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RE: Biden-Harris Administration - Rice93 - 05-17-2022 12:54 PM
(05-17-2022 12:29 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:(05-17-2022 11:33 AM)Rice93 Wrote:(05-17-2022 11:18 AM)tanqtonic Wrote: Considering the lack of equivalent concern for the direction of the crimes, and that probably only 250 or less murders have occurred between 2012 and 2021 years committed by 'white nationalists' (not excluding white nationalist on white nationalist murders, and not excluding white nationalist prison murders).....
93s concern about a 'growing [white attacking black] based on race' seems rather interesting to say the least.
By the way, ADL has a neat compendium on Violence and Extremism that I think might be good reading.
Out of the 250 above, there was seemingly no racial component in the murder by the extremist in addition to the adding in of both white on white murders by white nationalists, and the further component of prison murders.
I think I will check on the number of lightning deaths last year as I did the previous year when the 93 call to arms was the rampant racist cop killings of blacks. I dont think has changed much.
I believe my "call to arms" concerned believing black people who say that the experience police brutality in general.
From the ADL re: 2020
Quote:In 2020, domestic extremists killed at least 17 people in the United States, in 15 separate incidents. This represents a significant decrease from the 45 extremist-related murders documented in 2019 and the 54 murders of 2018; in fact, it is the lowest yearly total in ADL statistics since 2004, which saw only 14 extremist-related murders.
The main reason the number of extremist-related murders in 2020 is so low compared to most recent years is because of an absence of mass shooting sprees or other mass casualty attacks like the 2019 El Paso Walmart shooting or the 2018 synagogue shooting in Pittsburgh.
The low number of killings does not mean that extremists were less active overall in 2020. For example, ADL statistics record 16 right-wing extremist-related terrorist plots/attacks in 2020 (through November), an increase from the 13 documented in 2019. Similarly, ADL has documented more than 4,500 incidents of white supremacist propaganda distribution in the U.S. in 2020, compared to only 2,724 in 2019.
As has been the case for most of the past 30 years, the extremist-related murders of 2020 were overwhelmingly associated with right-wing extremists. All but one of the incidents documented (including 16 of the 17 murders) were tied to right-wing extremism; over half were linked to white supremacists. The remaining death was at the hands of a left-wing extremist. This past year was the second year in a row that no killings linked to domestic Islamist extremism occurred.
Five of the deaths of 2020 were at the hands of anti-government extremists, including two people killed by adherents of the new boogaloo movement.
And 2021:
Quote:In 2021, domestic extremists killed at least 29 people in the United States, in 19 separate incidents. This represents a modest increase from the 23 extremist-related murders documented in 2020 but is far lower than the number of murders committed in any of the five years prior (which ranged from 45 to 78).
The 2021 murder totals were low primarily because no high-casualty extremist-related shooting spree occurred this past year. Such sprees are the main contributor to high murder totals.
Most of the murders (26 of 29) were committed by right-wing extremists, which is usually the case. However, two killings were committed by Black nationalists and one by an Islamist extremist—the latter being the first such killing since 2018.
Most of the 2021 murders were committed by people associated with longstanding extremist movements, such as white supremacy and the sovereign citizen movement. However, 2021 continued the trend of recent years of seeing some murders from newer types of extremism, including QAnon adherents, people associated with the toxic masculinity subculture of the “manosphere” and anti-vaccination extremists.
White supremacists killed more people in 2021 than any other type of extremist, though not an outright majority, as is often the case. An in-depth look at white supremacist killings over the past 10 years demonstrates the dangers posed by alt right white supremacists and white supremacist prison gangs.
First, 29 murders is an amazingly low number to get your knickers in a wad. Second, you seem to have missed the subdivision —- it is 29 by right extremists.
I'll repeat what I posted above a bit ago:
"The point of my original post was not that white extremist violence is the worst problem facing America in 2022. It was pointing out that you guys seem to ignore the significant amount of right wing extremist murders/violence while treating Antifa as if they were Al-Queda."
Quote:Including prison gang murders, white on white murders, and non-ideology murders. Which even further dilutes the number you tut-tut to us about what you think is a serious problem.
Even including that to get to 29, you are talking about an amazingly small number nominally, and a correspondingly small number of total murders.
The crips and bloods probably kill 100x of this inclusive number, and probably 250x the numbers you tut tut about (killings based on ideology, not total killings by the group overall as you jump around above, mind you).
But yet you proselytize to us how the race based killings are such an urgent issue, when the numbers kind of shoot your urgency out from underneath you.
Again... "The point of my original post was not that white extremist violence is the worst problem facing America in 2022. It was pointing out that you guys seem to ignore the significant amount of right wing extremist murders/violence while treating Antifa as if they were Al-Queda."
Quote:
I do hope you understand the difference between ‘killings by’ and your subject of urgency of ‘killings because’. Which makes the really low numbers above even absurdly lower,
The issue seems that you and lad have swallowed the media and your leftist brethrens hyperbole about this being a national import crisis. It’s not. On top of it, the media supernovas at the Tops incident which you slurp up slavishly along with their breathless talks on race.
