(05-12-2021 08:38 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(05-12-2021 08:31 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(05-11-2021 12:03 PM)OdinFrigg Wrote:  

(05-05-2021 10:57 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(05-05-2021 07:01 PM)ken d Wrote:  I imagine there are many college football fans who view Notre Dame's preference for independence as evidence of selfishness, and not in the best interests of the sport. But Michigan's motives for being in a conference - the Big Ten - or Alabama's for being in the SEC shouldn't be considered altruistic. They made their decision initially, and continue to affirm it today, because it serves their selfish interests. And their success over the years validates that theirs were good decisions.

I'm not at all sure that either of those schools would have had as much success until now had they chosen independence, and I doubt they would continue to have that success if they tried to operate as a football independent in the future. By the same token, Notre Dame might not have enjoyed the success it has if it had joined a conference a century ago, and might not maintain their success if they were to join a conference today.

We may never know. But I don't question their right, and their leaders' obligation, to act in the best interest of Notre Dame, both as a football program and a Catholic university. If their decision is inconvenient for other schools' ambitions, so be it.

Most of my posts on this site and others for years are an attempt to counter misconceptions and just plain wrong statements and beliefs about ND as illustrated by your first line.

ND, like every other school, acts in its own best self interest.

The only difference is for most other schools, that self interest is seen as best advanced by football conference membership.

ND, on the other hand, thinks differently, that its self interests are best served by football independence.

If Alabama or Ohio State thought it in their best interests to leave their conferences and be independent, they would do so.

Think not? There is a groundswell recently about the top draw schools making more money than others in their conference, a more "eat what you kill" attitude.

That idea was seen as heresy by most fans ten or fifteen years ago. Now, with money tight....not so much.

There are valid historical reasons why ND is a football independent, reasons unique to ND.

This is a fact that many fans of other schools tend to not know or ignore in favor of "arrogance" or "greedy" (although that idea has largely died in recent years since every P5 school now makes more TV money than ND).

I don't fault Notre Dame for their choice of independence in football. That said, their existence as a football independent at an elite level is not without external enabling. It is fair to say Notre Dame has commanded that by history, tradition, popularity, skillful negotiating, and savvy decision-making.
The old Big East, The Big Ten, Southern Cal, Stanford, NBC, the ACC, the former BCS and current P5 governance structures including all the major commissioners, etc., have all enabled Notre Dame's independence in football. When Notre Dame sits at the table with the commissioners of the BIG, SEC, ACC, B12, and PAC 12, with an equivalent vote and being an equal decider, that's quite accommodating. Notre Dame is not representing independents beyond themselves.

All true.

ND would hot be where it is and wield the power it does if all of the power brokers did not want it to be so.

That is real power, is it not, to have all others with power want you to have power?

ND has never claimed to represent any other football independents.

That is their job.

Except that their power is derived from network desires, not those of their peers.

(05-13-2021 07:03 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(05-12-2021 08:38 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(05-12-2021 08:31 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(05-11-2021 12:03 PM)OdinFrigg Wrote:  

(05-05-2021 10:57 PM)TerryD Wrote:  Most of my posts on this site and others for years are an attempt to counter misconceptions and just plain wrong statements and beliefs about ND as illustrated by your first line.

ND, like every other school, acts in its own best self interest.

The only difference is for most other schools, that self interest is seen as best advanced by football conference membership.

ND, on the other hand, thinks differently, that its self interests are best served by football independence.

If Alabama or Ohio State thought it in their best interests to leave their conferences and be independent, they would do so.

Think not? There is a groundswell recently about the top draw schools making more money than others in their conference, a more "eat what you kill" attitude.

That idea was seen as heresy by most fans ten or fifteen years ago. Now, with money tight....not so much.

There are valid historical reasons why ND is a football independent, reasons unique to ND.

This is a fact that many fans of other schools tend to not know or ignore in favor of "arrogance" or "greedy" (although that idea has largely died in recent years since every P5 school now makes more TV money than ND).

I don't fault Notre Dame for their choice of independence in football. That said, their existence as a football independent at an elite level is not without external enabling. It is fair to say Notre Dame has commanded that by history, tradition, popularity, skillful negotiating, and savvy decision-making.
The old Big East, The Big Ten, Southern Cal, Stanford, NBC, the ACC, the former BCS and current P5 governance structures including all the major commissioners, etc., have all enabled Notre Dame's independence in football. When Notre Dame sits at the table with the commissioners of the BIG, SEC, ACC, B12, and PAC 12, with an equivalent vote and being an equal decider, that's quite accommodating. Notre Dame is not representing independents beyond themselves.

