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Do you think there will be a 2020 college FB season? - Cataclysmo - 06-03-2020 07:18 AM
Pretty much
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Do you think there will be a 2020 college FB season? - Cataclysmo - 06-03-2020 07:21 AM
And to Rath's point and what I was saying earlier, that debt exists now at a critical point for the rest of the University. We're close to major reductions in staff across all colleges and it becomes harder and harder to justify doing that when athletics keeps painting red.
I love football and basketball and couldn't imagine not having them at UC. I also think the non-tangible assets from marketability and donations are valuable to a University. But so long as those numbers aren't being used to offset the stated defecit, there will be a growing contingent of academics questioning the efficacy of keeping this thing going. That's true throughout the country, too.
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RE: Do you think there will be a 2020 college FB season? - rath v2.0 - 06-03-2020 08:08 AM
UC has lived fairly lavishly on high interest credit cards for 20 years. I’ll leave determining the wisdom or folly of that to others.
RE: Do you think there will be a 2020 college FB season? - OKIcat - 06-03-2020 10:17 AM
(06-03-2020 07:21 AM)Cataclysmo Wrote: And to Rath's point and what I was saying earlier, that debt exists now at a critical point for the rest of the University. We're close to major reductions in staff across all colleges and it becomes harder and harder to justify doing that when athletics keeps painting red.
I love football and basketball and couldn't imagine not having them at UC. I also think the non-tangible assets from marketability and donations are valuable to a University. But so long as those numbers aren't being used to offset the stated defecit, there will be a growing contingent of academics questioning the efficacy of keeping this thing going. That's true throughout the country, too.
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Your points are valid and well stated. Bolded, to me is the key. UC football is among the top five programs now in the G5 and appears to be continuously improving under Coach Fickell's leadership.
I believe there will be movement in one form or another at or before 2025 for these G5 best of the rest, either through conference expansion or a split from the NCAA. While UC's expenditures are a serious matter, imagine the conversations about football that must be going on right now at scores of non-contending G5 schools such as UCONN?
Certainly, if, how, and when college football returns this fall will impinge on this financially too. I teach an evening class at UC and I was surprised when we shut down mid-March, shocked when campus closed down later for the remainder of the semester, and I'm dismayed by the possibility that campus may not re-open on some level for fall semester.
Consumer behavior (prospective students) can change course quickly sometimes. If online means no expenditure for housing, food, and other campus services, many students will take that option and enjoy attending class online in pajamas each day. To me this is a more fundamental risk to the underlying financial health of the institution, which was built upon a business model of on-campus participation.
RE: Do you think there will be a 2020 college FB season? - dubcat14 - 06-03-2020 10:31 AM
(06-03-2020 06:25 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:(06-02-2020 09:34 AM)Racinejake Wrote:(06-02-2020 09:32 AM)doss2 Wrote:(06-02-2020 06:07 AM)converrl Wrote: UC FB lost 7 million in 2018?
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/college/university-of-cincinnati/2020/05/28/coronavirus-covid-19-college-sports-cincinnati-ohio-miami-aac-mac/5226197002/
How do they account for contributions which other wise would not be made?
Devil is in the details most likely which I have not seen. Football program gets allocated full fare cost of scholarships (times 85 players, many of those out of state). There are likely many other costs factored in there as well like debt service on Nippert, potentially Varsity Village, etc.
From the Ohio Auditor a couple years back.
See page 14 for the athletics debt servicing schedule. It’s brutal and that is before The Shoe was redone.
http://www.auditor.state.oh.us/AuditSearch/Reports/2017/University_of_Cincinnati_17-Hamilton_NCAA.pdf
Before the Shoe renovation, the first $9,892,595 of revenue this year goes to athletics department capital improvements debt servicing. Look at 2023 and beyond....better be sitting down when you do so.
The way I'm reading it, they're breaking those figures down into 5 year segments and that is the total principal and interest for said 5 year period. Average principal and interest of 9.99M for period 2023-2027 isn't much different than average principal and interest of 9.89M for 2022 or 9.909M for 2019. Hopefully there aren't any other major 100M dollar projects in the next 15-20 years unless a conference is helping the cost.