All the while you don’t seem aware in the slightest (nor surprisingly is the media) on the Waukesha black nationalist mass casualty event, nor on the black nationalist subway event of a little more than a month ago.
Amazing that.
Huh? I was aware of those incidents.
RE: Biden-Harris Administration - Hambone10 - 05-17-2022 01:06 PM
given that the above lists 26 of 29 murders being by right wing extremists, and we all know that far more than three white police alone were killed by left-wing extremists in 2021, it seems pretty obvious that whomever put those statistics together has an agenda and has used 'creative definitions' to taint the outcome.
The beginning of good dialogue is honesty... and the person creating that data is not being honest. They will CLAIM they are because they have chosen the definitions and presented the numbers according to those definitions, but the choice of definitions is what causes the dishonesty.
RE: Biden-Harris Administration - tanqtonic - 05-17-2022 01:07 PM
(05-17-2022 12:06 PM)Rice93 Wrote:(05-17-2022 12:03 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: 30-50 killed by dogs, and the number is increasing. I wonder if the dogs were motivated by AKC propaganda.
The point of my original post was not that white extremist violence is the worst problem facing America in 2022. It was pointing out that you guys seem to ignore the significant amount of right wing extremist murders/violence while treating Antifa as if they were Al-Queda.
29 murders among 20 - 30,000 is a "significant amount"? Seriously?
No one is 'ignoring' it as much as you are 'blowing it up' in scope.
But now I see we are back to you mixing and matching, and now using "murders/violence" when you previously said 'murders', and after you retreated from 'violence' to solely 'murder'.
If you want to compare, compare ideological based violence to ideological based violence. Antifa is a highly organized, and seeks out specific targets with violence -- lots of it. 200+ days of rioting in Portland alone, not to mention the rumbles that it has instigated in highly numerous jurisdictions on many multiple occasions.
You seek to equate that targeted ideological violence now with numbers that include numerous white on white violence, non-ideological based violence, and simply prison gang **** from people that hold a philosophical viewpoint.
If you were honest, you would compare ideological based violence to ideological based violence. But you do not.
What you do do is swallow the **** the media has spouted, and repeated it in the way that all your cohorts would be proud of you for saying.
When pressed, you change 'violence' to 'murder', and then change 'murder' to 'murder/violence'. Then you throw out numbers that include a vast majority of non-ideological violence, and then seemingly refuse to acknowledge that smorgasbord being proffered. When confronted with ideological black nationalist high casualty count event -- you say that you arent presently concerned.
Are WN good people? Dont know, seem rather scummy to me. This isnt a defense of their ideology nor of their actions in this respect. But what you have done is made a broad-based attempt to equate (actually make better) the very concentrated and very directed antifa violence with comparisons first to violence, then to murders. When denoting the very low numbers of murders *by* WNs, you then lump them all into the same boat as apparently all ideology based -- they arent. A small number and small amount of that even small amount of violence is ideology-driven.
A subset of 29 murders *by* members a group into a smaller number of murders *because* of their philosophy is the great step you seem to miss in your apples to bananas comparison.
But, as I noted earlier, to you it is always about race and racial justice. In this case, the objective numbers are incredibly small. Even smaller when you make the proper adjustment to compare numbers *because* a cause to other numbers *because* a cause.
You want to say that 7 or 8 or 10 murders a year is so much *worse* than the continued specific, directed, and explicitly targeted rioting and mayhem that follows Antifa like the cloud surrounding PigPen in the Peanuts strip? Got it.
RE: Biden-Harris Administration - RiceLad15 - 05-17-2022 01:24 PM
(05-17-2022 10:11 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:(05-17-2022 08:01 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote: What it does is it takes away the agency of the person who committed such a crime and portrays them as someone who was just compulsive and didn't make the conscious decision to ingest the gross bile of bigotry and then turn that hate outwards and take the lives of others.
I find it humorous that you fully attack an argument for 'taking away the agency' of an actor but previously stated unequivocally that "[i]f he had never heard of white nationalism, he wouldn’t have committed this crime."
There's no disconnect here, at all, unless you think one's personal agency is related to unique thoughts that are wholly self-generated.
In this instance, the killer used his agency to make the decision to harm these specific people, in this specific place. And he made this decision because of his personal beliefs, which were informed and influenced by white nationalist ideology.
The other argument presented was that he did this because he was sick, as if he couldn't control his own actions and was compelled to do this - you know, lacking in personal agency.
No, no, no - his manifesto made it clear he had thought this through. From how he was going to commit the heinous act, to why he was going to commit it. And the why was because he viewed himself as a white supremacist.
I just think we should have no problem pointing out that this guy was a self-described white nationalist who committed this atrocity to further that cause.
RE: Biden-Harris Administration - tanqtonic - 05-17-2022 01:27 PM
I suspect part of the issue is the media's selective reinforcement of issues.
In Tops Buffalo, the media engages racuously about the shooter's philosophy.
For Frank James, the media hardly touches he is a virulent black nationalist.
For the Waukesha driver, the media hardly touches that he is a virulent black nationalist.
