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Gerrymandering in Maryland - solohawks - 04-09-2021 10:28 PM



It's OK when team blue does it though

RE: Gerrymandering in Maryland - bullet - 04-10-2021 08:12 AM

(04-09-2021 10:28 PM)solohawks Wrote:  

It's OK when team blue does it though

Looks almost as bad as the Dems 1990 Texas gerrymander. That one kept getting thrown out by the courts. I switched house districts 3 or 4 times in the 90s.

RE: Gerrymandering in Maryland - mptnstr@44 - 04-10-2021 08:59 AM

Both sides do this. I can't be too critical.
Gerrymandering should be outlawed to stop this nonsense.

RE: Gerrymandering in Maryland - TheOriginalBigApp - 04-10-2021 09:13 AM

they have a RINO for a Governor. He'll sign off on this without resistance.

RE: Gerrymandering in Maryland - Native Georgian - 04-10-2021 09:38 AM

(04-10-2021 08:12 AM)bullet Wrote:  Looks almost as bad as the Dems 1990 Texas gerrymander. That one kept getting thrown out by the courts. I switched house districts 3 or 4 times in the 90s.
Gerrymandering has been around for as long as there have been legislative districts.

But the Democrats’ partisan gerrymander in Texas/1990 marked an important new threshold. That was the first time that technology could yield politically-relevant data at the sub-precinct level of individual census tracts. Democrats took full advantage and came away with a 22-8 edge among the 30 congressional districts in the November 1992 elections, even though GOP candidates for US House got a majority of the vote, statewide.

It was that process which triggered Tom DeLay’s rage and he eventually orchestrated a pro-GOP gerrymander a decade later.

RE: Gerrymandering in Maryland - bullet - 04-10-2021 09:59 AM

(04-10-2021 09:38 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  
(04-10-2021 08:12 AM)bullet Wrote:  Looks almost as bad as the Dems 1990 Texas gerrymander. That one kept getting thrown out by the courts. I switched house districts 3 or 4 times in the 90s.
Gerrymandering has been around for as long as there have been legislative districts.

But the Democrats’ partisan gerrymander in Texas/1990 marked an important new threshold. That was the first time that technology could yield politically-relevant data at the sub-precinct level of individual census tracts. Democrats took full advantage and came away with a 22-8 edge among the 30 congressional districts in the November 1992 elections, even though GOP candidates for US House got a majority of the vote, statewide.

It was that process which triggered Tom DeLay’s rage and he eventually orchestrated a pro-GOP gerrymander a decade later.

Harris County (Houston) had to go from 600 to 1700 precincts to handle all the gerrymandering (a precinct needs to contain only people who have every single elective district the same).

RE: Gerrymandering in Maryland - solohawks - 04-10-2021 12:30 PM

(04-10-2021 08:59 AM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  Both sides do this. I can't be too critical.
Gerrymandering should be outlawed to stop this nonsense.

I think it's wrong too.

Called out the NC GOP for doing it

But with all the talk about voting rights in Georgia and gerrymandering favoring the GOP, this is a friendly reminder that Blue states have made it an art and you won't hear anything about it because it doesn't fit the narrative

RE: Gerrymandering in Maryland - Sactowndog - 04-10-2021 12:40 PM

(04-10-2021 08:59 AM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  Both sides do this. I can't be too critical.
Gerrymandering should be outlawed to stop this nonsense.

Exactly.

RE: Gerrymandering in Maryland - Sactowndog - 04-10-2021 12:43 PM

(04-10-2021 12:30 PM)solohawks Wrote:  
(04-10-2021 08:59 AM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  Both sides do this. I can't be too critical.
Gerrymandering should be outlawed to stop this nonsense.

I think it's wrong too.

Called out the NC GOP for doing it

But with all the talk about voting rights in Georgia and gerrymandering favoring the GOP, this is a friendly reminder that Blue states have made it an art and you won't hear anything about it because it doesn't fit the narrative

I’m not ever going to say Dems are blameless here but at least admit the voting rights Bill sitting in the Senate goes the right direction by outlawing the practice. It’s basically a means of trying to disenfranchise the vote.

RE: Gerrymandering in Maryland - bullet - 04-10-2021 01:19 PM

(04-10-2021 12:43 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(04-10-2021 12:30 PM)solohawks Wrote:  
(04-10-2021 08:59 AM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  Both sides do this. I can't be too critical.
Gerrymandering should be outlawed to stop this nonsense.

I think it's wrong too.

Called out the NC GOP for doing it

But with all the talk about voting rights in Georgia and gerrymandering favoring the GOP, this is a friendly reminder that Blue states have made it an art and you won't hear anything about it because it doesn't fit the narrative

I’m not ever going to say Dems are blameless here but at least admit the voting rights Bill sitting in the Senate goes the right direction by outlawing the practice. It’s basically a means of trying to disenfranchise the vote.

