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Southern Illinois - Edwardsville leaving MAC Soccer for MVC after 2020 season. - BruceMcF - 06-15-2020 11:33 AM
MEN’S SOCCER: SIUE returning to Missouri Valley Conference:
Quote:“It is exciting to get back to the Missouri Valley Conference for the program,” SIUE Head Coach Cale Wassermann said. “Soccer fans here at SIUE, in the Metro East, and in the St. Louis area are very familiar with the conference as well our MVC opponents which will make for some great rivalry matches and entertaining game environments.”
The Cougars have spent the past three seasons as an affiliate member of the Mid-American Conference, appearing all three seasons in the MAC Tournament. SIUE is slated to play its final MAC season in 2020.
This brings the MVC up from 5 to 6 and the MAC down from 6 to 5, consisting of four MAC schools (WMU [44], Akron [80], Bowling Green [86], Northern Illinois [107]) and affiliate WVU [53]. (In brackets are [2020 RPI ranking], of 206 NCAA Div I soccer schools.)
It is not obvious where the MAC would go for a sixth school. It might raid Howard [200] from the Sunbelt, which has also dropped down to five, since Morgantown to DC might appeal to affiliate WVU, though the Howard soccer team of the 21st century is nothing like the Howard soccer team of the 1970s and 80s and that would be a hit on the other member's RPI, as they are a hit on the Sunbelt soccer school's RPI at present.
It also might look to the Sunbelt Conference, also dropping down to 5 after a member (App State?) announced it is dropping soccer, for a merged conference, which might play an incomplete conference round robin but a double round robin in divisions.
RE: Southern Illinois leaving MAC Soccer for MVC after 2020 season. - IWokeUpLikeThis - 06-15-2020 03:14 PM
That's SIUE, not Southern Illinois (which is in Carbondale).
RE: Southern Illinois - Edwardsville leaving MAC Soccer for MVC after 2020 season. - BruceMcF - 06-15-2020 05:42 PM
(06-15-2020 03:14 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote: That's SIUE, not Southern Illinois (which is in Carbondale).Since they are skedaddling, they could just as well be Southern Illinois - Quincy, I'm more interested in what is happening to the MAC ...
... but I'll fix the title.
RE: Southern Illinois - Edwardsville leaving MAC Soccer for MVC after 2020 season. - Love and Honor - 06-15-2020 07:55 PM
SIUE actually has some potential to be a decent mid major athletic department as the only DI public school in St. Louis. Not anywhere close to the MAC but its something.
Wish Miami had men's soccer (and men's tennis plus wrestling) but all them went by the wayside from Title IX. Hockey plus football will do that to you.
RE: Southern Illinois - Edwardsville leaving MAC Soccer for MVC after 2020 season. - BruceMcF - 06-15-2020 09:08 PM
(06-15-2020 07:55 PM)Love and Honor Wrote: SIUE actually has some potential to be a decent mid major athletic department as the only DI public school in St. Louis. Not anywhere close to the MAC but its something.4 hours to Northern Illinois (5 hours to Ball State & 5.5hrs to Miami, but they don't play soccer) make it not all that far "from" the MAC. But one presumes that the MVC was always it's preferred location for it's soccer, given it's location in the outskirts of St. Louis.
Unless you meant close to the MAC in terms of competition? That would indeed be far from the MAC ... 336th out of 353 in Basketball 2019/202 NET wouldn't get MAC Basketball coaches excited about the idea of an Olympic Sports add. Their soccer is far more competitive than their basketball (not surprising since Greater St. Louis is such good soccer recruiting grounds).
RE: Southern Illinois - Edwardsville leaving MAC Soccer for MVC after 2020 season. - Kit-Cat - 06-16-2020 02:25 PM
(06-15-2020 09:08 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:(06-15-2020 07:55 PM)Love and Honor Wrote: SIUE actually has some potential to be a decent mid major athletic department as the only DI public school in St. Louis. Not anywhere close to the MAC but its something.4 hours to Northern Illinois (5 hours to Ball State & 5.5hrs to Miami, but they don't play soccer) make it not all that far "from" the MAC. But one presumes that the MVC was always it's preferred location for it's soccer, given it's location in the outskirts of St. Louis.
Unless you meant close to the MAC in terms of competition? That would indeed be far from the MAC ... 336th out of 353 in Basketball 2019/202 NET wouldn't get MAC Basketball coaches excited about the idea of an Olympic Sports add. Their soccer is far more competitive than their basketball (not surprising since Greater St. Louis is such good soccer recruiting grounds).