In highlighting the first, the media also highlights what is, objectively, a lightning strike level event. So, the rabid among us, pick up the undertone that this objectively low number event is somehow 'Important to the nation' ®.
All the while squelching the opposite.
The end result of just highlighting to the extent that they do of the first action is 93s and lads tut tutting on the 'really important topic de jure' of the 'virulence plaguing our nation'.
When the objective numbers say otherwise.
To be clear, this is not a defense of the Tops shooter, or of his philosophy. The scumbucket should rot in hell. But the media seemingly goes out of their way to keep the fuse lit on the 'fierce moral urgency' button, all the while ignoring both the objective rarity of whatever comes out of the target of this 'fierce moral urgency', and at the same time tamping down on the opposite polarity of that 'fierce moral urgency' (Waukesha, and Frank James).
The end result is a bunch of fierce moral urgency warriors oblivious to the objective numbers, and decrying this humongous and urgent issue that has beset upon us (but apparently in only one direction, mind you).
RE: Biden-Harris Administration - Rice93 - 05-17-2022 01:34 PM
(05-17-2022 01:07 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:(05-17-2022 12:06 PM)Rice93 Wrote:(05-17-2022 12:03 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: 30-50 killed by dogs, and the number is increasing. I wonder if the dogs were motivated by AKC propaganda.
The point of my original post was not that white extremist violence is the worst problem facing America in 2022. It was pointing out that you guys seem to ignore the significant amount of right wing extremist murders/violence while treating Antifa as if they were Al-Queda.
29 murders among 20 - 30,000 is a "significant amount"? Seriously?
No one is 'ignoring' it as much as you are 'blowing it up' in scope.
But now I see we are back to you mixing and matching, and now using "murders/violence" when you previously said 'murders', and after you retreated from 'violence' to solely 'murder'.
Bro, I did that because if I said "murders" or "violence" by itself you would have jumped down my throat. The only way not to lose it to not play the game.
Quote:If you want to compare, compare ideological based violence to ideological based violence. Antifa is a highly organized, and seeks out specific targets with violence -- lots of it. 200+ days of rioting in Portland alone, not to mention the rumbles that it has instigated in highly numerous jurisdictions on many multiple occasions.
OK. You win. White Nationalistic violence is chill. No worries. bro.
Quote:You seek to equate that targeted ideological violence now with numbers that include numerous white on white violence, non-ideological based violence, and simply prison gang **** from people that hold a philosophical viewpoint.
I didn't seek anything. You referenced the ADL number so I looked them up and quoted what I found.
Quote:If you were honest, you would compare ideological based violence to ideological based violence. But you do not.
OK. You win. White Nationalistic violence is chill. No worries. bro.
Quote:What you do do is swallow the **** the media has spouted, and repeated it in the way that all your cohorts would be proud of you for saying.
When pressed, you change 'violence' to 'murder', and then change 'murder' to 'murder/violence'. Then you throw out numbers that include a vast majority of non-ideological violence, and then seemingly refuse to acknowledge that smorgasbord being proffered. When confronted with ideological black nationalist high casualty count event -- you say that you arent presently concerned.
I am aware of the two main instances of this. They are concerning.
Quote:Are WN good people? Dont know, seem rather scummy to me. This isnt a defense of their ideology nor of their actions in this respect. But what you have done is made a broad-based attempt to equate (actually make better) the very concentrated and very directed antifa violence with comparisons first to violence, then to murders. When denoting the very low numbers of murders *by* WNs, you then lump them all into the same boat as apparently all ideology based -- they arent. A small number and small amount of that even small amount of violence is ideology-driven.
OK. You win. White Nationalistic violence is chill. No worries. bro.
Quote:A subset of 29 murders *by* members a group into a smaller number of murders *because* of their philosophy is the great step you seem to miss in your apples to bananas comparison.
But, as I noted earlier, to you it is always about race and racial justice. In this case, the objective numbers are incredibly small. Even smaller when you make the proper adjustment to compare numbers *because* a cause to other numbers *because* a cause.
You want to say that 7 or 8 or 10 murders a year is so much *worse* than the continued specific, directed, and explicitly targeted rioting and mayhem that follows Antifa like the cloud surrounding PigPen in the Peanuts strip? Got it.
It's interesting that you guys downplay one so hard while being... ahem... quite interested in the other.
RE: Biden-Harris Administration - Frizzy Owl - 05-17-2022 02:00 PM
(05-17-2022 01:34 PM)Rice93 Wrote: It's interesting that you guys downplay one so hard while being... ahem... quite interested in the other.
And vice-versa. Why is it ok for you to downplay one while overemphasizing the other? I get that this issue is particularly concerning to you, but based on the numbers there's no call to label other people as being uncaring or minimalizing the issue just because they have a different opinion of what the order of priorities should be. You come in here on a high horse, full of criticism of those who don't share your degree of alarm about this issue relative to others. You'll ride out on your high horse, convinced you've accomplished something by proving to yourself how woke you are on this issue compared to us who think 29/30000 is not a large number.
