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Is the AAU really needed??? - DawgNBama - 04-24-2022 12:14 AM
Ok let's try this one more time. I will do my best to keep politics out of this, but if I hear anything about red states/blue states I will ask for this thread to be locked.
Is the AAU really needed?? I would argue that it is not. I believe that it unfairly punishes some universities, and gives other universities/colleges a pass when it should not. One could really argue that the AAU should be expanded if the AAU was really being true to its original mission.
Its current state is too much of a beauty pageant/fraternity/sorority governance, IMO.
RE: Is the AAU really needed??? - Statefan - 04-24-2022 01:50 AM
(04-24-2022 12:14 AM)DawgNBama Wrote: Ok let's try this one more time. I will do my best to keep politics out of this, but if I hear anything about red states/blue states I will ask for this thread to be locked.
Is the AAU really needed?? I would argue that it is not. I believe that it unfairly punishes some universities, and gives other universities/colleges a pass when it should not. One could really argue that the AAU should be expanded if the AAU was really being true to its original mission.
Its current state is too much of a beauty pageant/fraternity/sorority governance, IMO.
It's a private association, like you local cotillion club. It "punishes" no one because it is not open to everyone hence the word "private".
Is it elitist? Yes
Is it snobbish? Yes
Is it classist? Yes
Does it attempt to steer resources on to it's members? Yes
This is the nature of all private organizations. AAU is a Deb Ball
North Carolina Debutante Ball
by Hart Huffines, 2006The debutante ball at Memorial Auditorium in Raleigh, 11 Sept. 1938. Courtesy of North Carolina Office of Archives and History, Raleigh.
The debutante ball at Memorial Auditorium in Raleigh, 11 Sept. 1938. Courtesy of North Carolina Office of Archives and History, Raleigh.
Debutante balls, or cotillions-social events in which parents formally present their teenage daughters to adult society-have been a feature of U.S. culture since the late nineteenth century. These balls, some of them all-white affairs, continue to be held in small numbers in North Carolina and other states. They remain controversial because of their unconcealed exclusivity, which is often based on economic and racial distinctions. The private, closed nature of some of the clubs that sponsor debutante balls has raised concern among those who view them as anachronistic and disturbing remnants of a racially segregated past. Supporters of debutante balls, however, argue that the events are important cultural institutions rooted in honorable traditions of personal and family pride, women's stature, and social responsibility, as well as a constitutional right to form private organizations.
First Debutante Ball in Winston-Salem, 1956. The oldest and perhaps most influential ball still held in the state is the North Carolina Debutante Ball, sponsored annually by the Terpsichorean Club of Raleigh. Long considered the premier social event in the state, it originated in 1923 as the "Raleigh Fall Festival," sponsored by the merchants of the city. Prominent young white ladies from throughout the state were presented as candidates for Queen of the Festival before a queen was crowned by the governor. In 1927 the Terpsichorean Club was formed and held the first North Carolina Debutante Ball. The purpose of the club, which derived its name from the Greek mythological muse, Terpsichore, the goddess of dancing and choral song, was to "sponsor annually a ball for the presentation of North Carolina Debutantes to be held in Raleigh on the first weekend after Labor Day."
As the debutantes' activities grew from a one-night ball to a weekend of parties, teas, luncheons, and a second big dance, the ritual of having the debutantes formally presented was established. Each participant originally chose one chief marshal and four assistants. In 1956 the number of assistant marshals was reduced to two, and in 1963 the selection of fathers as chief marshals was encouraged, a change that greatly enhanced the dignity and significance of the occasion for the debutantes and their families.
The North Carolina Debutante Ball has been held every year since 1923, except during World War II. Because of the polio epidemic in 1948 it was postponed until a few days after Christmas, and it was postponed for the same period in 1996 because of the damage wrought across the state by Hurricane Fran.
