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Lindenwood up next for OVC - arkstfan - 02-10-2022 07:52 PM
Located in St Charles, Mo just outside St Louis.
Fun fact. Town was originally Les Petites Côtes, the Little Hills
RE: Lindenwood up next for OVC - mjs - 02-10-2022 08:14 PM
(02-10-2022 07:52 PM)arkstfan Wrote: Located in St Charles, Mo just outside St Louis.
Fun fact. Town was originally Les Petites Côtes, the Little Hills
Sounds good. Pretty easy drive or short, direct flight. They also have football which helps the OVC in keeping football. Certainly in the conference "footprint".
Arkstfan, have you heard any more about UAPB?
RE: Lindenwood up next for OVC - arkstfan - 02-11-2022 02:29 PM
Just keep seeing that OVC wants them.
Tough situation for UAPB. Fans seem to be happy with SWAC but they are a serious after thought in the league and not getting called on for any of the lucrative classics and the spotlight games in hoops.
RE: Lindenwood up next for OVC - mjs - 02-11-2022 02:46 PM
(02-11-2022 02:29 PM)arkstfan Wrote: Just keep seeing that OVC wants them.
Tough situation for UAPB. Fans seem to be happy with SWAC but they are a serious after thought in the league and not getting called on for any of the lucrative classics and the spotlight games in hoops.
But what benefit do you think they would get by moving to the OVC?
RE: Lindenwood up next for OVC - PTJR - 02-11-2022 02:47 PM
(02-11-2022 02:29 PM)arkstfan Wrote: Just keep seeing that OVC wants them.
Tough situation for UAPB. Fans seem to be happy with SWAC but they are a serious after thought in the league and not getting called on for any of the lucrative classics and the spotlight games in hoops.
As you said, the fans seem to be happy in the SWAC, and that’s what counts! And even though you consider them an after thought, and they don’t get asked to be in any of the big classics, they certainly wouldn’t be any better off in another league on either of those fronts.
RE: Lindenwood up next for OVC - arkstfan - 02-12-2022 01:52 AM
(02-11-2022 02:46 PM)mjs Wrote:(02-11-2022 02:29 PM)arkstfan Wrote: Just keep seeing that OVC wants them.
Tough situation for UAPB. Fans seem to be happy with SWAC but they are a serious after thought in the league and not getting called on for any of the lucrative classics and the spotlight games in hoops.
But what benefit do you think they would get by moving to the OVC?
UAPB is struggling with enrollment and that is going to get worse with the looming demographic cliff. They are an HBCU in a southern state with a relatively small Black population. They are located in a city losing population faster than all but one city in the US.
They have the upside of being a land-grant college. Rebranding to emphasize that and seeking to diversify the student population may be critical to survival as an institution. I mean the state and UA System will plug in more to keep them afloat than anyone not named UAF but they are going to face serious issues if they can’t get something going.
Tennessee State has had success by opting to be in the OVC instead of the MEAC or SWAC. They were the oddball for a long time but Hampton and North Carolina A&T are now following that path joining the Big South
RE: Lindenwood up next for OVC - PTJR - 02-12-2022 08:52 AM
(02-12-2022 01:52 AM)arkstfan Wrote:(02-11-2022 02:46 PM)mjs Wrote:(02-11-2022 02:29 PM)arkstfan Wrote: Just keep seeing that OVC wants them.
Tough situation for UAPB. Fans seem to be happy with SWAC but they are a serious after thought in the league and not getting called on for any of the lucrative classics and the spotlight games in hoops.
But what benefit do you think they would get by moving to the OVC?
UAPB is struggling with enrollment and that is going to get worse with the looming demographic cliff. They are an HBCU in a southern state with a relatively small Black population. They are located in a city losing population faster than all but one city in the US.
They have the upside of being a land-grant college. Rebranding to emphasize that and seeking to diversify the student population may be critical to survival as an institution. I mean the state and UA System will plug in more to keep them afloat than anyone not named UAF but they are going to face serious issues if they can’t get something going.
Tennessee State has had success by opting to be in the OVC instead of the MEAC or SWAC. They were the oddball for a long time but Hampton and North Carolina A&T are now following that path joining the Big South
There are some very basic differences between UAPB and the other examples you cited. Tennessee State, located in Nashville, opted to be in the OVC many years ago, and is a great geographic fit with the OVC. UAPB is not. Hampton and NC A&T left the MEAC very recently primarily due to the instability of the MEAC, but are both also great geographic fits with the Big South.
I take no issue with your statements about UAPB needing to diversify its student population, etc., or that the City of Pine Bluff is continuing its decline of the past 70 years or so. But UAPB joining the OVC wouldn’t have any substantial impact on either front, and their alumni wouldn’t buy into it either. And there is just no way UAPB gives up on being a HBU.
RE: Lindenwood up next for OVC - MICHAELSPAPPY - 02-12-2022 08:59 AM
(02-12-2022 08:52 AM)PTJR Wrote: And there is just no way UAPB gives up on being a HBU.