And you still don't have a solution. You wrung your hands about this, deplored us for not caring... what should we do? You'll vote for politicians who will do nothing to actually address the problem while exploiting it for votes and photo-ops. Pardon my skepticism.
RE: Biden-Harris Administration - Frizzy Owl - 05-17-2022 02:13 PM
(05-17-2022 01:24 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: There's no disconnect here, at all, unless you think one's personal agency is related to unique thoughts that are wholly self-generated.Backwards cause and effect again. If you aren't even interested in understanding what forms these guys, you're definitely part of the problem - and very stubbornly determined to remain that.
In this instance, the killer used his agency to make the decision to harm these specific people, in this specific place. And he made this decision because of his personal beliefs, which were informed and influenced by white nationalist ideology.
Quote:The other argument presented was that he did this because he was sick, as if he couldn't control his own actions and was compelled to do this - you know, lacking in personal agency.Straw man. Nobody said he couldn't control his actions, but the one who came closest to saying that was you - you clearly stated that he was driven by white nationalist influences. Do you need me to provide the references to the posts where you typed that?
I say that he's (a) twisted, (b) he's responsible for what he did, © he acted alone. Which of those do you disagree with? Earlier you talked as though you don't believe (b) and do believe ©. Is he responsible or are "white nationalists influences" responsible?
You're trying to argue that "white nationalism" is to blame. I'm saying he's to blame.
Quote:I just think we should have no problem pointing out that this guy was a self-described white nationalist who committed this atrocity to further that cause.
I have a problem saying if if I don't believe it. I'm funny that way.
RE: Biden-Harris Administration - OptimisticOwl - 05-17-2022 02:51 PM
(05-17-2022 12:06 PM)Rice93 Wrote:(05-17-2022 12:03 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: 30-50 killed by dogs, and the number is increasing. I wonder if the dogs were motivated by AKC propaganda.
The point of my original post was not that white extremist violence is the worst problem facing America in 2022. It was pointing out that you guys seem to ignore the significant amount of right wing extremist murders/violence while treating Antifa as if they were Al-Queda.
I agree with every word of your post except the word "significant".
One could take the wording of your post, though, to indicate you think Antifa is being unfairly blamed.
RE: Biden-Harris Administration - RiceLad15 - 05-17-2022 02:58 PM
(05-17-2022 02:13 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:(05-17-2022 01:24 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: There's no disconnect here, at all, unless you think one's personal agency is related to unique thoughts that are wholly self-generated.Backwards cause and effect again. If you aren't even interested in understanding what forms these guys, you're definitely part of the problem - and very stubbornly determined to remain that.
In this instance, the killer used his agency to make the decision to harm these specific people, in this specific place. And he made this decision because of his personal beliefs, which were informed and influenced by white nationalist ideology.
What? I'm the one pointing to white nationalism as being what helped form this guy - you're the one avoiding white nationalism and its role in forming the killer.
You're equally stubborn in trying to stamp out any influence that white nationalist ideology had on this guy...
Seriously, get off your own high horse here about how enlightened you are.
Quote:Quote:The other argument presented was that he did this because he was sick, as if he couldn't control his own actions and was compelled to do this - you know, lacking in personal agency.Straw man. Nobody said he couldn't control his actions, but the one who came closest to saying that was you - you clearly stated that he was driven by white nationalist influences. Do you need me to provide the references to the posts where you typed that?
I say that he's (a) twisted, (b) he's responsible for what he did, © he acted alone. Which of those do you disagree with? Earlier you talked as though you don't believe (b) and do believe ©. Is he responsible or are "white nationalists influences" responsible?
You're trying to argue that "white nationalism" is to blame. I'm saying he's to blame.
Not a straw man - don't rely on a tired tactic to avoid a debate...
I argued that by focusing solely on him being "twisted" that you remove his agency, as if he was compelled to do this violence no matter his personal beliefs. It's not hard to follow.
I'm arguing that the white nationalist ideology was critical in him carrying out this act. He made the decision to commit this heinous act of violence because of his white nationalist beliefs - and his ramblings make that abundantly clear. That fact does not negate a, b, or c, but it explains this act. If it weren't for him believing that racist ****, we don't know what would have happened - perhaps he would have done the exact same thing or nothing at all.
My point is that ignoring white nationalism here ignores the major element of his motivations for committing this terroristic act.
And none of this has anything to do with him being part of a group - you picked that up somewhere and I don't know why.
Quote:Quote:I just think we should have no problem pointing out that this guy was a self-described white nationalist who committed this atrocity to further that cause.
I have a problem saying if if I don't believe it. I'm funny that way.
So you don't believe that the guy was a self-described white nationalist? Or you don't believe he was motivated to further white nationalist goals? Or both?
RE: Biden-Harris Administration - Frizzy Owl - 05-17-2022 03:02 PM
(05-17-2022 02:58 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:(05-17-2022 02:13 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:(05-17-2022 01:24 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: There's no disconnect here, at all, unless you think one's personal agency is related to unique thoughts that are wholly self-generated.Backwards cause and effect again. If you aren't even interested in understanding what forms these guys, you're definitely part of the problem - and very stubbornly determined to remain that.