RE: Do you think there will be a 2020 college FB season? - Recluse1 - 06-03-2020 10:57 AM
(06-02-2020 06:18 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:(06-02-2020 09:44 AM)CliftonAve Wrote: You can keep wishing for it all you like, but UC football is not dropping down to FCS or disbanding altogether. In fact, the university is going to put more money into football.
We're just 6 years past an $85 million investment in Nippert. Hey Bearcat Nation - sorry, but we're dropping down to FCS competition. LOL.
I just remember the conference realignment thread... A lot was expended to make UC a viable candidate for expansion. While no one can predict that circumstances would break the way they did, we put a lot of eggs in one basket. The wisdom of that will be called into question by the same faculty and alumni, who were never big fans of athletics in the first place. Given that it's slipped in the university rankings, and our present situation, I can't necessarily blame them. I'm not saying I agree with them, but I am more sympathetic than I would have been a few years ago.
Do you think there will be a 2020 college FB season? - Cataclysmo - 06-03-2020 11:02 AM
Yes and if you're going to use those bonds to invest in Nippert and 5/3 eventually people are going to want clear cut indicators that it was worth it. Football and Basketball seem to be on the right track as programs, but it's becoming so difficult to maintain that competetive edge as a G5 school that the P5 really does become a boom or bust proposition in the next few years. We simply can't afford to keep operating in that big of a hole. A few AAC schools are in the same boat as us, and a few simply don't have the gull to compete. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
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Do you think there will be a 2020 college FB season? - Cataclysmo - 06-03-2020 11:06 AM
My dream scenario, as much as I'd hate watching a professional team leave the city, is for the Bengals to scram when the stadium deal expires, and UC uses it as leverage to become the city's premier athletic program and gain access to the P5. Then I finally have an excuse to go be a Colts fan or something. A man can dream.
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RE: Do you think there will be a 2020 college FB season? - doss2 - 06-03-2020 11:22 AM
(06-03-2020 11:06 AM)Cataclysmo Wrote: My dream scenario, as much as I'd hate watching a professional team leave the city, is for the Bengals to scram when the stadium deal expires, and UC uses it as leverage to become the city's premier athletic program and gain access to the P5. Then I finally have an excuse to go be a Colts fan or something. A man can dream.
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A great hope, that said I am not sure I want some of those vulgar Bengals fans in Nippert.
RE: Do you think there will be a 2020 college FB season? - Racinejake - 06-03-2020 11:32 AM
(06-03-2020 11:02 AM)Cataclysmo Wrote: Yes and if you're going to use those bonds to invest in Nippert and 5/3 eventually people are going to want clear cut indicators that it was worth it. Football and Basketball seem to be on the right track as programs, but it's becoming so difficult to maintain that competetive edge as a G5 school that the P5 really does become a boom or bust proposition in the next few years. We simply can't afford to keep operating in that big of a hole. A few AAC schools are in the same boat as us, and a few simply don't have the gull to compete. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
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Agree with the general premise around ongoing costs but the money for those facilities (5/3 and Nippert) has already been spent. We have to service that debt even if we cut all of our sports programs. So then you look at the 'operating' expenses and revenues and you see that all of the sports programs aside from Football and MBB are a loser to the tune of about $11.4mm annually. Then you have other revenue sources that are deemed 'non program specific' like royalties/licensing/advertising/sponsorships of $6.7mm, contributions of $2.3mm, and 'other income (who knows)' of $3.4mm. How much of this is direct beneficiaries of strong football and basketball?
I see more and more pressure coming on non-revenue sports. But with Title IX and the amount of scholarships required by football, it will be difficult to cut too much fat.
Do you think there will be a 2020 college FB season? - Cataclysmo - 06-03-2020 11:38 AM
Yes agree to both points. Which is why I think it's important to continue the P5 push for the next decade. We're all in now.
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RE: Do you think there will be a 2020 college FB season? - CliftonAve - 06-03-2020 11:43 AM
(06-03-2020 11:22 AM)doss2 Wrote:(06-03-2020 11:06 AM)Cataclysmo Wrote: My dream scenario, as much as I'd hate watching a professional team leave the city, is for the Bengals to scram when the stadium deal expires, and UC uses it as leverage to become the city's premier athletic program and gain access to the P5. Then I finally have an excuse to go be a Colts fan or something. A man can dream.