I think that is the single biggest factor.
RE: Lindenwood up next for OVC - mjs - 02-12-2022 09:38 AM
(02-12-2022 01:52 AM)arkstfan Wrote:(02-11-2022 02:46 PM)mjs Wrote:(02-11-2022 02:29 PM)arkstfan Wrote: Just keep seeing that OVC wants them.
Tough situation for UAPB. Fans seem to be happy with SWAC but they are a serious after thought in the league and not getting called on for any of the lucrative classics and the spotlight games in hoops.
But what benefit do you think they would get by moving to the OVC?
UAPB is struggling with enrollment and that is going to get worse with the looming demographic cliff. They are an HBCU in a southern state with a relatively small Black population. They are located in a city losing population faster than all but one city in the US.
They have the upside of being a land-grant college. Rebranding to emphasize that and seeking to diversify the student population may be critical to survival as an institution. I mean the state and UA System will plug in more to keep them afloat than anyone not named UAF but they are going to face serious issues if they can’t get something going.
Tennessee State has had success by opting to be in the OVC instead of the MEAC or SWAC. They were the oddball for a long time but Hampton and North Carolina A&T are now following that path joining the Big South
Thanks for your response. Sometimes when things are not working a "radical" change is what is needed. Their enrollment will obviously continue to decline unless they start doing things differently. I don't know if this would be the right move or not, but it would certainly garner some attention and get their name out to a bunch of new markets.
RE: Lindenwood up next for OVC - mjs - 02-12-2022 09:43 AM
I've now seen a couple of mentions regarding Lindenwood's move. Nothing official but it looks like it is likely to happen. It's good to see that the OVC had a plan to deal with the recent defections and keep the league viable. Both Lindenwood and USI are within a 6-hour drive of Little Rock which fits our administration's goal of being in a geographically compact conference. Interesting to see what comes next.
RE: Lindenwood up next for OVC - MICHAELSPAPPY - 02-12-2022 10:38 AM
The crying shame of all this is that probably the Power Conferences are going to bully the NCAA into creating a Super Division pretty soon, and all the rest of us will effectively be Division I asterisk. Then all the maneuvering that schools have done to become Division I will basically amount to very little.
RE: Lindenwood up next for OVC - mjs - 02-12-2022 11:12 AM
(02-12-2022 10:38 AM)MICHAELSPAPPY Wrote: The crying shame of all this is that probably the Power Conferences are going to bully the NCAA into creating a Super Division pretty soon, and all the rest of us will effectively be Division I asterisk. Then all the maneuvering that schools have done to become Division I will basically amount to very little.
The only issue that I care about is the NCAA tournament. We know the major programs are in a "different" league than us, due to many factors (mostly money), so why not make it official. However, if they take the David vs. Goliath factor out of the NCAA tournament, I will lose all interest as will millions of other folks who love that aspect of the tournament. I have no interest in P5 games now, why would I care if those are the only teams in the NCAA tournament?
RE: Lindenwood up next for OVC - PTJR - 02-12-2022 11:34 AM
(02-12-2022 11:12 AM)mjs Wrote:(02-12-2022 10:38 AM)MICHAELSPAPPY Wrote: The crying shame of all this is that probably the Power Conferences are going to bully the NCAA into creating a Super Division pretty soon, and all the rest of us will effectively be Division I asterisk. Then all the maneuvering that schools have done to become Division I will basically amount to very little.
The only issue that I care about is the NCAA tournament. We know the major programs are in a "different" league than us, due to many factors (mostly money), so why not make it official. However, if they take the David vs. Goliath factor out of the NCAA tournament, I will lose all interest as will millions of other folks who love that aspect of the tournament. I have no interest in P5 games now, why would I care if those are the only teams in the NCAA tournament?
They aren’t stupid enough to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. They may expand the tournament to get even more Power Teams in, but they like having the David vs Goliath in the first round, and most of the really big dogs don’t mind a usually easier first round game either.
RE: Lindenwood up next for OVC - MICHAELSPAPPY - 02-12-2022 11:44 AM
It is interesting to me that there have been a few schools who have moved down from D1 to lower levels. I would assume it has something to do with expenses.
A year ago my son-in-law and grandkids watched the final day of the softball tournament of one of the NAIA conferences in Louisiana. It was as much fun as anything I have ever done in D1. And a whole lot simpler. And a whole lot cheaper. I am getting revved up to watch a bunch of baseball and softball at Ozarks and UAFS this spring. Admission to outdoor sports is free.
RE: Lindenwood up next for OVC - MICHAELSPAPPY - 02-12-2022 11:50 AM
It seems to me that the biggest question in any conference affiliation choice is, "Can we be competitive, at least most years?" If you are a half-notch too high, then occasionally you are going to be competitive; but two notches too high means that you are going to be a kick-dog in most sports most of the time. That is why I think the OVC is a much better fit for us than the Belt, that and the fact that we would always be a non-factor among schools who only care about football. And I haven't looked at the maps, but I would assume that travel costs will be much less in the OVC.
