW, SF Bay, Houston, Boston, Tampa, Phoenix, Seattle).
If you go by CMSA, the P2 lacks teams in 9 of the top 15 markets (Orlando and Miami in addition to 7 of those other 8).
However, it's impractical to invite teams in every large market. There's no scenario where Boston College and Temple and TCU and Miami and Houston and Arizona State all get invited to a P2. That sort of argues against a push for a P2 breakaway that excludes the rest of the FBS.
RE: The elephant in the room when it comes to a P2 take over - Michael in Raleigh - 09-06-2022 03:58 PM
College football is huge in cities that don't even have SEC or Big Ten teams.
Orlando, Tampa, Miami: tons of Florida fans. Tons of Midwesterners who who relocated and follow their Big Ten teams.
Atlanta: Loaded with SEC fans. The city is the capital of College Football.
Chicago: Big Ten alumni of every stripe.
Houston and Dallas: The Texas SEC schools and many others.
Where do you think all these alumni go? Small Town, USA? No. They go where the jobs are, which is largely Big cities.
RE: The elephant in the room when it comes to a P2 take over - Michael in Raleigh - 09-06-2022 04:01 PM
The idea that you need a school in a big city to own market share in that city just is not true.
There are more App State fans in Charlotte than there are Charlotte fans. And there are more Ohio State fans in Charlotte than in-state App State fans.
RE: The elephant in the room when it comes to a P2 take over - templefootballfan - 09-06-2022 04:01 PM
Temple would take B-10 invite
help CFB out
RE: The elephant in the room when it comes to a P2 take over - C2__ - 09-06-2022 04:03 PM
But what about places like Phoenix, Kansas City, Boston, Philadelphia, Denver, etc... Who do the alums and fans in those markets root for in this Brave New World?
RE: The elephant in the room when it comes to a P2 take over - UpStreamRedTeam - 09-06-2022 04:06 PM
(09-06-2022 03:54 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote: Yeah, the fact is that the NFL, MLB, and NBA have teams in every single top-10 market. In the largest markets, they often have 2 teams. (NHL even has 3 teams in the NYC market).
The P2 lacks teams in 8 of the top 15 TV markets (Philadelphia, DFW, SF Bay, Houston, Boston, Tampa, Phoenix, Seattle).
If you go by CMSA, the P2 lacks teams in 9 of the top 15 markets (Orlando and Miami in addition to 7 of those other 8).
However, it's impractical to invite teams in every large market. There's no scenario where Boston College and Temple and TCU and Miami and Houston and Arizona State all get invited to a P2. That sort of argues against a push for a P2 breakaway that excludes the rest of the FBS.
I think Penn State had Philly covered.
RE: The elephant in the room when it comes to a P2 take over - Claw - 09-06-2022 04:06 PM
That's the beauty of the SEC. Their markets aren't based on a city or a market. They are based on whole regions and even better, regions that hate each other.
RE: The elephant in the room when it comes to a P2 take over - bryanw1995 - 09-06-2022 04:07 PM
If it was just about "markets" then UH would be in the SEC and A&M would be hoping that the big 12 was going to stay together. Most schools in both the B1G and SEC and in rural, or at least not large urban markets and they seem to be doing just fine.
Just a few that I can think of off the top of my head that are in rural or small-ish cities:
Nebraska
Auburn
Alabama
A&M
PSU
Iowa
Wisconsin
Florida
UGA
LSU
Ole Miss
Kentucky
Michigan
Tennessee
Rutgers
P2 schools in large-ish urban areas but not top markets:
Ohio State
texas
OU
Northwestern
Vanderbilt
The only schools from the P2 that are actually located in large cities are USC and UCLA, and they carry LA about as well as Wisconsin does.
What matters for these rural colleges with huge alumni bases is how far their reach extends, not a dominant position in one city.
As far as getting the nation "covered", this actually makes it much harder for a breakaway of only the P2, or even of all of the P5, to be successful. There are just as many FBS schools outside of the P2 as are in it, and their fans are just as loyal to their schools as I am to A&M. I would guess that most of them end up in any potential breakaway football division. Perhaps all of them, plus a means for FCS schools to be considered for promotion, too.
RE: The elephant in the room when it comes to a P2 take over - Captain Bearcat - 09-06-2022 04:08 PM
(09-06-2022 04:01 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote: The idea that you need a school in a big city to own market share in that city just is not true.