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A great hope, that said I am not sure I want some of those vulgar Bengals fans in Nippert.
I would— those people are willing to spend money on tickets, merchandise and food/beverage.
No Bengals and UC football gets all the local mainstream media coverage in the fall. The corporations kick in a lot more money for advertisement and sponsorship.
It’s a win-win for UC football.
RE: Do you think there will be a 2020 college FB season? - Recluse1 - 06-03-2020 11:52 AM
It must be hard to be a Bengal or Brown fan. I wonder, are they just masochists? But I used to think the same thing about Cubs fans.
(06-03-2020 11:43 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:(06-03-2020 11:22 AM)doss2 Wrote:(06-03-2020 11:06 AM)Cataclysmo Wrote: My dream scenario, as much as I'd hate watching a professional team leave the city, is for the Bengals to scram when the stadium deal expires, and UC uses it as leverage to become the city's premier athletic program and gain access to the P5. Then I finally have an excuse to go be a Colts fan or something. A man can dream.
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A great hope, that said I am not sure I want some of those vulgar Bengals fans in Nippert.
I would— those people are willing to spend money on tickets, merchandise and food/beverage.
No Bengals and UC football gets all the local mainstream media coverage in the fall. The corporations kick in a lot more money for advertisement and sponsorship.
It’s a win-win for UC football.
I don't know man, I've seen some pretty nasty folks walking out after games at Paul Brown.
RE: Do you think there will be a 2020 college FB season? - converrl - 06-03-2020 12:24 PM
(06-03-2020 11:06 AM)Cataclysmo Wrote: My dream scenario, as much as I'd hate watching a professional team leave the city, is for the Bengals to scram when the stadium deal expires, and UC uses it as leverage to become the city's premier athletic program and gain access to the P5. Then I finally have an excuse to go be a Colts fan or something. A man can dream.
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And this would help downtown go further into the toilet and would help cost hundreds of jobs due to lack of major league presence. Why stop at the Bengals...how about driving the Reds out of town also! Then the only game in town would be UC sports.
And if the quality of the UC product suffers, you would effectively turn Cincinnati into Dayton.
What a great plan! Pitch it to city council! I'm certain you'll get all the backing in the world.
RE: Do you think there will be a 2020 college FB season? - OKIcat - 06-03-2020 12:51 PM
(06-03-2020 11:52 AM)Recluse1 Wrote: It must be hard to be a Bengal or Brown fan. I wonder, are they just masochists? But I used to think the same thing about Cubs fans.
(06-03-2020 11:43 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:(06-03-2020 11:22 AM)doss2 Wrote:(06-03-2020 11:06 AM)Cataclysmo Wrote: My dream scenario, as much as I'd hate watching a professional team leave the city, is for the Bengals to scram when the stadium deal expires, and UC uses it as leverage to become the city's premier athletic program and gain access to the P5. Then I finally have an excuse to go be a Colts fan or something. A man can dream.
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A great hope, that said I am not sure I want some of those vulgar Bengals fans in Nippert.
I would— those people are willing to spend money on tickets, merchandise and food/beverage.
No Bengals and UC football gets all the local mainstream media coverage in the fall. The corporations kick in a lot more money for advertisement and sponsorship.
It’s a win-win for UC football.
I don't know man, I've seen some pretty nasty folks walking out after games at Paul Brown.
We'd all look that way if we'd just sat through a Bengals game.
RE: Do you think there will be a 2020 college FB season? - Cataclysmo - 06-03-2020 01:28 PM
(06-03-2020 12:24 PM)converrl Wrote:If the Bengals leave its not going to be because UC pushed them out. It'll be because the city doesn't want to field another BS contract for a historically crappy franchise. I am a huge Bengals fan but Mike Brown absolutely murdered this city. All I'm saying is that if he decides to take his ball and do it somehwere else, which is a distinct possibility, UC should take advantage and fill the gap.(06-03-2020 11:06 AM)Cataclysmo Wrote: My dream scenario, as much as I'd hate watching a professional team leave the city, is for the Bengals to scram when the stadium deal expires, and UC uses it as leverage to become the city's premier athletic program and gain access to the P5. Then I finally have an excuse to go be a Colts fan or something. A man can dream.
