(08-30-2021 09:44 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-30-2021 09:19 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  because the only way Biden would have been able to execute a "negotiated withdrawal" is if reneged on the Trump negotiations and then negotiated his own withdrawal...

I wish he had. He negated every other Trump action I can think of, but this one he not only ratified, but despite having half a year to do things right, he did them worse...much worse. The result is the most shameful event since ...forever.

I know you expect me to defend everything Trump did or said and attack everything Biden does or says. That is your mindset. But I did not like Trump negotiating with the Taliban. Nor do I like the idea of any President leaving Afghanistan without it being stable. I don't like the idea of releasing 5,000 prisoners, but that action did not result in American or allied deaths.

This is the most shameful incident I can think of. Lad says it is not, but refuses to offer up an alternative, or any reasoning behind his choice. It's almost as if he cannot stand his guy being dissed. But all this is opinion. Said so at the onset. Shouldn't need to, but I have dealt with Lad before, so I thought I would just skip the part where he asks for links to articles from left wing sources(NOT Fox). I did not get this opinion from anybody else. I formed it watching the news on multiple outlets and analyzing my feelings about it.

another day has dawned, and we are a day closer to Biden's self-imposed deadline, now imposed by the Taliban. We are a day closer to massacres in Afghanistan, watched serenely from the White House while Biden says it was all anticipated and in any case, not his fault. What a leader. The buck stops over there.

Despite the turmoil, death, and betrayals, some people will happy to watch the last troops load just hours before the Taliban's deadline. Biden and the Taliban, and ISIS-K and other Islamic terrorist organizations will be among them. I won't. Not sure about lad.

Yet I cannot think we would be any better off if he was 25ed. Harris has a big smile, but no substance.

What a fine mess you have gotten us into, DNC.

(08-30-2021 10:18 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-30-2021 09:44 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-30-2021 09:19 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  because the only way Biden would have been able to execute a "negotiated withdrawal" is if reneged on the Trump negotiations and then negotiated his own withdrawal...

I wish he had. He negated every other Trump action I can think of, but this one he not only ratified, but despite having half a year to do things right, he did them worse...much worse. The result is the most shameful event since ...forever.

I know you expect me to defend everything Trump did or said and attack everything Biden does or says. That is your mindset. But I did not like Trump negotiating with the Taliban. Nor do I like the idea of any President leaving Afghanistan without it being stable. I don't like the idea of releasing 5,000 prisoners, but that action did not result in American or allied deaths.

This is the most shameful incident I can think of. Lad says it is not, but refuses to offer up an alternative, or any reasoning behind his choice. It's almost as if he cannot stand his guy being dissed. But all this is opinion. Said so at the onset. Shouldn't need to, but I have dealt with Lad before, so I thought I would just skip the part where he asks for links to articles from left wing sources(NOT Fox). I did not get this opinion from anybody else. I formed it watching the news on multiple outlets and analyzing my feelings about it.

another day has dawned, and we are a day closer to Biden's self-imposed deadline, now imposed by the Taliban. We are a day closer to massacres in Afghanistan, watched serenely from the White House while Biden says it was all anticipated and in any case, not his fault. What a leader. The buck stops over there.

Despite the turmoil, death, and betrayals, some people will happy to watch the last troops load just hours before the Taliban's deadline. Biden and the Taliban, and ISIS-K and other Islamic terrorist organizations will be among them. I won't. Not sure about lad.

Yet I cannot think we would be any better off if he was 25ed. Harris has a big smile, but no substance.

What a fine mess you have gotten us into, DNC.

Can't stand his guy being dissed, but types this...

" Again, plenty of blame to be laid on Biden's shoulders for how sloppy, disorganized, and poorly executed the withdrawal has been. Or heck, even how his assessments of the situation were so far off."

edit: and seriously, this is not a mess of the DNC's making if you're talking about all of the issues surrounding a permanent withdrawal. That blame gets laid on the shoulders of W (started the war), Trump (started the withdrawal process), and Biden (executed the withdrawal process).

(08-30-2021 09:19 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-30-2021 08:10 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(08-30-2021 07:02 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-30-2021 12:17 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-29-2021 11:08 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  The reason I put Kabul over Saigon is because of who did it.