Additional Resources:
Debutante Ball Society of Durham Inc. Records, 1951-2009, UNC Libraries: http://www.lib.unc.edu/mss/inv/d/Debutante_Ball_Society_of_Durham_Inc.html
Image Credit:
First Debutante Ball in Winston-Salem, 1956. 1st row: Elizabeth Fenwick, Margaret Boaz, Shannon Harper, Sara Pullen, Nancy Graves, Mary Shepherd, Betsy Babcock, Mary Hill, Jane Irby, and Florence Fearrington. 2nd row: Mary Carlyle, Sallie Hunter, Alice Eller, Murrianne Tinker, Sylvia Ferrell, Charlotte Harper, Susan Taylor, Louise Graham, Elizabeth Hightower, Evelyn Moore, Elizabeth Hart, and Nancy Hill. First Debutante Ball in Winston-Salem, 1956. Available online from Digital Forsyth at http://www.digitalforsyth.org/photos/11016 (accessed Septemeber 19, 2012).
Any good club has it's racial or class analog:
Debutante Daughters: Celebrating Black Life at Cotillion
December 2, 2021 by Ryan Reft
This is a guest post by Lanai Huddleston, Archives History and Heritage Advanced Internship intern in the Manuscript Division, winter 2021. Lanai is a 2021 graduate of Howard University and majored in philosophy and history.
A woman in a white dress with flowers appears on the cover of the 25th Alpha Kappa Alpha annual debutant ball program
25th Alpha Kappa Alpha annual debutante ball program cover. Box 71, DuPree African American Pentecostal Collection, Manuscript Division, Library of Congress.
The DuPree African American Pentecostal Collection was acquired by the Manuscript Division in 2019 for its rich documentation of several denominations and congregations of African American churches, especially the Church of God in Christ. The collection is an essential resource, which traces the history of the Black church and reflects many aspects of African American culture, not typically preserved in archival repositories. One such example from the collection is a pamphlet commemorating the 25th Annual Debutante Ball hosted by Alpha Kappa Alpha, Alpha Theta Omega Chapter of Raleigh, North Carolina, in 1962.
In 1908 on the campus of Howard University in Washington, D.C., nine collegiate women founded Alpha Kappa Alpha, the first African American Greek-lettered sorority. These women distinguished themselves both on campus and in the community as women of culture, class, and refinement. Believing the cultivation of African American culture was the key to community uplift, Alpha Kappa Alpha members have always embraced the beauty of Black womanhood and sisterhood. Over the years, the women of this illustrious organization, including notably Kamala Harris, Maya Angelou, Rosa Parks, and many other outstanding Black women, have continued their celebration of Black life through programming. This work is carried out through membership units known as chapters assigned to specific colleges or territories.
The Alpha Theta Omega Chapter of Alpha Kappa Alpha was founded in 1928 by South Regional Director, Vivian Mason, and International President, B. Beatrix Scott in Raleigh, North Carolina. The tradition of the Alpha Theta Omega chapter’s debutante ball, formally known as the Debutante Scholarship Program, began in 1937 through the efforts of its founder, Susie Vick Perry, who sought to create scholarship opportunities for promising young Black women. Perry’s efforts within her chapter and community resulted in her induction to the Raleigh Hall of Fame in 2007.[1]
The history of debutante balls began in seventeenth-century England, where they were used to present young women formally to society. Initially, debutante balls existed for “upper-class” women, as they allowed aristocratic families to vie for better marriage prospects for their daughters.[2] However, the tradition took root in the American South after the first American debutante ball in Savannah, Georgia, in 1817. Afterwards, the practice of debutante balls, otherwise known as “cotillions” in the South, became a rite of passage for well-off young women, establishing them as cultured members of their community. However, cotillion balls were segregated and expensive, and as a result, young Black girls were excluded.[3] Debutante balls finally appeared in Black social circles during the 1930s, in large part due to the efforts of Black sororities, fraternities, and community organizations that would come to host them.[4]
Thumbnail photos of members of the Alpha Kappa Alpha, Alpha Theta Omega Chapter
The women of Alpha Kappa Alpha, Alpha Theta Omega Chapter, 1962. Box 71, DuPree African American Pentecostal Collection, Manuscript Division, Library of Congress.