That bill would basically take it out of the political process and put it in a group not answerable to anyone that would be co-opted by the Democrats.

What is needed is to enforce laws like Texas has. They are supposed to draw compact districts that minimize the split of counties. That law is routinely ignored.

In a state like Nebraska and maybe Maine and New Hampshire you can have "non-partisan" groups drawing lines. It is simply not realistic in many of the larger states. There isn't the same tradition.

RE: Gerrymandering in Maryland - BobcatEngineer - 04-04-2022 03:19 PM

[Image: XVLcJ1v.jpg]

Maryland's new congressional districts. Seems a bit more reasonable.

RE: Gerrymandering in Maryland - Gamenole - 04-04-2022 04:25 PM

(04-10-2021 12:43 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(04-10-2021 12:30 PM)solohawks Wrote:  
(04-10-2021 08:59 AM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  Both sides do this. I can't be too critical.
Gerrymandering should be outlawed to stop this nonsense.

I think it's wrong too.

Called out the NC GOP for doing it

But with all the talk about voting rights in Georgia and gerrymandering favoring the GOP, this is a friendly reminder that Blue states have made it an art and you won't hear anything about it because it doesn't fit the narrative

I’m not ever going to say Dems are blameless here but at least admit the voting rights Bill sitting in the Senate goes the right direction by outlawing the practice. It’s basically a means of trying to disenfranchise the vote.

Neither side has clean hands when it comes to gerrymandering, or even lightly soiled hands. Both sides do it where they can, and honestly they both have to in order to keep up with the other party. The only way to end it fairly, without disadvantaging either party and thus their voters, is with federal legislation that ends it nationwide all at the same time.

I think we need a standard for map-drawing that requires some relation to the percentage of the vote the party got during the previous 10 year cycle, most if not all states with at least 3 districts should have at least 1 member from the minority (in their state) party. For example, Massachusetts has 9 House seats and every one is filled by a Democrat. Yet in 2020 every single one of those races that had a GOP candidate saw that candidate earn between 26-39% of the vote, throw in the 2 Democratic Senators and you probably have at least a solid 1/3 of Massachusetts residents with no voice in Washington. This would be good for states, as they would have still have some representation at the power table when the minority party (in their state) is in power.

States should also have to keep communities with similar interests together when possible, for example look what the GOP did in Tennessee this cycle. Nashville had been the core of the 5th District throughout the 20th & 21st centuries. Makes sense for the Nashville area to be represented by one member of Congress, it is the capital city and a growing area. But it had a nasty habit of sending Democrats to the House since 1875, so Tennessee has now split the city between 3 districts in their new map to ensure that a Republican will be elected.

RE: Gerrymandering in Maryland - GoodOwl - 04-04-2022 04:30 PM

(04-04-2022 03:19 PM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  [Image: XVLcJ1v.jpg]

Maryland's new congressional districts. Seems a bit more reasonable.

a bit more detail here: https://mgaleg.maryland.gov/Other/Redistricting/SB1012-CONGRESS/SB1012-webpage.pdf

RE: Gerrymandering in Maryland - Gamenole - 04-04-2022 08:12 PM

Governor Hogan signed the new map into law today -

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/04/04/redistricting-maryland-hogan-congressional-map-00022904

RE: Gerrymandering in Maryland - solohawks - 04-05-2022 06:34 AM

Maryland looks divided like a cold war Germany

East Maryland v West Maryland

RE: Gerrymandering in Maryland - Native Georgian - 04-05-2022 07:56 AM

(04-04-2022 04:25 PM)Gamenole Wrote:  Neither side has clean hands when it comes to gerrymandering, or even lightly soiled hands. Both sides do it where they can, and honestly they both have to in order to keep up with the other party. The only way to end it fairly, without disadvantaging either party and thus their voters, is with federal legislation that ends it nationwide all at the same time.
That’s true, so far as it goes. But try putting that into statutory language. How will this work? Who is trusted by both sides to draw the districts? What formula will be approved by both sides?

Quote:States should also have to keep communities with similar interests together when possible
Define “communities”. Define “similar”. Define “possible”. There is simply no non-partisan, non-political way to square the circle, so long as single-member districts are in use.

Quote:look what the GOP did in Tennessee this cycle. Nashville had been the core of the 5th District throughout the 20th & 21st centuries. Makes sense for the Nashville area to be represented by one member of Congress, it is the capital city and a growing area. But it had a nasty habit of sending Democrats to the House since 1875, so Tennessee has now split the city between 3 districts in their new map to ensure that a Republican will be elected.
Agreed on Tennessee. Chopping up Nashville 3x is not in the interests of Nashville, or really Tennessee overall, imho.

RE: Gerrymandering in Maryland - solohawks - 04-05-2022 09:02 AM

(04-05-2022 07:56 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  
Quote:States should also have to keep communities with similar interests together when possible
Define “communities”. Define “similar”. Define “possible”. There is simply no non-partisan, non-political way to square the circle, so long as single-member districts are in use.