Also the perception of adding a branch campus of SIU to the MAC.
I like the idea of the MAC trying to get SLU since they've considered the MAC before when leaving CUSA and think they are above the Valley. Pair them with UIC and that would help MAC basketball.
RE: Southern Illinois - Edwardsville leaving MAC Soccer for MVC after 2020 season. - BruceMcF - 06-16-2020 07:30 PM
(06-16-2020 02:25 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote: Also the perception of adding a branch campus of SIU to the MAC.
I like the idea of the MAC trying to get SLU since they've considered the MAC before when leaving CUSA and think they are above the Valley.
Being in the A-10 will tend to foster the notion that you are above the Valley, at least in Basketball. Problem is, it also fosters the notion that you are above the MAC, making it hard for the MAC to raid them ...
... even setting aside the issues of institutional fit.
Quote: Pair them with UIC and that would help MAC basketball.UIC [2019/20 NET: 217] is not going to set the hearts of Men's Basketball coaches fluttering.
The schools that the MAC could raid for Olympic-Sports schools won't tend to boost MAC Basketball, and the ones that would boost MAC Basketball are often in conferences the MAC couldn't raid for Olympic Sports schools.
But on the topic of the thead, either or both would fix the problem of soccer losing its autobid.
RE: Southern Illinois - Edwardsville leaving MAC Soccer for MVC after 2020 season. - Bronco'14 - 06-16-2020 07:58 PM
(06-15-2020 07:55 PM)Love and Honor Wrote: SIUE actually has some potential to be a decent mid major athletic department as the only DI public school in St. Louis. Not anywhere close to the MAC but its something.
Wish Miami had men's soccer (and men's tennis plus wrestling) but all them went by the wayside from Title IX. Hockey plus football will do that to you.
Western has men's soccer, men's tennis, hockey, & football (not wrestling tho)
I wish we had track & field and men's cross country
RE: Southern Illinois - Edwardsville leaving MAC Soccer for MVC after 2020 season. - BruceMcF - 06-16-2020 09:03 PM
(06-16-2020 07:58 PM)Bronco14 Wrote: Western has men's soccer, men's tennis, hockey, & football (not wrestling tho)
I wish we had track & field and men's cross country
I'm sure the other MAC track programs in the schools surrounding WMU are happy that they can recruit in your territory, just as I'm sure WMU soccer looks to draw more recruits from around the Mitton because EMU and CMU don't have soccer.
That kind of defines the shape of MAC men's soccer ... one of the Battle for Michigan, one of the Battle of I-75, one of the Wagon Wheel, plus NIU.
Miami isn't going to restart men's soccer. If they start another men's sport, it would be because of growing lacrosse popularity in Chicagoland has them start Men & Women's Lacrosse, and that'd be five to ten years in the future.
If there was a school that could start soccer in the MAC, it would be Ohio, but it would probably cost the Baseball team, and I'd be loathe to suggest losing any more of our baseball teams.
RE: Southern Illinois - Edwardsville leaving MAC Soccer for MVC after 2020 season. - Love and Honor - 06-16-2020 09:50 PM
(06-15-2020 09:08 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:(06-15-2020 07:55 PM)Love and Honor Wrote: SIUE actually has some potential to be a decent mid major athletic department as the only DI public school in St. Louis. Not anywhere close to the MAC but its something.4 hours to Northern Illinois (5 hours to Ball State & 5.5hrs to Miami, but they don't play soccer) make it not all that far "from" the MAC. But one presumes that the MVC was always it's preferred location for it's soccer, given it's location in the outskirts of St. Louis.
Unless you meant close to the MAC in terms of competition? That would indeed be far from the MAC ... 336th out of 353 in Basketball 2019/202 NET wouldn't get MAC Basketball coaches excited about the idea of an Olympic Sports add. Their soccer is far more competitive than their basketball (not surprising since Greater St. Louis is such good soccer recruiting grounds).
Yep competition. Geographically a UB or Toledo-esp public school in St. Louis would be perfect but its really not to be, SIUE needs a generation to develop their athletic department and UMSL is a DII mess.