While it is not uncommon for debutante balls to require several weeks of formal instruction before presentation, Alpha Theta Omega’s debutante ball required a full year of preparation filled with rich vocational activities such as etiquette-oriented “charm” clinics, a tour of the governor’s mansion, community service, and much more. The immersive nature of the program enabled the women of Alpha Theta Omega to bond closely with the debutantes through mentorship and networking. Debutante balls also served as scholarship competitions; many of the participants in them held long-term professional and academic goals.[5] By spending a year with Alpha Theta Omega, whose members were often the professionals and academics of the Raleigh community, Alpha Kappa Alpha debutantes gained an early professional edge through the cultivation of Black debutante ball culture. The festivities commemorating the completion of the program lasted three days. The formal introduction of the debutantes was the final event of the second night, and the third day was the young women’s first outing as full-fledged Alpha Kappa Alpha debutantes.
The debutante ball served as testament to the sorority’s commitment to the community. One example of such a commitment is the relationship forged between the Alpha Theta Omega Chapter and the J. W. Ligon Junior-Senior High School community. For instance, the Basileus (president) of Alpha Theta Omega in 1962, during the 25th Annual Ball, was Harriett Webster, a Raleigh native and alumna of the high school. A historically all-Black high school not integrated until 1971, the presence of Alpha Kappa Alpha undoubtedly meant the inclusion of young Black women in aspects of southern social culture they would have otherwise been excluded from, much like the exclusion the founders of the organization faced in Washington, D.C., social life in 1908. It is not difficult to imagine that perhaps during her matriculation, Webster envisioned participating in a nearly identical event to the debutante balls she would later plan with her sorority. As the participating high schools varied from year to year, similar relationships likely existed between other members and their alma maters.
Though aimed at scholarship and refinement, debutante balls also served as an opportunity to build relationships. Participation in the ball for some functioned as a segue into sorority membership later on. The Alpha Kappa Alpha, Alpha Theta Omega Chapter Debutante Ball program, preserved in the DuPree African American Pentecostal Collection, illustrates the significance this tradition has had in the lives of young Black women. The program, an invaluable artifact of Black cultural history, is the product of intergenerational sisterhood and proof of the immeasurable value of developing Black cultural tradition.
RE: Is the AAU really needed??? - Frank the Tank - 04-24-2022 08:48 AM
Whether anything is “needed” is totally subjective and in the eye of the beholder. The very subject of this entire message board - college sports - is something that is argued by many people to be completely not needed by universities, yet there’s more spent on athletics than ever. In Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs, pretty much everything that we discuss here is superfluous stuff at the top of the pyramid.
Your argument seems to be that the AAU membership should be more open. I don’t agree as it has never been the purpose of that organization to be an open “check the box and you’re in” association. Instead, from the very beginning, they’re aiming to represent the top research universities in North America at any given point in time. It’s a fact of life that the stature of some universities can rise, which inherently means that others will fall in relative stature even if those that fall don’t even necessarily do anything wrong. We, as college sports fans, ought to know this better than anyone because we base who gets into a football playoff based on a totally subjective ranking where teams drop spots even though they didn’t even lose every single week.
The AAU is NOT a participation trophy in academia. What you’re arguing for the AAU seems to be more of the role of an accreditation body, which already exists. The fact that the AAU is elite IS the point - they’re essentially the P5 of research institutions. Those accreditation associations are the ones that essentially say, “OK - you’re actually providing an education to your students that’s more than a diploma mill.” That’s like saying that you’re a Division I school, but we all know that Division I ranges from Ohio State down to Chicago State. Pretending that there isn’t a distinction between the top universities and the rest is just as fool-hardy in pretending that there isn’t a distinction between the P5 and the rest of college sports. There are always going to be a handful of schools that are superficially on the cusp of P5 or AAU membership but can’t break through for what may seemingly be subjective reasons, but that’s simply the nature of the beast in a zero sum game. I don’t have any issue with the AAU at all - universities should all be striving to be at the top of academia. Frankly, it’s a heck of a lot more important compared to striving for the top for sports.
RE: Is the AAU really needed??? - Wahoowa84 - 04-24-2022 09:24 AM
The AAU doesn’t punish anyone. It’s just an exclusive club created to advocate the value of academic research.