In this instance, the killer used his agency to make the decision to harm these specific people, in this specific place. And he made this decision because of his personal beliefs, which were informed and influenced by white nationalist ideology.
What? I'm the one pointing to white nationalism as being what helped form this guy - you're the one avoiding white nationalism and its role in forming the killer.
You're equally stubborn in trying to stamp out any influence that white nationalist ideology had on this guy...
Seriously, get off your own high horse here about how enlightened you are.
Quote:Quote:The other argument presented was that he did this because he was sick, as if he couldn't control his own actions and was compelled to do this - you know, lacking in personal agency.Straw man. Nobody said he couldn't control his actions, but the one who came closest to saying that was you - you clearly stated that he was driven by white nationalist influences. Do you need me to provide the references to the posts where you typed that?
I say that he's (a) twisted, (b) he's responsible for what he did, © he acted alone. Which of those do you disagree with? Earlier you talked as though you don't believe (b) and do believe ©. Is he responsible or are "white nationalists influences" responsible?
You're trying to argue that "white nationalism" is to blame. I'm saying he's to blame.
Not a straw man - don't rely on a tired tactic to avoid a debate...
I argued that by focusing solely on him being "twisted" that you remove his agency, as if he was compelled to do this violence no matter his personal beliefs. It's not hard to follow.
I'm arguing that the white nationalist ideology was critical in him carrying out this act. He made the decision to commit this heinous act of violence because of his white nationalist beliefs - and his ramblings make that abundantly clear. That fact does not negate a, b, or c, but it explains this act. If it weren't for him believing that racist ****, we don't know what would have happened - perhaps he would have done the exact same thing or nothing at all.
My point is that ignoring white nationalism here ignores the major element of his motivations for committing this terroristic act.
And none of this has anything to do with him being part of a group - you picked that up somewhere and I don't know why.
Quote:Quote:I just think we should have no problem pointing out that this guy was a self-described white nationalist who committed this atrocity to further that cause.
I have a problem saying if if I don't believe it. I'm funny that way.
So you don't believe that the guy was a self-described white nationalist? Or you don't believe he was motivated to further white nationalist goals? Or both?
I have explained that - at length. You won't listen because you're on board with the media and politicians blaming "teh white nationalistz". You like the simplistic meme-based approach to complex issues - so be it.
RE: Biden-Harris Administration - tanqtonic - 05-17-2022 03:07 PM
(05-17-2022 03:02 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:(05-17-2022 02:58 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:(05-17-2022 02:13 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:(05-17-2022 01:24 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: There's no disconnect here, at all, unless you think one's personal agency is related to unique thoughts that are wholly self-generated.Backwards cause and effect again. If you aren't even interested in understanding what forms these guys, you're definitely part of the problem - and very stubbornly determined to remain that.
In this instance, the killer used his agency to make the decision to harm these specific people, in this specific place. And he made this decision because of his personal beliefs, which were informed and influenced by white nationalist ideology.
What? I'm the one pointing to white nationalism as being what helped form this guy - you're the one avoiding white nationalism and its role in forming the killer.
You're equally stubborn in trying to stamp out any influence that white nationalist ideology had on this guy...
Seriously, get off your own high horse here about how enlightened you are.
Quote:Quote:The other argument presented was that he did this because he was sick, as if he couldn't control his own actions and was compelled to do this - you know, lacking in personal agency.Straw man. Nobody said he couldn't control his actions, but the one who came closest to saying that was you - you clearly stated that he was driven by white nationalist influences. Do you need me to provide the references to the posts where you typed that?
I say that he's (a) twisted, (b) he's responsible for what he did, © he acted alone. Which of those do you disagree with? Earlier you talked as though you don't believe (b) and do believe ©. Is he responsible or are "white nationalists influences" responsible?
You're trying to argue that "white nationalism" is to blame. I'm saying he's to blame.
Not a straw man - don't rely on a tired tactic to avoid a debate...
I argued that by focusing solely on him being "twisted" that you remove his agency, as if he was compelled to do this violence no matter his personal beliefs. It's not hard to follow.
I'm arguing that the white nationalist ideology was critical in him carrying out this act. He made the decision to commit this heinous act of violence because of his white nationalist beliefs - and his ramblings make that abundantly clear. That fact does not negate a, b, or c, but it explains this act. If it weren't for him believing that racist ****, we don't know what would have happened - perhaps he would have done the exact same thing or nothing at all.
My point is that ignoring white nationalism here ignores the major element of his motivations for committing this terroristic act.
And none of this has anything to do with him being part of a group - you picked that up somewhere and I don't know why.
Quote:Quote:I just think we should have no problem pointing out that this guy was a self-described white nationalist who committed this atrocity to further that cause.
I have a problem saying if if I don't believe it. I'm funny that way.
So you don't believe that the guy was a self-described white nationalist? Or you don't believe he was motivated to further white nationalist goals? Or both?
I have explained that - at length. You won't listen because you're on board with the media and politicians blaming "teh white nationalistz". You like the simplistic meme-based approach to complex issues - so be it.