I put the abandonment of Afghanistan over the loss of Saigon because of the manner in which we were forced to leave - Saigon with enemy forces closing in and refugees under fire, and Kabul, leaving by appointment and with the permission of the enemy.

It's one thing to be forced out by enemies, and quite another to voluntarily abandon your own people.

Lad is entitled to his opinion on the most shameful incident in American history, and I wish I knew what that was. All we know for sure is that he does not think this debacle is number One. We certainly have plenty of things that were shameful, either at the time they happened, like now, or in hindsight, like the years of separate but equal.

Wait, I thought the issue was HOW the withdrawal was being executed in the field, not the fact that we were withdrawing.

You know that the Trump admin set this in motion, right? They negotiated with the Taliban and set a date for which we would withdrawal. And as part of that negotiation, they released some 5,000 Taliban prisoners.

How do you not then lay the blame also at the feet of the Trump admin, given that they planned to "leave by appointment and with the permission of the enemy?"

Perhaps you should dissect the concept of negotiated withdrawal as opposed to those like 'cut and run' before one does the above.

Not even going to tack on 13 dead servicemen in pursuit of a 9/11 photo op.

You post offers a false equivalence because the only way Biden would have been able to execute a "negotiated withdrawal" is if reneged on the Trump negotiations and then negotiated his own withdrawal...

Quote:It's not like Trump's deal left forces in place - it was to end with the complete withdrawal of forces from Afghanistan. Biden, for better or worse, kept with Trump's agreement, only differing in the speed of the withdrawal of all forces.

Quote:Maybe you mean a managed withdrawal vs a sloppy one? Again, plenty of blame to be laid on Biden's shoulders for how sloppy, disorganized, and poorly executed the withdrawal has been. Or heck, even how his assessments of the situation were so far off.

To George's point, perhaps it would have been better if he had reneged on the Trump deal and left forces in place.

(08-30-2021 09:19 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  To George's point, perhaps it would have been better if he had reneged on the Trump deal and left forces in place.

(08-05-2015 10:21 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  As usual, someone else said it better than I can:
"The terms which the Prime Minister brought back with him could easily have been agreed, I believe, through the ordinary diplomatic channels at any time during the summer. And I will say this, that I believe the Czechs, left to themselves and told they were going to get no help from the Western Powers, would have been able to make better terms than they have got after all this tremendous perturbation; they could hardly have had worse."
-- Winston Churchill, Oct. 5, 1938

(08-30-2021 10:18 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-30-2021 09:44 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-30-2021 09:19 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  because the only way Biden would have been able to execute a "negotiated withdrawal" is if reneged on the Trump negotiations and then negotiated his own withdrawal...

I wish he had. He negated every other Trump action I can think of, but this one he not only ratified, but despite having half a year to do things right, he did them worse...much worse. The result is the most shameful event since ...forever.

I know you expect me to defend everything Trump did or said and attack everything Biden does or says. That is your mindset. But I did not like Trump negotiating with the Taliban. Nor do I like the idea of any President leaving Afghanistan without it being stable. I don't like the idea of releasing 5,000 prisoners, but that action did not result in American or allied deaths.

This is the most shameful incident I can think of. Lad says it is not, but refuses to offer up an alternative, or any reasoning behind his choice. It's almost as if he cannot stand his guy being dissed. But all this is opinion. Said so at the onset. Shouldn't need to, but I have dealt with Lad before, so I thought I would just skip the part where he asks for links to articles from left wing sources(NOT Fox). I did not get this opinion from anybody else. I formed it watching the news on multiple outlets and analyzing my feelings about it.

another day has dawned, and we are a day closer to Biden's self-imposed deadline, now imposed by the Taliban. We are a day closer to massacres in Afghanistan, watched serenely from the White House while Biden says it was all anticipated and in any case, not his fault. What a leader. The buck stops over there.

Despite the turmoil, death, and betrayals, some people will happy to watch the last troops load just hours before the Taliban's deadline. Biden and the Taliban, and ISIS-K and other Islamic terrorist organizations will be among them. I won't. Not sure about lad.