Maybe some alumni and academics at Clark, Catholic, Nebraska, Syracuse and Iowa State would gain false “prestige” if their universities were still in the club…but real academic research doesn’t benefit from being in the AAU.
As it relates to athletics, there are only four conferences that require strong academic research as a core value of its members: B1G (13 of 14 members are also AAU members), PAC (9 of 12), Ivy (8 of 8) and DIII UAA (8 of 8). It’s a way to build commonality of the conference membership. It also may limit their effectiveness in athletic competition.
RE: Is the AAU really needed??? - whittx - 04-24-2022 09:53 AM
(04-24-2022 09:24 AM)Wahoowa84 Wrote: The AAU doesn’t punish anyone. It’s just an exclusive club created to advocate the value of academic research.
Maybe some alumni and academics at Clark, Catholic, Nebraska, Syracuse and Iowa State would gain false “prestige” if their universities were still in the club…but real academic research doesn’t benefit from being in the AAU.
As it relates to athletics, there are only four conferences that require strong academic research as a core value of its members: B1G (13 of 14 members are also AAU members), PAC (9 of 12), Ivy (8 of 8) and DIII UAA (8 of 8). It’s a way to build commonality of the conference membership. It also may limit their effectiveness in athletic competition.
If SUNY Upstate and ESF were still part of SU, they would still be an AAU school.
RE: Is the AAU really needed??? - schmolik - 04-24-2022 09:55 AM
I wonder if the Big Ten universities would ever do something as underhanded as offer Georgia and Alabama spots in the AAU if they joined the Big Ten ... and would it work?
RE: Is the AAU really needed??? - bullet - 04-24-2022 10:27 AM
(04-24-2022 08:48 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote: Whether anything is “needed” is totally subjective and in the eye of the beholder. The very subject of this entire message board - college sports - is something that is argued by many people to be completely not needed by universities, yet there’s more spent on athletics than ever. In Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs, pretty much everything that we discuss here is superfluous stuff at the top of the pyramid.
Your argument seems to be that the AAU membership should be more open. I don’t agree as it has never been the purpose of that organization to be an open “check the box and you’re in” association. Instead, from the very beginning, they’re aiming to represent the top research universities in North America at any given point in time. It’s a fact of life that the stature of some universities can rise, which inherently means that others will fall in relative stature even if those that fall don’t even necessarily do anything wrong. We, as college sports fans, ought to know this better than anyone because we base who gets into a football playoff based on a totally subjective ranking where teams drop spots even though they didn’t even lose every single week.
The AAU is NOT a participation trophy in academia. What you’re arguing for the AAU seems to be more of the role of an accreditation body, which already exists. The fact that the AAU is elite IS the point - they’re essentially the P5 of research institutions. Those accreditation associations are the ones that essentially say, “OK - you’re actually providing an education to your students that’s more than a diploma mill.” That’s like saying that you’re a Division I school, but we all know that Division I ranges from Ohio State down to Chicago State. Pretending that there isn’t a distinction between the top universities and the rest is just as fool-hardy in pretending that there isn’t a distinction between the P5 and the rest of college sports. There are always going to be a handful of schools that are superficially on the cusp of P5 or AAU membership but can’t break through for what may seemingly be subjective reasons, but that’s simply the nature of the beast in a zero sum game. I don’t have any issue with the AAU at all - universities should all be striving to be at the top of academia. Frankly, it’s a heck of a lot more important compared to striving for the top for sports.
Its a lobbying group. Any lobbying group has its criteria for membership.
RE: Is the AAU really needed??? - bullet - 04-24-2022 10:31 AM
(04-24-2022 09:55 AM)schmolik Wrote: I wonder if the Big Ten universities would ever do something as underhanded as offer Georgia and Alabama spots in the AAU if they joined the Big Ten ... and would it work?
1. They don't have enough votes.
2. It wouldn't be of that much value.
3. They'll vote for Alabama the day Ohio St. fans root for Michigan to win the conference in years they can't. It will be a cold day....
RE: Is the AAU really needed??? - Frank the Tank - 04-24-2022 10:40 AM
(04-24-2022 10:31 AM)bullet Wrote:(04-24-2022 09:55 AM)schmolik Wrote: I wonder if the Big Ten universities would ever do something as underhanded as offer Georgia and Alabama spots in the AAU if they joined the Big Ten ... and would it work?