Its not easy at all to codify gerrymandering

Example:

A town has to be divided into 2 districts

A N/S or NW to SE diagonal divide favors Dems

A E/W or NE to SW diagonal divide favors GOP


What is gerrymandering in a case like that?

RE: Gerrymandering in Maryland - bullet - 04-05-2022 11:30 AM

(04-04-2022 04:30 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  
(04-04-2022 03:19 PM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  [Image: XVLcJ1v.jpg]

Maryland's new congressional districts. Seems a bit more reasonable.

a bit more detail here: https://mgaleg.maryland.gov/Other/Redistricting/SB1012-CONGRESS/SB1012-webpage.pdf

Big improvement of 2010 map and first 2020 map.

Its gerrymandered, but in a rational way. Its really hard for the Dems to get to 8-0 in Maryland and not that hard to get to 7-1.

RE: Gerrymandering in Maryland - Gamenole - 04-05-2022 01:46 PM

(04-05-2022 07:56 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  
(04-04-2022 04:25 PM)Gamenole Wrote:  Neither side has clean hands when it comes to gerrymandering, or even lightly soiled hands. Both sides do it where they can, and honestly they both have to in order to keep up with the other party. The only way to end it fairly, without disadvantaging either party and thus their voters, is with federal legislation that ends it nationwide all at the same time.
That’s true, so far as it goes. But try putting that into statutory language. How will this work? Who is trusted by both sides to draw the districts? What formula will be approved by both sides?

Quote:States should also have to keep communities with similar interests together when possible
Define “communities”. Define “similar”. Define “possible”. There is simply no non-partisan, non-political way to square the circle, so long as single-member districts are in use.

Quote:look what the GOP did in Tennessee this cycle. Nashville had been the core of the 5th District throughout the 20th & 21st centuries. Makes sense for the Nashville area to be represented by one member of Congress, it is the capital city and a growing area. But it had a nasty habit of sending Democrats to the House since 1875, so Tennessee has now split the city between 3 districts in their new map to ensure that a Republican will be elected.
Agreed on Tennessee. Chopping up Nashville 3x is not in the interests of Nashville, or really Tennessee overall, imho.

(04-05-2022 09:02 AM)solohawks Wrote:  
(04-05-2022 07:56 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  
Quote:States should also have to keep communities with similar interests together when possible
Define “communities”. Define “similar”. Define “possible”. There is simply no non-partisan, non-political way to square the circle, so long as single-member districts are in use.

Its not easy at all to codify gerrymandering

Example:

A town has to be divided into 2 districts

A N/S or NW to SE diagonal divide favors Dems

A E/W or NE to SW diagonal divide favors GOP


What is gerrymandering in a case like that?

These are all great points, and it certainly wouldn't be easy to ban gerrymandering by statute without advantaging one side or the other. Independent commissions seem to work well in some states, but not in others (for example NY, where the legislature can just ignore the committee and pass their own map; or in Virginia where they just gave up and turned the job over to the state Supreme Court). A 4-4 partisan commission with 1 Independent to break ties doesn't work well to me, as the vast majority of Independents actually lean pretty strongly one way or the other. And a straight 4-4 partisan commission runs the risk of deadlock, and reinforces the 2 party monopoly.

Communities as a basis has some potential, but as Georgian pointed out there are lots of definitional pitfalls. Unless and until somebody figures out a way our best bet may be for state courts to step in as Maryland's just did, Western Maryland looks like a good example of a place where Democrats were trying to dilute the Republican vote in a rural area just like Republicans have done in TN and Utah by splitting up Nashville and Salt Lake City. As Bullet said, the new MD map looks much more reasonable than either the 2010 map or the first 2020 version.

It's easier to look at states with fewer districts, and you can see a couple of good/bad maps in Nebraska and New Mexico. Nebraska left most of Omaha in the 2nd District, keeping the city largely together and allowing a potentially swing seat there while the other 2 are deep red. In New Mexico Democrats went for broke to try and get an all-blue delegation, creating two weak blue districts and one stronger blue district in a state that really should have 1 Republican representative. Democrats should have taken the safe 2-1 advantage over the 3-0 gamble, years like 2022 for instance they may find themselves with only 1 seat while the Republicans get both of the swingy ones.

RE: Gerrymandering in Maryland - BobcatEngineer - 04-05-2022 02:04 PM

Western Maryland doesn't have enough population to warrant their own district.

West to east, it goes Garrett County (pop. 30,000), Allegany County (pop. 75,000), then Washington County (pop. 150,000). Therefore they were lumped in with my county (Frederick), which is the next county eastward.

Frederick two decades ago used to be pretty rural and conservative. It's grown by nearly 100,000 people since 2000, with a lot coming from the DC suburbs and elsewhere. This last election cycle was the first time Frederick County went from Red to Blue in decades.