There are more App State fans in Charlotte than there are Charlotte fans. And there are more Ohio State fans in Charlotte than in-state App State fans.
This is all true.
But nothing beats a hometown team.
The Packers are popular, but they're the exception because they're consistent winners. But if the whole league is like the Packers, it's essentially a minor league with minor league-level interest. There's a darn good reason that every other small-town NFL franchise moved to a big city.
RE: The elephant in the room when it comes to a P2 take over - C2__ - 09-06-2022 04:13 PM
(09-06-2022 04:01 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote: The idea that you need a school in a big city to own market share in that city just is not true.
There are more App State fans in Charlotte than there are Charlotte fans. And there are more Ohio State fans in Charlotte than in-state App State fans.
Somehow, I doubt that. I mean, I know Ohio State is popular but they shouldn't penetrate markets like that so much that they overshadow local teams, even FBS startups. Outside the Midwest, of course.
RE: The elephant in the room when it comes to a P2 take over - Michael in Raleigh - 09-06-2022 04:15 PM
(09-06-2022 04:03 PM)_C2_ Wrote: But what about places like Phoenix, Kansas City, Boston, Philadelphia, Denver, etc... Who do the alums and fans in those markets root for in this Brave New World?
Phoenix is filled with transplants from Cali and the Midwest. They'll continue rooting for their home state schools.
CFB fans will continue to root for Mizzou. K-State would take a hit, but KU hasn't had a competent team in over a decade, anyway.
Boston hasn't had a CFB scene in my 40 years on earth. Or at least not since I was in diapers when Flutie was there. No change there.
Philly doesn't have a huge CFB scene as it is, but what they do have is nearby Big Ten schools Maryland and Rutgers.
Denver? You got me. That would take a big hit.
I'll speak for myself: Barring a Penn State/Michigan Sate doctor/Baylor type of criminal behavior, I'm going to support my school and team enthusiastically no matter what the B1G or SEC do. App has an incredible winning tradition and culture no matter who's the coach or what's happening around them.
RE: The elephant in the room when it comes to a P2 take over - Porcine - 09-06-2022 04:17 PM
(09-06-2022 04:06 PM)Claw Wrote: That's the beauty of the SEC. Their markets aren't based on a city or a market. They are based on whole regions and even better, regions that hate each other.
My state can whip your state.
RE: The elephant in the room when it comes to a P2 take over - BewareThePhog - 09-06-2022 04:18 PM
(09-06-2022 04:03 PM)_C2_ Wrote: But what about places like Phoenix, Kansas City, Boston, Philadelphia, Denver, etc... Who do the alums and fans in those markets root for in this Brave New World?They’d tune it out…which is why I doubt that there’s going to be a full-scale breakaway, but rather a system that ensures that teams in the dominant leagues have plenty of slots available and other advantages, but there will still be limited opportunities for “the rest”.
RE: The elephant in the room when it comes to a P2 take over - bryanw1995 - 09-06-2022 04:18 PM
(09-06-2022 04:15 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:(09-06-2022 04:03 PM)_C2_ Wrote: But what about places like Phoenix, Kansas City, Boston, Philadelphia, Denver, etc... Who do the alums and fans in those markets root for in this Brave New World?
Phoenix is filled with transplants from Cali and the Midwest. They'll continue rooting for their home state schools.
CFB fans will continue to root for Mizzou. K-State would take a hit, but KU hasn't had a competent team in over a decade, anyway.
Boston hasn't had a CFB scene in my 40 years on earth. Or at least not since I was in diapers when Flutie was there. No change there.
Philly doesn't have a huge CFB scene as it is, but what they do have is nearby Big Ten schools Maryland and Rutgers.
Denver? You got me. That would take a big hit.
I'll speak for myself: Barring a Penn State/Michigan Sate doctor/Baylor type of criminal behavior, I'm going to support my school and team enthusiastically no matter what the B1G or SEC do. App has an incredible winning tradition and culture no matter who's the coach or what's happening around them.
Yeah, Philly is dominated by Maryland and Rutgers fans. PSU is nothing there.
RE: The elephant in the room when it comes to a P2 take over - Claw - 09-06-2022 04:30 PM
(09-06-2022 04:17 PM)Porcine Wrote:(09-06-2022 04:06 PM)Claw Wrote: That's the beauty of the SEC. Their markets aren't based on a city or a market. They are based on whole regions and even better, regions that hate each other.
My state can whip your state.