RE: Lindenwood up next for OVC - MICHAELSPAPPY - 02-12-2022 11:54 AM
I couldn't find a map of the Belt, but looking at this one of the OVC, I would guess that travel costs would be significantly less for us going forward.
http://ovcsports.com/sports/2012/6/14/GEN_0614121029.aspx
RE: Lindenwood up next for OVC - mjs - 02-12-2022 01:21 PM
(02-12-2022 11:50 AM)MICHAELSPAPPY Wrote: It seems to me that the biggest question in any conference affiliation choice is, "Can we be competitive, at least most years?" If you are a half-notch too high, then occasionally you are going to be competitive; but two notches too high means that you are going to be a kick-dog in most sports most of the time. That is why I think the OVC is a much better fit for us than the Belt, that and the fact that we would always be a non-factor among schools who only care about football. And I haven't looked at the maps, but I would assume that travel costs will be much less in the OVC.
I am starting to like the idea of being in a conference where I think we can challenge for championships on a regular basis. Depending on who else they add, I also like the geography of the conference where I can travel, quite easily, to just about every conference game if I chose to. Morehead State is quite a haul, but very near to my grandkids in Lexington, KY.
RE: Lindenwood up next for OVC - arkstfan - 02-12-2022 10:26 PM
(02-12-2022 09:38 AM)mjs Wrote:(02-12-2022 01:52 AM)arkstfan Wrote:(02-11-2022 02:46 PM)mjs Wrote:(02-11-2022 02:29 PM)arkstfan Wrote: Just keep seeing that OVC wants them.
Tough situation for UAPB. Fans seem to be happy with SWAC but they are a serious after thought in the league and not getting called on for any of the lucrative classics and the spotlight games in hoops.
But what benefit do you think they would get by moving to the OVC?
UAPB is struggling with enrollment and that is going to get worse with the looming demographic cliff. They are an HBCU in a southern state with a relatively small Black population. They are located in a city losing population faster than all but one city in the US.
They have the upside of being a land-grant college. Rebranding to emphasize that and seeking to diversify the student population may be critical to survival as an institution. I mean the state and UA System will plug in more to keep them afloat than anyone not named UAF but they are going to face serious issues if they can’t get something going.
Tennessee State has had success by opting to be in the OVC instead of the MEAC or SWAC. They were the oddball for a long time but Hampton and North Carolina A&T are now following that path joining the Big South
Thanks for your response. Sometimes when things are not working a "radical" change is what is needed. Their enrollment will obviously continue to decline unless they start doing things differently. I don't know if this would be the right move or not, but it would certainly garner some attention and get their name out to a bunch of new markets.
I think UAPB is in a pickle.
I don’t think they can afford to spend what it’d take to be a competitive member of the OVC. I don’t think they can realistically afford to be very competitive in the SWAC. They are supposedly down to around 2500 students.
If they wanted my advice (no shock that they don’t) I would tell them the idea of being in a “white” conference to rebrand isn’t going to do much dent the perceptions and suddenly draw students. TSU has done well because they have hit the role of degree completion, certification programs, and masters programs in big metro on the upswing. NCA&T is doing similar in the smaller but vibrant Greensboro market and has developed a reputation as a quality academic institution that is affordable. They have a good rating with US News. Hampton is located in a big metro that is doing well and is very well regarded academically.
UAPB doesn’t have the same circumstances.
I’d be on the phone to the SIAC. Division II is far more affordable and in line with enrollment.
They can continue the HBCU traditions with regional schools. If they wanted SIAC and the SIAC took them they’d be in the west division with:
Central State 680 miles
Kentucky State 560 miles
Lane College 230 miles
LeMoyne-Owen 145 miles
Miles College 380 miles
Spring Hill 400 miles
Tuskegee 510 miles
Got a whole state full of potential non-conference opponents across the various sports.
RE: Lindenwood up next for OVC - MICHAELSPAPPY - 02-13-2022 09:42 AM
(02-12-2022 08:59 AM)MICHAELSPAPPY Wrote:(02-12-2022 08:52 AM)PTJR Wrote: And there is just no way UAPB gives up on being a HBU.
I think that is the single biggest factor.
But interestingly, on the sports front, UAPB already has greatly diversified the face of its program. Depending on the sport, they have about as many white and Latino athletes as they do black. I have no idea what is happening in the overall student population.
RE: Lindenwood up next for OVC - mjs - 02-13-2022 10:55 AM
(02-13-2022 09:42 AM)MICHAELSPAPPY Wrote:(02-12-2022 08:59 AM)MICHAELSPAPPY Wrote:(02-12-2022 08:52 AM)PTJR Wrote: And there is just no way UAPB gives up on being a HBU.
I think that is the single biggest factor.
But interestingly, on the sports front, UAPB already has greatly diversified the face of its program. Depending on the sport, they have about as many white and Latino athletes as they do black. I have no idea what is happening in the overall student population.
I saw on one site that it was around 2500 black and a little over 100 white.