All true.

ND would hot be where it is and wield the power it does if all of the power brokers did not want it to be so.

That is real power, is it not, to have all others with power want you to have power?

ND has never claimed to represent any other football independents.

That is their job.

Except that their power is derived from network desires, not those of their peers.

And conference commissioners and college presidents.

Otherwise, it would not be so.

P.S. You have posted on numerous occasions that the only real power in college football are the networks, have you not?

If so, its a good world to be in when the networks love you and want you to have power and influence, no?

(05-13-2021 12:00 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(05-13-2021 07:03 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(05-12-2021 08:38 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(05-12-2021 08:31 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(05-11-2021 12:03 PM)OdinFrigg Wrote:  I don't fault Notre Dame for their choice of independence in football. That said, their existence as a football independent at an elite level is not without external enabling. It is fair to say Notre Dame has commanded that by history, tradition, popularity, skillful negotiating, and savvy decision-making.
The old Big East, The Big Ten, Southern Cal, Stanford, NBC, the ACC, the former BCS and current P5 governance structures including all the major commissioners, etc., have all enabled Notre Dame's independence in football. When Notre Dame sits at the table with the commissioners of the BIG, SEC, ACC, B12, and PAC 12, with an equivalent vote and being an equal decider, that's quite accommodating. Notre Dame is not representing independents beyond themselves.

All true.

ND would hot be where it is and wield the power it does if all of the power brokers did not want it to be so.

That is real power, is it not, to have all others with power want you to have power?

ND has never claimed to represent any other football independents.

That is their job.

Except that their power is derived from network desires, not those of their peers.

And conference commissioners and college presidents.

Otherwise, it would not be so.

P.S. You have posted on numerous occasions that the only real power in college football are the networks, have you not?

If so, its a good world to be in when the networks love you and want you to have power and influence, no?

1. Commissioners are sports rights contract attorneys. The would be neither hot or cold on Notre Dame.

2. Athletic directors would be a bit more guarded as to their status.

3. College presidents would only see another academic institution and most see sports as a backburner issue, appropriately.

4. Networks love any school which can deliver ratings. That is the largess that Notre Dame, Alabama, Ohio State, and Texas carry, and a few others when their team gets hot. They love Notre Dame because now it is the only brand that can rally interest in the Northeast as all past contenders of that region are fading brands, and Penn State still has a cloud obscuring the program.

That is why you have a seat at the table with the P5. Should athletics ever become separate to academics in governance then your status and disproportionate representation becomes more of an issue, but with the network (ESPN) backing the committee decisions for the P5 and essentially covering the selection committee you are fine for now.

(05-15-2021 08:37 PM)OdinFrigg Wrote:  

(05-13-2021 12:00 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(05-13-2021 07:03 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(05-12-2021 08:38 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(05-12-2021 08:31 PM)TerryD Wrote:  All true.

ND would hot be where it is and wield the power it does if all of the power brokers did not want it to be so.

That is real power, is it not, to have all others with power want you to have power?

ND has never claimed to represent any other football independents.

That is their job.

Except that their power is derived from network desires, not those of their peers.

And conference commissioners and college presidents.

Otherwise, it would not be so.

P.S. You have posted on numerous occasions that the only real power in college football are the networks, have you not?

If so, its a good world to be in when the networks love you and want you to have power and influence, no?

1. Commissioners are sports rights contract attorneys. The would be neither hot or cold on Notre Dame.

2. Athletic directors would be a bit more guarded as to their status.

3. College presidents would only see another academic institution and most see sports as a backburner issue, appropriately.

4. Networks love any school which can deliver ratings. That is the largess that Notre Dame, Alabama, Ohio State, and Texas carry, and a few others when their team gets hot. They love Notre Dame because now it is the only brand that can rally interest in the Northeast as all past contenders of that region are fading brands, and Penn State still has a cloud obscuring the program.

That is why you have a seat at the table with the P5. Should athletics ever become separate to academics in governance then your status and disproportionate representation becomes more of an issue, but with the network (ESPN) backing the committee decisions for the P5 and essentially covering the selection committee you are fine for now.

If there ends up being 4X16, or 4X18, or 5x15 or however the set-up, in the effort to design equivalency in numbers, a symmetrical structure, reasonable pathways, and accommodation for all that satisfy the criteria, I don't see a convincing rationale to render an exception for one Independent. If such is a preferential must, then the ACC needs to relinquish their play-off spot to Notre Dame in the years subjective judgment determines ND is superior to the ACC conference champion. There, that's the special rule. Let's see how long the ACC accepts such.