Yep. When I was a kid, the Tennessee and Alabama sides of the family used to all come to town and watch that game together. It's a big game still fifty years later.
My late Aunt Dorothy, a Tennessean, once said, "Those poor people in Kentucky. basketball is just all they've got."
Kurt Vonnegut's Granfalloon's at their pinnacle: "a proud and meaningless association of human beings." But it sells tickets and advertising.
RE: The elephant in the room when it comes to a P2 take over - Michael in Raleigh - 09-06-2022 04:38 PM
(09-06-2022 04:13 PM)_C2_ Wrote:(09-06-2022 04:01 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote: The idea that you need a school in a big city to own market share in that city just is not true.
There are more App State fans in Charlotte than there are Charlotte fans. And there are more Ohio State fans in Charlotte than in-state App State fans.
Somehow, I doubt that. I mean, I know Ohio State is popular but they shouldn't penetrate markets like that so much that they overshadow local teams, even FBS startups.
Honestly, I came across some study last week that listed the top five most popular CFB teams in every major U.S. metro, and Ohio State was top five in almost every city, including the west coast. But I can't find the danged link. Can't say much more about that.
I did find this from 2014, which of course was eight years ago. It listed Ohio State number three in Mecklenburg County, NC, i.e. Charlotte.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/footballscoop.com/.amp/news/map-breaks-popular-college-football-teams-zip-code
RE: The elephant in the room when it comes to a P2 take over - Michael in Raleigh - 09-06-2022 04:40 PM
(09-06-2022 04:18 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:(09-06-2022 04:15 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:(09-06-2022 04:03 PM)_C2_ Wrote: But what about places like Phoenix, Kansas City, Boston, Philadelphia, Denver, etc... Who do the alums and fans in those markets root for in this Brave New World?
Phoenix is filled with transplants from Cali and the Midwest. They'll continue rooting for their home state schools.
CFB fans will continue to root for Mizzou. K-State would take a hit, but KU hasn't had a competent team in over a decade, anyway.
Boston hasn't had a CFB scene in my 40 years on earth. Or at least not since I was in diapers when Flutie was there. No change there.
Philly doesn't have a huge CFB scene as it is, but what they do have is nearby Big Ten schools Maryland and Rutgers.
Denver? You got me. That would take a big hit.
I'll speak for myself: Barring a Penn State/Michigan Sate doctor/Baylor type of criminal behavior, I'm going to support my school and team enthusiastically no matter what the B1G or SEC do. App has an incredible winning tradition and culture no matter who's the coach or what's happening around them.
Yeah, Philly is dominated by Maryland and Rutgers fans. PSU is nothing there.
Major major brain fart on my part there. Penn State of course is way more popular in Philly.
RE: The elephant in the room when it comes to a P2 take over - Michael in Raleigh - 09-06-2022 04:48 PM
(09-06-2022 04:18 PM)BewareThePhog Wrote:(09-06-2022 04:03 PM)_C2_ Wrote: But what about places like Phoenix, Kansas City, Boston, Philadelphia, Denver, etc... Who do the alums and fans in those markets root for in this Brave New World?They’d tune it out…which is why I doubt that there’s going to be a full-scale breakaway, but rather a system that ensures that teams in the dominant leagues have plenty of slots available and other advantages, but there will still be limited opportunities for “the rest”.
This is probably how it will actually play out.
RE: The elephant in the room when it comes to a P2 take over - bullet - 09-06-2022 04:57 PM
(09-06-2022 03:54 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote: Yeah, the fact is that the NFL, MLB, and NBA have teams in every single top-10 market. In the largest markets, they often have 2 teams. (NHL even has 3 teams in the NYC market).
The P2 lacks teams in 8 of the top 15 TV markets (Philadelphia, DFW, SF Bay, Houston, Boston, Tampa, Phoenix, Seattle).
If you go by CMSA, the P2 lacks teams in 9 of the top 15 markets (Orlando and Miami in addition to 7 of those other 8).
However, it's impractical to invite teams in every large market. There's no scenario where Boston College and Temple and TCU and Miami and Houston and Arizona State all get invited to a P2. That sort of argues against a push for a P2 breakaway that excludes the rest of the FBS.
But Penn St. is the biggest team in Philadelphia. Texas is the biggest team in DFW and OU and A&M are top 4. Texas and Texas A&M are 1 & 2 in Houston. Florida is #1 in Tampa.