1. They don't have enough votes.
2. It wouldn't be of that much value.
3. They'll vote for Alabama the day Ohio St. fans root for Michigan to win the conference in years they can't. It will be a cold day....
Yeah - it wouldn’t work. Michigan and Wisconsin didn’t even vote to protect Nebraska from losing AAU status after they were invited to the Big Ten. Michigan, in particular, loves the gatekeeper role in pretty much everything that it’s involved in, whether academics or sports, to say the least.
RE: Is the AAU really needed??? - Wahoowa84 - 04-24-2022 10:44 AM
(04-24-2022 09:55 AM)schmolik Wrote: I wonder if the Big Ten universities would ever do something as underhanded as offer Georgia and Alabama spots in the AAU if they joined the Big Ten ... and would it work?
LOL - UGa could be interested. Ever since Georgia Tech got in the club, they’re at a disadvantage. It’s harder to tell about Bama. There is a building boom in Tuscaloosa…it’s too early to make a call on the desired end state.
RE: Is the AAU really needed??? - Wahoowa84 - 04-24-2022 10:57 AM
(04-24-2022 10:40 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:(04-24-2022 10:31 AM)bullet Wrote:(04-24-2022 09:55 AM)schmolik Wrote: I wonder if the Big Ten universities would ever do something as underhanded as offer Georgia and Alabama spots in the AAU if they joined the Big Ten ... and would it work?
1. They don't have enough votes.
2. It wouldn't be of that much value.
3. They'll vote for Alabama the day Ohio St. fans root for Michigan to win the conference in years they can't. It will be a cold day....
Yeah - it wouldn’t work. Michigan and Wisconsin didn’t even vote to protect Nebraska from losing AAU status after they were invited to the Big Ten. Michigan, in particular, loves the gatekeeper role in pretty much everything that it’s involved in, whether academics or sports, to say the least.
With those purists in Michigan, I don’t believe that even Hawkeye faithful are necessarily safe. Any Huskers who thought that B1G membership would alter the voting were just dreaming.
RE: Is the AAU really needed??? - Milwaukee - 04-24-2022 12:04 PM
(04-24-2022 08:48 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote: Whether anything is “needed” is totally subjective and in the eye of the beholder. The very subject of this entire message board - college sports - is something that is argued by many people to be completely not needed by universities, yet there’s more spent on athletics than ever. In Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs, pretty much everything that we discuss here is superfluous stuff at the top of the pyramid.
Your argument seems to be that the AAU membership should be more open. I don’t agree as it has never been the purpose of that organization to be an open “check the box and you’re in” association. Instead, from the very beginning, they’re aiming to represent the top research universities in North America at any given point in time. It’s a fact of life that the stature of some universities can rise, which inherently means that others will fall in relative stature even if those that fall don’t even necessarily do anything wrong. We, as college sports fans, ought to know this better than anyone because we base who gets into a football playoff based on a totally subjective ranking where teams drop spots even though they didn’t even lose every single week.
The AAU is NOT a participation trophy in academia. What you’re arguing for the AAU seems to be more of the role of an accreditation body, which already exists. The fact that the AAU is elite IS the point - they’re essentially the P5 of research institutions. Those accreditation associations are the ones that essentially say, “OK - you’re actually providing an education to your students that’s more than a diploma mill.” That’s like saying that you’re a Division I school, but we all know that Division I ranges from Ohio State down to Chicago State. Pretending that there isn’t a distinction between the top universities and the rest is just as fool-hardy in pretending that there isn’t a distinction between the P5 and the rest of college sports. There are always going to be a handful of schools that are superficially on the cusp of P5 or AAU membership but can’t break through for what may seemingly be subjective reasons, but that’s simply the nature of the beast in a zero sum game. I don’t have any issue with the AAU at all - universities should all be striving to be at the top of academia. Frankly, it’s a heck of a lot more important compared to striving for the top for sports.