Interesting -- lad is typically all on board with the 'nuanced' stuff. Even the slightly nuanced (as in this case).
RE: Biden-Harris Administration - tanqtonic - 05-17-2022 03:22 PM
(05-17-2022 01:34 PM)Rice93 Wrote:(05-17-2022 01:07 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:(05-17-2022 12:06 PM)Rice93 Wrote:(05-17-2022 12:03 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: 30-50 killed by dogs, and the number is increasing. I wonder if the dogs were motivated by AKC propaganda.
The point of my original post was not that white extremist violence is the worst problem facing America in 2022. It was pointing out that you guys seem to ignore the significant amount of right wing extremist murders/violence while treating Antifa as if they were Al-Queda.
29 murders among 20 - 30,000 is a "significant amount"? Seriously?
No one is 'ignoring' it as much as you are 'blowing it up' in scope.
But now I see we are back to you mixing and matching, and now using "murders/violence" when you previously said 'murders', and after you retreated from 'violence' to solely 'murder'.
Bro, I did that because if I said "murders" or "violence" by itself you would have jumped down my throat. The only way not to lose it to not play the game.
Funny, you play that 'gotcha' ticket fairly frequently, now you ***** about it. I've seen you pull the same thing with OO on more than one occasion, where a singular word sticks in your craw and you have to do the bulldog shctick to get all the marrow outof the line. Now --- you dont like it. Interesting.
Quote:Quote:If you want to compare, compare ideological based violence to ideological based violence. Antifa is a highly organized, and seeks out specific targets with violence -- lots of it. 200+ days of rioting in Portland alone, not to mention the rumbles that it has instigated in highly numerous jurisdictions on many multiple occasions.
OK. You win. White Nationalistic violence is chill. No worries. bro.
Where did I say it is 'chill'? Bro. Cut the strawman ****.
Quote:Quote:You seek to equate that targeted ideological violence now with numbers that include numerous white on white violence, non-ideological based violence, and simply prison gang **** from people that hold a philosophical viewpoint.
I didn't seek anything. You referenced the ADL number so I looked them up and quoted what I found.
Without bothering to really look at them, I surmise.
Quote:Quote:If you were honest, you would compare ideological based violence to ideological based violence. But you do not.
OK. You win. White Nationalistic violence is chill. No worries. bro.
Where did I say it is 'chill'? Bro. I said you are comparing apples to oranges. But leave it to you to translate that to 'White Nationalistic violence is chill.'
Quote:Quote:What you do do is swallow the **** the media has spouted, and repeated it in the way that all your cohorts would be proud of you for saying.
When pressed, you change 'violence' to 'murder', and then change 'murder' to 'murder/violence'. Then you throw out numbers that include a vast majority of non-ideological violence, and then seemingly refuse to acknowledge that smorgasbord being proffered. When confronted with ideological black nationalist high casualty count event -- you say that you arent presently concerned.
I am aware of the two main instances of this. They are concerning.
Better than the previous 'it would concern me', which doesnt seem to be present tense.
Quote:Quote:Are WN good people? Dont know, seem rather scummy to me. This isnt a defense of their ideology nor of their actions in this respect. But what you have done is made a broad-based attempt to equate (actually make better) the very concentrated and very directed antifa violence with comparisons first to violence, then to murders. When denoting the very low numbers of murders *by* WNs, you then lump them all into the same boat as apparently all ideology based -- they arent. A small number and small amount of that even small amount of violence is ideology-driven.
OK. You win. White Nationalistic violence is chill. No worries. bro.
And a trifecta for a dumb as fing snot rhetorical retort. Bro. Not just a dumb as fing snot strawman, but the third one, and a third one in the same post.
Quote:Quote:A subset of 29 murders *by* members a group into a smaller number of murders *because* of their philosophy is the great step you seem to miss in your apples to bananas comparison.
But, as I noted earlier, to you it is always about race and racial justice. In this case, the objective numbers are incredibly small. Even smaller when you make the proper adjustment to compare numbers *because* a cause to other numbers *because* a cause.
You want to say that 7 or 8 or 10 murders a year is so much *worse* than the continued specific, directed, and explicitly targeted rioting and mayhem that follows Antifa like the cloud surrounding PigPen in the Peanuts strip? Got it.
It's interesting that you guys downplay one so hard while being... ahem... quite interested in the other.
More as downplaying *your* 'the sky is falling' schtick, had you bothered to actually read. Given your shallow 'white nationalist violence is chill' dumb*** trifecta, why am I not surprised at this misstatement here as well.
RE: Biden-Harris Administration - Hambone10 - 05-17-2022 03:28 PM
Antifa actors are infuenced by other antifa 'members'. "eff da police' actors are influenced by 'eff da police' 'members'. La Raza actors are influenced by other la raza 'members'. Parliament actors are influenced by other parliament 'members'. EVERYONE is to at least some degree a product of their environment, hence my comment about the various interactions I had with people...
I found that those that sought to be 'outside' of society were kept outside of society and those who sought to be part of it were generally made a part of it. Those who sought dissent found it. Those who sought kinship also found it.
Surprise, surprise.