Yet I cannot think we would be any better off if he was 25ed. Harris has a big smile, but no substance.

What a fine mess you have gotten us into, DNC.

Can't stand his guy being dissed, but types this...

" Again, plenty of blame to be laid on Biden's shoulders for how sloppy, disorganized, and poorly executed the withdrawal has been. Or heck, even how his assessments of the situation were so far off."

edit: and seriously, this is not a mess of the DNC's making if you're talking about all of the issues surrounding a permanent withdrawal. That blame gets laid on the shoulders of W (started the war), Trump (started the withdrawal process), and Biden (executed the withdrawal process).

Quote:What interest do we have in Afghanistan at this point with al Qaeda gone? We went to Afghanistan for the express purpose of getting rid of al Qaeda in Afghanistan, as well as — as well as getting Osama bin Laden.

Quote:"If there's American citizens left, we're gonna stay to get them all out."

(08-30-2021 04:55 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Happy Meal's objective on Aug 18 was to get "everyone" out, including Americans and our Afghan allies and their families.

Quote:"If there's American citizens left, we're gonna stay to get them all out."

A senior State Department official said today that there is still a number of Americans who are in Afghanistan. As the planes carrying the last of our troops went wheels up.

Got it, Happy Meal --- "we're gonna stay to get them all out."

I guess Happy Meal's definition of 'all' is the same gibberish of Clinton's "it depends on what 'is' is".

Heckuva job there Brownie -- kind of apropos this being both Ida and the anniversary of Katrina.

(08-30-2021 05:04 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Lad, you keep saying that this is not THE most shameful moment for America.

Does it make your top ten?

Quote:They knowingly and willingly left Americans at the airport gate within the last few hours. I and others worked hard and personally to get American troops to come to the gate or call their Taliban counterparts to let them in. TALIBAN WERE WILLING TO LET THEM IN.

(08-30-2021 05:51 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(08-30-2021 05:04 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Lad, you keep saying that this is not THE most shameful moment for America.

Does it make your top ten?

Im sure it wont. It really cant --- remember -- its HYPERBOLE!!!!!

I do like how lad stuffed his 'whadabout' list with all sorts of items that werent even in his 'time of being', let alone the magic age of cognizance about the real world.

Me? I dont remember '68. There is a very faint recollection of RFK and the train.

Fast forward to '72 and I absolutely remember Wallace being shot. And McGovern. And the bombing of N. Vietnam (family neighbor flew Phantoms and was killed over N. Vietnam.)

I remember in early '74 when a person who trained at Ft Bliss and we were friends of through church was KIA'd as an observer after the Paris Peace Accords.

Distinctly remember watching the choppers coming off the US embassy in Saigon and the pictures of helicopters being ditched. And of hearing the news that a captain in the S. Vietnamese air force that we host familied when he was in the States being executed.

(08-30-2021 06:40 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-30-2021 05:51 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(08-30-2021 05:04 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Lad, you keep saying that this is not THE most shameful moment for America.

Does it make your top ten?

Im sure it wont. It really cant --- remember -- its HYPERBOLE!!!!!

I do like how lad stuffed his 'whadabout' list with all sorts of items that werent even in his 'time of being', let alone the magic age of cognizance about the real world.

Me? I dont remember '68. There is a very faint recollection of RFK and the train.

Fast forward to '72 and I absolutely remember Wallace being shot. And McGovern. And the bombing of N. Vietnam (family neighbor flew Phantoms and was killed over N. Vietnam.)

I remember in early '74 when a person who trained at Ft Bliss and we were friends of through church was KIA'd as an observer after the Paris Peace Accords.

Distinctly remember watching the choppers coming off the US embassy in Saigon and the pictures of helicopters being ditched. And of hearing the news that a captain in the S. Vietnamese air force that we host familied when he was in the States being executed.

I found it odd that Lad brought up getting into Viet Nam. I did live through that era. I registered for the draft my first week at Rice.

(08-30-2021 08:00 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I found it odd that Lad brought up getting into Viet Nam. I did live through that era. I registered for the draft my first week at Rice.