Not a strong argument, because this doesn't do either of the following:
1. The post doesn't state why the AAU should exist - - that is what purpose, if any, the AAU serves.
2. Even the post had been able to prove that the AAU serves a valuable function, the post doesn't make a convincing case why every fully accredited university in the nation shouldn't be part of it.
Moreover, the author can't give a strong argument why the AAU should exist, because there is no convincing reason why the AAU should exist. There is no need for an AAU any more. It may have had a useful function in 1900, but it doesn't have one today.
Much like a Senator or Congressman who runs for the office simply because he seeks the personal prestige and power of the office, and does nothing more than to serve as a party functionary or "hack," the members of the AAU seek to maintain their membership simply for the power and prestige that an AAU membership brings. The AAU universities don't seem to do anything at all that benefits anyone except themselves. They simply use their AAU status to feather their own nests, and thus, their effect on college sports is a net negative.
.
RE: Is the AAU really needed??? - Frank the Tank - 04-24-2022 01:29 PM
(04-24-2022 12:04 PM)Milwaukee Wrote:(04-24-2022 08:48 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote: Whether anything is “needed” is totally subjective and in the eye of the beholder. The very subject of this entire message board - college sports - is something that is argued by many people to be completely not needed by universities, yet there’s more spent on athletics than ever. In Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs, pretty much everything that we discuss here is superfluous stuff at the top of the pyramid.
Your argument seems to be that the AAU membership should be more open. I don’t agree as it has never been the purpose of that organization to be an open “check the box and you’re in” association. Instead, from the very beginning, they’re aiming to represent the top research universities in North America at any given point in time. It’s a fact of life that the stature of some universities can rise, which inherently means that others will fall in relative stature even if those that fall don’t even necessarily do anything wrong. We, as college sports fans, ought to know this better than anyone because we base who gets into a football playoff based on a totally subjective ranking where teams drop spots even though they didn’t even lose every single week.
The AAU is NOT a participation trophy in academia. What you’re arguing for the AAU seems to be more of the role of an accreditation body, which already exists. The fact that the AAU is elite IS the point - they’re essentially the P5 of research institutions. Those accreditation associations are the ones that essentially say, “OK - you’re actually providing an education to your students that’s more than a diploma mill.” That’s like saying that you’re a Division I school, but we all know that Division I ranges from Ohio State down to Chicago State. Pretending that there isn’t a distinction between the top universities and the rest is just as fool-hardy in pretending that there isn’t a distinction between the P5 and the rest of college sports. There are always going to be a handful of schools that are superficially on the cusp of P5 or AAU membership but can’t break through for what may seemingly be subjective reasons, but that’s simply the nature of the beast in a zero sum game. I don’t have any issue with the AAU at all - universities should all be striving to be at the top of academia. Frankly, it’s a heck of a lot more important compared to striving for the top for sports.
Not a strong argument, because this doesn't do either of the following:
1. The post doesn't state why the AAU should exist - - that is what purpose, if any, the AAU serves.
2. Even the post had been able to prove that the AAU serves a valuable function, the post doesn't make a convincing case why every fully accredited university in the nation shouldn't be part of it.
Moreover, the author can't give a strong argument why the AAU should exist, because there is no convincing reason why the AAU should exist. There is no need for an AAU any more. It may have had a useful function in 1900, but it doesn't have one today.
Much like a Senator or Congressman who runs for the office simply because he seeks the personal prestige and power of the office, and does nothing more than to serve as a party functionary or "hack," the members of the AAU seek to maintain their membership simply for the power and prestige that an AAU membership brings. The AAU universities don't seem to do anything at all that benefits anyone except themselves. They simply use their AAU status to feather their own nests, and thus, their effect on college sports is a net negative.
.
I guess I just fundamentally have little problem with your overall point. The AAU can be as exclusive as it wants to be along with advocating for its own members just as the Big Ten and SEC do for its own members. Academic excellence should be celebrated and rewarded as opposed to so many of these myopic charges of elitism that we see a lot these days.
RE: Is the AAU really needed??? - Wahoowa84 - 04-24-2022 02:14 PM
When Johns Hopkins and UVa were first representing the South, the association made sense. After they admitted North Carolina, Texas, Duke and Vanderbilt you knew that the standards had changed.