RE: Southern Illinois - Edwardsville leaving MAC Soccer for MVC after 2020 season. - Kit-Cat - 06-16-2020 09:52 PM
(06-16-2020 09:03 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:(06-16-2020 07:58 PM)Bronco14 Wrote: Western has men's soccer, men's tennis, hockey, & football (not wrestling tho)
I wish we had track & field and men's cross country
I'm sure the other MAC track programs in the schools surrounding WMU are happy that they can recruit in your territory, just as I'm sure WMU soccer looks to draw more recruits from around the Mitton because EMU and CMU don't have soccer.
That kind of defines the shape of MAC men's soccer ... one of the Battle for Michigan, one of the Battle of I-75, one of the Wagon Wheel, plus NIU.
Miami isn't going to restart men's soccer. If they start another men's sport, it would be because of growing lacrosse popularity in Chicagoland has them start Men & Women's Lacrosse, and that'd be five to ten years in the future.
If there was a school that could start soccer in the MAC, it would be Ohio, but it would probably cost the Baseball team, and I'd be loathe to suggest losing any more of our baseball teams.
Dropping baseball is a non-starter for Ohio with a newer stadium and a rich tradition in the sport. A rookie league team plays their in the summer.
The stadium is not a patch of valuable land waiting to be paved over by academic buildings like it is some places.
RE: Southern Illinois - Edwardsville leaving MAC Soccer for MVC after 2020 season. - Kit-Cat - 06-16-2020 10:01 PM
(06-16-2020 07:30 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:(06-16-2020 02:25 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote: Also the perception of adding a branch campus of SIU to the MAC.
I like the idea of the MAC trying to get SLU since they've considered the MAC before when leaving CUSA and think they are above the Valley.
Being in the A-10 will tend to foster the notion that you are above the Valley, at least in Basketball. Problem is, it also fosters the notion that you are above the MAC, making it hard for the MAC to raid them ...
... even setting aside the issues of institutional fit.
Quote: Pair them with UIC and that would help MAC basketball.UIC [2019/20 NET: 217] is not going to set the hearts of Men's Basketball coaches fluttering.
The schools that the MAC could raid for Olympic-Sports schools won't tend to boost MAC Basketball, and the ones that would boost MAC Basketball are often in conferences the MAC couldn't raid for Olympic Sports schools.
But on the topic of the thead, either or both would fix the problem of soccer losing its autobid.
The whole idea of picking up a school like SLU is to create an A10 style 14 team basketball conference in the Midwest, meaning additional media exposure.
While at it 14 in basketball would keep the MAC as the largest mid major conference in the Midwest just as the A10 has that distinction along the Northeast.
Plus SLU has something to gain in the arrangement; an association with an FBS conference like Wichita St has. Long term its a better position than A10 membership.
More bus rides and exposure in Chicagoland with NIU/UIC doen't hurt either.
If they were excelling in the A10 I could see it being a non-starter but they've largely struggled so they aren't earning much in the way of NCAA units. Could have a chance at more success in the MAC.
RE: Southern Illinois - Edwardsville leaving MAC Soccer for MVC after 2020 season. - BruceMcF - 06-17-2020 01:25 AM
(06-16-2020 10:01 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote: The whole idea of picking up a school like SLU is to create an A10 style 14 team basketball conference in the Midwest, meaning additional media exposure.
While at it 14 in basketball would keep the MAC as the largest mid major conference in the Midwest just as the A10 has that distinction along the Northeast.
On that notion that bigger is better, as it's relevant to the thread. Yes, six soccer teams in the MAC men's soccer competition is better than five.
Over off-topic on the question of watering down MAC basketball and increasing travel costs for no good reason, there is no particular benefit in having 14 over having 12. 14 is only a good idea if the right schools were to become available to boost the conference as a whole, and offset the downsides of expanding past 12.
RE: Southern Illinois - Edwardsville leaving MAC Soccer for MVC after 2020 season. - axeme - 06-17-2020 07:01 AM
(06-16-2020 10:01 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:(06-16-2020 07:30 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:(06-16-2020 02:25 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote: Also the perception of adding a branch campus of SIU to the MAC.
I like the idea of the MAC trying to get SLU since they've considered the MAC before when leaving CUSA and think they are above the Valley.
Being in the A-10 will tend to foster the notion that you are above the Valley, at least in Basketball. Problem is, it also fosters the notion that you are above the MAC, making it hard for the MAC to raid them ...
... even setting aside the issues of institutional fit.
Quote: Pair them with UIC and that would help MAC basketball.UIC [2019/20 NET: 217] is not going to set the hearts of Men's Basketball coaches fluttering.