RE: Biden-Harris Administration - OptimisticOwl - 05-17-2022 03:31 PM
What is a White Nationalist, anyway? Is he different from "white supremacist' or "white separatist"? I think there some, harumpf, nuances between the three terms.
I would think, from the term, a White Nationalist would be one who wants a nation of 100% white people. Not only no blacks, but also no hispanics, asians, etc.
A white Supremacist wants a nation where whites control everything.
A white separatist wants everything separate - oddly enough, exactly what black separatists want too.
RE: Biden-Harris Administration - Frizzy Owl - 05-17-2022 03:47 PM
(05-17-2022 03:31 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: What is a White Nationalist, anyway? Is he different from "white supremacist' or "white separatist"? I think there some, harumpf, nuances between the three terms.
I would think, from the term, a White Nationalist would be one who wants a nation of 100% white people. Not only no blacks, but also no hispanics, asians, etc.
A white Supremacist wants a nation where whites control everything.
A white separatist wants everything separate - oddly enough, exactly what black separatists want too.
On the other hand there are those that don't know what they want, or don't want anything. For example, people join prison gangs for protection and survival, not because they're true believers.
RE: Biden-Harris Administration - Hambone10 - 05-17-2022 03:48 PM
The media and left... or is that redundant?? Is falling ALL OVER itself to paint the coming elections to be about racism and white nationalism in an effort to deflect from the failed economic, environmental and international policies of this administration.
It's truly despicable that their solution to this nation's problems is to divide us.
I mean that quite seriously. It's despicable.
RE: Biden-Harris Administration - RiceLad15 - 05-17-2022 04:04 PM
(05-17-2022 03:07 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:(05-17-2022 03:02 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:(05-17-2022 02:58 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:(05-17-2022 02:13 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:(05-17-2022 01:24 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: There's no disconnect here, at all, unless you think one's personal agency is related to unique thoughts that are wholly self-generated.Backwards cause and effect again. If you aren't even interested in understanding what forms these guys, you're definitely part of the problem - and very stubbornly determined to remain that.
In this instance, the killer used his agency to make the decision to harm these specific people, in this specific place. And he made this decision because of his personal beliefs, which were informed and influenced by white nationalist ideology.
What? I'm the one pointing to white nationalism as being what helped form this guy - you're the one avoiding white nationalism and its role in forming the killer.
You're equally stubborn in trying to stamp out any influence that white nationalist ideology had on this guy...
Seriously, get off your own high horse here about how enlightened you are.
Quote:Quote:The other argument presented was that he did this because he was sick, as if he couldn't control his own actions and was compelled to do this - you know, lacking in personal agency.Straw man. Nobody said he couldn't control his actions, but the one who came closest to saying that was you - you clearly stated that he was driven by white nationalist influences. Do you need me to provide the references to the posts where you typed that?
I say that he's (a) twisted, (b) he's responsible for what he did, © he acted alone. Which of those do you disagree with? Earlier you talked as though you don't believe (b) and do believe ©. Is he responsible or are "white nationalists influences" responsible?
You're trying to argue that "white nationalism" is to blame. I'm saying he's to blame.
Not a straw man - don't rely on a tired tactic to avoid a debate...
I argued that by focusing solely on him being "twisted" that you remove his agency, as if he was compelled to do this violence no matter his personal beliefs. It's not hard to follow.
I'm arguing that the white nationalist ideology was critical in him carrying out this act. He made the decision to commit this heinous act of violence because of his white nationalist beliefs - and his ramblings make that abundantly clear. That fact does not negate a, b, or c, but it explains this act. If it weren't for him believing that racist ****, we don't know what would have happened - perhaps he would have done the exact same thing or nothing at all.
My point is that ignoring white nationalism here ignores the major element of his motivations for committing this terroristic act.
And none of this has anything to do with him being part of a group - you picked that up somewhere and I don't know why.
Quote:Quote:I just think we should have no problem pointing out that this guy was a self-described white nationalist who committed this atrocity to further that cause.
I have a problem saying if if I don't believe it. I'm funny that way.
So you don't believe that the guy was a self-described white nationalist? Or you don't believe he was motivated to further white nationalist goals? Or both?
I have explained that - at length. You won't listen because you're on board with the media and politicians blaming "teh white nationalistz". You like the simplistic meme-based approach to complex issues - so be it.
Interesting -- lad is typically all on board with the 'nuanced' stuff. Even the slightly nuanced (as in this case).
Don't listen to Frizzy's propaganda - he is twisting things to fit his personal agenda.
White nationalism was central to the shooter, unquestionably. Other issues were definitely at play - from isolation, to mental health, to toxic web forums. I've never claimed that white nationalism was the only issue at play, but I took issue with Frizzy arguing, as he does above, that it is not relevant or impactful.
RE: Biden-Harris Administration - Frizzy Owl - 05-17-2022 04:11 PM
(05-17-2022 04:04 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:(05-17-2022 03:07 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:(05-17-2022 03:02 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:(05-17-2022 02:58 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:(05-17-2022 02:13 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote: Backwards cause and effect again. If you aren't even interested in understanding what forms these guys, you're definitely part of the problem - and very stubbornly determined to remain that.