RE: Is the AAU really needed??? - NJMark - 04-24-2022 03:19 PM
(04-24-2022 01:29 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:(04-24-2022 12:04 PM)Milwaukee Wrote:(04-24-2022 08:48 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote: Whether anything is “needed” is totally subjective and in the eye of the beholder. The very subject of this entire message board - college sports - is something that is argued by many people to be completely not needed by universities, yet there’s more spent on athletics than ever. In Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs, pretty much everything that we discuss here is superfluous stuff at the top of the pyramid.
Your argument seems to be that the AAU membership should be more open. I don’t agree as it has never been the purpose of that organization to be an open “check the box and you’re in” association. Instead, from the very beginning, they’re aiming to represent the top research universities in North America at any given point in time. It’s a fact of life that the stature of some universities can rise, which inherently means that others will fall in relative stature even if those that fall don’t even necessarily do anything wrong. We, as college sports fans, ought to know this better than anyone because we base who gets into a football playoff based on a totally subjective ranking where teams drop spots even though they didn’t even lose every single week.
The AAU is NOT a participation trophy in academia. What you’re arguing for the AAU seems to be more of the role of an accreditation body, which already exists. The fact that the AAU is elite IS the point - they’re essentially the P5 of research institutions. Those accreditation associations are the ones that essentially say, “OK - you’re actually providing an education to your students that’s more than a diploma mill.” That’s like saying that you’re a Division I school, but we all know that Division I ranges from Ohio State down to Chicago State. Pretending that there isn’t a distinction between the top universities and the rest is just as fool-hardy in pretending that there isn’t a distinction between the P5 and the rest of college sports. There are always going to be a handful of schools that are superficially on the cusp of P5 or AAU membership but can’t break through for what may seemingly be subjective reasons, but that’s simply the nature of the beast in a zero sum game. I don’t have any issue with the AAU at all - universities should all be striving to be at the top of academia. Frankly, it’s a heck of a lot more important compared to striving for the top for sports.
Not a strong argument, because this doesn't do either of the following:
1. The post doesn't state why the AAU should exist - - that is what purpose, if any, the AAU serves.
2. Even the post had been able to prove that the AAU serves a valuable function, the post doesn't make a convincing case why every fully accredited university in the nation shouldn't be part of it.
Moreover, the author can't give a strong argument why the AAU should exist, because there is no convincing reason why the AAU should exist. There is no need for an AAU any more. It may have had a useful function in 1900, but it doesn't have one today.
Much like a Senator or Congressman who runs for the office simply because he seeks the personal prestige and power of the office, and does nothing more than to serve as a party functionary or "hack," the members of the AAU seek to maintain their membership simply for the power and prestige that an AAU membership brings. The AAU universities don't seem to do anything at all that benefits anyone except themselves. They simply use their AAU status to feather their own nests, and thus, their effect on college sports is a net negative.
.
I guess I just fundamentally have little problem with your overall point. The AAU can be as exclusive as it wants to be along with advocating for its own members just as the Big Ten and SEC do for its own members. Academic excellence should be celebrated and rewarded as opposed to so many of these myopic charges of elitism that we see a lot these days.
But that's the issue. I first heard of the AAU when Rutgers was admitted, and I thought it was a recognition of the academic quality of the university as a whole, from undergraduate education, graduate education, research, publication (and perhaps a few intangibles).
It turns out that's not what is. It's about doing a preferred type of research, getting money from preferred sources, and getting it in a preferred manner, so as to get more money from those preferred sources (measured by such technicalities as what "counts" as a university medical school).
And that's fine. These schools can get together, pat themselves on the back under those standards, and appoint themselves as "the cool kids." But I don't want the public to be fooled about what it means. To tell them, and prospective students - athlete or otherwise - that "we're in the AAU and that other school you're considering isn't, so that means we're (objectively) better than they are" is severely misleading.
RE: Is the AAU really needed??? - Fresno Fanatic - 04-24-2022 03:38 PM
I think if a conference does or doesn’t FREELY require AAU, that’s their prerogative…fine! This veteran sacrificed for you to do that.