The schools that the MAC could raid for Olympic-Sports schools won't tend to boost MAC Basketball, and the ones that would boost MAC Basketball are often in conferences the MAC couldn't raid for Olympic Sports schools.
But on the topic of the thead, either or both would fix the problem of soccer losing its autobid.
The whole idea of picking up a school like SLU is to create an A10 style 14 team basketball conference in the Midwest, meaning additional media exposure.
While at it 14 in basketball would keep the MAC as the largest mid major conference in the Midwest just as the A10 has that distinction along the Northeast.
Plus SLU has something to gain in the arrangement; an association with an FBS conference like Wichita St has. Long term its a better position than A10 membership.
More bus rides and exposure in Chicagoland with NIU/UIC doen't hurt either.
If they were excelling in the A10 I could see it being a non-starter but they've largely struggled so they aren't earning much in the way of NCAA units. Could have a chance at more success in the MAC.
The MAC, a collection of public universities, has no interest ever in inviting a private Jesuit university without football. Bad fit for SLU and for the MAC. There’s a reason you don’t invite schools who can put their athletic emphasis on only one of the two major men’s sports, plus pour their ample private resources into it as well.
RE: Southern Illinois - Edwardsville leaving MAC Soccer for MVC after 2020 season. - BruceMcF - 06-17-2020 07:57 AM
(06-17-2020 07:01 AM)axeme Wrote: The MAC, a collection of public universities, has no interest ever in inviting a private Jesuit university without football.
Yes, an excellent description of what I vaguely waved at in passing as "institutional fit".
For the MAC to add a non-FB school, it has to be a REALLY MAC-like school with strong benefits ... both RPI and recruiting, and probably travel as well, plus ESPN says they'll pay more than the agreed Olympic-sports only share so everyone gets more money.
Now, my crystal ball is in the shop, so I'm never going to say never, but that seems likely to be a Unicorn.
It certainly won't be because it snares MAC soccer an autobid of six+ schools (the ostensible topic of this thread), while being (1) EXTREMELY non-MAC-like and (2) obviously NOT going to get a top-up from ESPN, like SLU.
__________________________________
(06-16-2020 09:50 PM)Love and Honor Wrote: Yep competition. Geographically a UB or Toledo-esp public school in St. Louis would be perfect but its really not to be, SIUE needs a generation to develop their athletic department and UMSL is a DII mess.
Yeah, I don't see it in St. Louis. Much as I wish St. Louis was the location of a "Go5 Champions Bowl".
If someone built a thriving basketball program at UIC and they have outgrown the Horizon, and the A-10 decide they are full up, and it would actually boost MAC basketball, I wouldn't say no ...
... and a non-FB school WOULD shore up some of the MAC's subsidy sports sponsorships, since they don't have the FB Title IV problems, so UIC sponsors soccer, men's track and swimming and diving.
HOWEVER, any hypothetical like that is years in the future, likely a decade or more and the soccer needs a sixth school by 2023 to retain their autobid. So it is really useless as far as helping the current more immediate need in soccer.
RE: Southern Illinois - Edwardsville leaving MAC Soccer for MVC after 2020 season. - IWokeUpLikeThis - 06-17-2020 08:28 AM
(06-16-2020 10:01 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote: The whole idea of picking up a school like SLU is to create an A10 style 14 team basketball conference in the Midwest, meaning additional media exposure.
While at it 14 in basketball would keep the MAC as the largest mid major conference in the Midwest just as the A10 has that distinction along the Northeast.
Plus SLU has something to gain in the arrangement; an association with an FBS conference like Wichita St has. Long term its a better position than A10 membership.
If they were excelling in the A10 I could see it being a non-starter but they've largely struggled so they aren't earning much in the way of NCAA units. Could have a chance at more success in the MAC.
Please post this on the SLU board.
https://www.billikens.com/forum/index.php?/forum/101-billikenscom-main-board/
RE: Southern Illinois - Edwardsville leaving MAC Soccer for MVC after 2020 season. - axeme - 06-17-2020 09:24 AM
(06-17-2020 08:28 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:(06-16-2020 10:01 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote: The whole idea of picking up a school like SLU is to create an A10 style 14 team basketball conference in the Midwest, meaning additional media exposure.
While at it 14 in basketball would keep the MAC as the largest mid major conference in the Midwest just as the A10 has that distinction along the Northeast.