What? I'm the one pointing to white nationalism as being what helped form this guy - you're the one avoiding white nationalism and its role in forming the killer.
You're equally stubborn in trying to stamp out any influence that white nationalist ideology had on this guy...
Seriously, get off your own high horse here about how enlightened you are.
Quote:Straw man. Nobody said he couldn't control his actions, but the one who came closest to saying that was you - you clearly stated that he was driven by white nationalist influences. Do you need me to provide the references to the posts where you typed that?
I say that he's (a) twisted, (b) he's responsible for what he did, © he acted alone. Which of those do you disagree with? Earlier you talked as though you don't believe (b) and do believe ©. Is he responsible or are "white nationalists influences" responsible?
You're trying to argue that "white nationalism" is to blame. I'm saying he's to blame.
Not a straw man - don't rely on a tired tactic to avoid a debate...
I argued that by focusing solely on him being "twisted" that you remove his agency, as if he was compelled to do this violence no matter his personal beliefs. It's not hard to follow.
I'm arguing that the white nationalist ideology was critical in him carrying out this act. He made the decision to commit this heinous act of violence because of his white nationalist beliefs - and his ramblings make that abundantly clear. That fact does not negate a, b, or c, but it explains this act. If it weren't for him believing that racist ****, we don't know what would have happened - perhaps he would have done the exact same thing or nothing at all.
My point is that ignoring white nationalism here ignores the major element of his motivations for committing this terroristic act.
And none of this has anything to do with him being part of a group - you picked that up somewhere and I don't know why.
Quote:I have a problem saying if if I don't believe it. I'm funny that way.
So you don't believe that the guy was a self-described white nationalist? Or you don't believe he was motivated to further white nationalist goals? Or both?
I have explained that - at length. You won't listen because you're on board with the media and politicians blaming "teh white nationalistz". You like the simplistic meme-based approach to complex issues - so be it.
Interesting -- lad is typically all on board with the 'nuanced' stuff. Even the slightly nuanced (as in this case).
Don't listen to Frizzy's propaganda - he is twisting things to fit his personal agenda.
White nationalism was central to the shooter, unquestionably. Other issues were definitely at play - from isolation, to mental health, to toxic web forums. I've never claimed that white nationalism was the only issue at play, but I took issue with Frizzy arguing, as he does above, that it is not relevant or impactful.
Propaganda - LOL. I'm opposed to exploiting this event for political gain, and the guy who supports the people who are doing just that is labelling me the propagandist.
RE: Biden-Harris Administration - RiceLad15 - 05-17-2022 04:25 PM
(05-17-2022 04:11 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:(05-17-2022 04:04 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:(05-17-2022 03:07 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:(05-17-2022 03:02 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:(05-17-2022 02:58 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: What? I'm the one pointing to white nationalism as being what helped form this guy - you're the one avoiding white nationalism and its role in forming the killer.
You're equally stubborn in trying to stamp out any influence that white nationalist ideology had on this guy...
Seriously, get off your own high horse here about how enlightened you are.
Not a straw man - don't rely on a tired tactic to avoid a debate...
I argued that by focusing solely on him being "twisted" that you remove his agency, as if he was compelled to do this violence no matter his personal beliefs. It's not hard to follow.
I'm arguing that the white nationalist ideology was critical in him carrying out this act. He made the decision to commit this heinous act of violence because of his white nationalist beliefs - and his ramblings make that abundantly clear. That fact does not negate a, b, or c, but it explains this act. If it weren't for him believing that racist ****, we don't know what would have happened - perhaps he would have done the exact same thing or nothing at all.
My point is that ignoring white nationalism here ignores the major element of his motivations for committing this terroristic act.
And none of this has anything to do with him being part of a group - you picked that up somewhere and I don't know why.
So you don't believe that the guy was a self-described white nationalist? Or you don't believe he was motivated to further white nationalist goals? Or both?
I have explained that - at length. You won't listen because you're on board with the media and politicians blaming "teh white nationalistz". You like the simplistic meme-based approach to complex issues - so be it.
Interesting -- lad is typically all on board with the 'nuanced' stuff. Even the slightly nuanced (as in this case).
Don't listen to Frizzy's propaganda - he is twisting things to fit his personal agenda.
White nationalism was central to the shooter, unquestionably. Other issues were definitely at play - from isolation, to mental health, to toxic web forums. I've never claimed that white nationalism was the only issue at play, but I took issue with Frizzy arguing, as he does above, that it is not relevant or impactful.
Propaganda - LOL. I'm opposed to exploiting this event for political gain, and the guy who supports the people who are doing just that is labelling me the propagandist.
One can be opposed to exploiting this for political gain while living in reality and acknowledging that the guy was a white supremacist and that those beliefs were fundamental in the crime he commits.
Yet here you are, sticking your head in the sand and stubbornly refusing to recognize a painfully obvious truth about this horrific act.
I suppose you must not support any political group, because I don't see either set of politicians not trying to leverage this politically in some manner. But it must make you feel better to try and throw stones from a glass house.