As a socialist that I am, I think it’s stupid and oligarch-ish to say AAU (or non-AAU high research) is any more important to society than the nurse, elementary teacher, burger flipper or street sweeper. That being said, I ain’t saying they should all be paid the same. But they ALL are very important to society and should at least be valued a livable payday, inflation rate be damned! (*ok, maybe not the burger flipper. But they being replaced by kiosks/automation anyway)
But if a conference is worried about their endowment contributions…then, fine! And, F*** off!!!
PS: Sole proprietorships/family businesses should be taxed lower to keep their competitive advantage with corporations. That way they CAN pay their employees more.
RE: Is the AAU really needed??? - Erictelevision - 04-24-2022 03:46 PM
I say “no” because it’s used as a fig leaf to exclude schools in low-population or redundant areas for conference expansion.
RE: Is the AAU really needed??? - colohank - 04-24-2022 04:04 PM
A piece today in Grand Junction's The Daily Sentinel raises an important question: is the Desert Vista Garden Club really needed? Membership is by invitation only, so it's very exclusive. Too chummy, maybe. And members, some of whom have been certified as master gardeners, sneak around doing nefarious things like pruning the roses at select public spaces. Annual dues are $25, but there's no mention of how the club allocates those proceeds. I think an investigation may be warranted.
RE: Is the AAU really needed??? - The Cutter of Bish - 04-24-2022 05:59 PM
I don’t know. If I need to see a “who’s who” of schools who are buying up real estate, building a ton of stuff, and spending like there’s no tomorrow (regardless if they can not pass it onto the students and tax payers), look to the AAU schools. Or those on the brink (either side of in/out). I guess we’re supposed to assume there’s research going on. And optically, that kind of sight test appears to stick with a lot of these schools. Who’s doing big projects, building out infrastructure, buying hospitals or clinical practices?
I mean, if we’re speculating about the likes of Missouri, Kansas, and Brandeis, what are Missouri and Kansas doing these days? I know in the other thread that someone said about some of the capital projects and fundraising at Missouri. That might just be keeping up with the Jones’, though. FWIW, having in-law’s from the Boston/Waltham area, yeah, Brandeis is doing that, too. They’ve bought up a lot of land around the Waltham area; Polaroid shutting down may have helped in that growth area. It helps having tech/cyber-security all around there, too. Head toward Cambridge, and even old Harvard is still at with expansion projects (and buying up and potentially pushing out the old neighborhoods and shops). Around my personal neck of the woods, you can’t not see Penn’s growth in Philly, and Princeton’s got it’s own thing going on there.
To me, is the AAU needed? Not if the rampant growth can’t be tethered with fiscal responsibility, tuition costs, and community impact. And having gone to Penn State, spending just one semester at one of the non-University Park campuses left a wretched taste in my mouth on that front. In Philly, Penn is pretty much unstoppable, it seems. They built the largest hospital in the US, and it may just be Philly’s largest (square-footage-wise) structure? All this while they’ve been attacked for not living up to PILOT’s (payments in lieu of taxes). They finally gave some good money to the School District of Philadelphia not long ago…spent good money bragging about doing that, too. I look out there in places like CA, and how hard it must be to do what I did for several years supporting higher ed, when you can’t even own property in certain places, or schools build these faculty residence hubs…that’s nice, though, that’s kinda your fault, too?
Personally, save the planet. Cure cancer. If you’re honestly doing that good for people; like, really trying and not just pushing out bs research for publication-sake or just trying to build up patents so you can sit on them and get rich, we’re good. That’s a gross oversimplification, I know, but…I’ve seen how the sausage’s been made at some of these places…I’m often less impressed than more.
RE: Is the AAU really needed??? - TexasCat - 04-24-2022 06:12 PM
These threads are so funny because it’s always someone trying to say that because they think the AAU is elitist it should be abolished. Universities can and do form whatever associations they want - why are you getting so twisted about it? If you think the AAU is overrated or whatever else that’s totally valid - go shout that from the rooftops. Like should organizations like this exist? Maybe not, but it has a function for its members, it takes a track record of excellent research to be in the running, and railing on about how exclusive it is doesn’t change that.