Plus SLU has something to gain in the arrangement; an association with an FBS conference like Wichita St has. Long term its a better position than A10 membership.
If they were excelling in the A10 I could see it being a non-starter but they've largely struggled so they aren't earning much in the way of NCAA units. Could have a chance at more success in the MAC.
Please post this on the SLU board.
https://www.billikens.com/forum/index.php?/forum/101-billikenscom-main-board/
Have they been depressed lately and need a good laugh?
RE: Southern Illinois - Edwardsville leaving MAC Soccer for MVC after 2020 season. - BruceMcF - 06-18-2020 10:17 AM
So, after that basketball realignment diversion ...
How to keep a soccer autobid for 2023?
(1) Try to raid Howard?
(2) Try to merge with Sunbelt Soccer, also down to five?
(3) Try to raid Howard to force Sunbelt Soccer to merge?
(4) Try to recruit just the Sunbelt 3 for an 8 team conference?
(5) Some other prospect ... and after we kicked out Hartwick and then they lost their D1 grandfather clause status for soccer, it's not clear to me what other prospects are out there.
RE: Southern Illinois - Edwardsville leaving MAC Soccer for MVC after 2020 season. - Schadenfreude - 06-18-2020 10:50 AM
(06-18-2020 10:17 AM)BruceMcF Wrote: So, after that basketball realignment diversion ...
How to keep a soccer autobid for 2023?
(1) Try to raid Howard?
(2) Try to merge with Sunbelt Soccer, also down to five?
(3) Try to raid Howard to force Sunbelt Soccer to merge?
(4) Try to recruit just the Sunbelt 3 for an 8 team conference?
(5) Some other prospect ... and after we kicked out Hartwick and then they lost their D1 grandfather clause status for soccer, it's not clear to me what other prospects are out there.
I'd love to have Howard in the MAC. That's a great school.
The more reasonable play might be to do as you say: Merge with the Sun Belt for soccer, and set up two divisions: a Sun Belt Division and a Mid-American Division. Each division plays a round robin within the division and select crossover games. The championship game could be between division winners.
The downside is that it's tougher for any one team to win a 10-team league and grab the automatic bid than it is in a six-team league.
RE: Southern Illinois - Edwardsville leaving MAC Soccer for MVC after 2020 season. - BruceMcF - 06-18-2020 01:01 PM
(06-18-2020 10:50 AM)Schadenfreude Wrote:(06-18-2020 10:17 AM)BruceMcF Wrote: So, after that basketball realignment diversion ...
How to keep a soccer autobid for 2023?
(1) Try to raid Howard?
(2) Try to merge with Sunbelt Soccer, also down to five?
(3) Try to raid Howard to force Sunbelt Soccer to merge?
(4) Try to recruit just the Sunbelt 3 for an 8 team conference?
(5) Some other prospect ... and after we kicked out Hartwick and then they lost their D1 grandfather clause status for soccer, it's not clear to me what other prospects are out there.
I'd love to have Howard in the MAC. That's a great school.
The more reasonable play might be to do as you say: Merge with the Sun Belt for soccer, and set up two divisions: a Sun Belt Division and a Mid-American Division. Each division plays a round robin within the division and select crossover games. The championship game could be between division winners.
The downside is that it's tougher for any one team to win a 10-team league and grab the automatic bid than it is in a six-team league.
The downside of raiding the depleted Sunbelt for Howard is that it wouldn't help our conference RPI ... Howard today is not the powerhouse Howard soccer program of the 1970's.
The upsides are they aren't likely to frequently take the autobid they make possible, and WVU would likely be happy with the trip to DC, so it helps solidify WVU in the MAC conference.
One thing to note about trying to get JUST the Sunbelt three, as cruel as it would surely be to Howard and Central Arkansas (and Central Arkansas is a good program), is that it could also be a divisional set-up if WVU played in with the Sunbelt three. But I would be loathe to train WVU to think of themselves as soccer partners with the Sunbelt 3, since that suggests the SUNBELT should fix THEIR 5 team problem by raiding the MAC of WVU.
So 1 and 2 are my first two choices. For 2, double round robin divisions, 4 cross over games (2H, 2A), is a 12 conference game slate across 14 fixture dates. Then classic home and away fixtures for semi-final (#1v#2 crossover divisions) and final, to get more RPI for the finalists and hopefully snare some at-large bids now and again.