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And this would help downtown go further into the toilet and would help cost hundreds of jobs due to lack of major league presence. Why stop at the Bengals...how about driving the Reds out of town also! Then the only game in town would be UC sports.
And if the quality of the UC product suffers, you would effectively turn Cincinnati into Dayton.
What a great plan! Pitch it to city council! I'm certain you'll get all the backing in the world.
Gat Dayum, you are hell bent on throwing UC football to the wolves.
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Do you think there will be a 2020 college FB season? - Cataclysmo - 06-03-2020 01:28 PM
I mean, I literally started that post with "as much as I'd hate to see a professional team leave the city"
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RE: Do you think there will be a 2020 college FB season? - Bruce Monnin - 06-03-2020 01:36 PM
(06-03-2020 12:24 PM)converrl Wrote: And this would help downtown go further into the toilet and would help cost hundreds of jobs due to lack of major league presence. Why stop at the Bengals...how about driving the Reds out of town also! Then the only game in town would be UC sports.
And if the quality of the UC product suffers, you would effectively turn Cincinnati into Dayton.
What a great plan! Pitch it to city council! I'm certain you'll get all the backing in the world.
City Clowncil would likely be greatly in favor as long as their was a way they could personally profit.
RE: Do you think there will be a 2020 college FB season? - geef - 06-03-2020 01:40 PM
(06-03-2020 12:24 PM)converrl Wrote:(06-03-2020 11:06 AM)Cataclysmo Wrote: My dream scenario, as much as I'd hate watching a professional team leave the city, is for the Bengals to scram when the stadium deal expires, and UC uses it as leverage to become the city's premier athletic program and gain access to the P5. Then I finally have an excuse to go be a Colts fan or something. A man can dream.
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And this would help downtown go further into the toilet and would help cost hundreds of jobs due to lack of major league presence. Why stop at the Bengals...how about driving the Reds out of town also! Then the only game in town would be UC sports.
And if the quality of the UC product suffers, you would effectively turn Cincinnati into Dayton.
What a great plan! Pitch it to city council! I'm certain you'll get all the backing in the world.
The vibrancy of a city has absolutely nothing to do with a monolith that is detached from the rest of downtown and used only ten times a year.
RE: Do you think there will be a 2020 college FB season? - CliftonAve - 06-03-2020 01:50 PM
(06-03-2020 01:40 PM)geef Wrote:(06-03-2020 12:24 PM)converrl Wrote:(06-03-2020 11:06 AM)Cataclysmo Wrote: My dream scenario, as much as I'd hate watching a professional team leave the city, is for the Bengals to scram when the stadium deal expires, and UC uses it as leverage to become the city's premier athletic program and gain access to the P5. Then I finally have an excuse to go be a Colts fan or something. A man can dream.
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And this would help downtown go further into the toilet and would help cost hundreds of jobs due to lack of major league presence. Why stop at the Bengals...how about driving the Reds out of town also! Then the only game in town would be UC sports.
And if the quality of the UC product suffers, you would effectively turn Cincinnati into Dayton.
What a great plan! Pitch it to city council! I'm certain you'll get all the backing in the world.
The vibrancy of a city has absolutely nothing to do with a monolith that is detached from the rest of downtown and used only ten times a year.
Yeah, unlike the Reds who have fans throughout most of southern Ohio, Kentucky and even over into West Virginia, the core Bengal fan lives in Southwest Ohio/NKY. Bengals average what 50K a game? Of those 50K I suspect 85-90% are within a 45 minute drive from downtown. That means they come in to tailgate, watch the game and drive back to their home in suburban NKY, Butler/Warren County, etc. I doubt the downtown hotels are affected that much and the same for the restaurant scene (many of those people might catch dinner at an establishment in the burbs).
The lone exception to this rule is when someone like the Steelers, Browns, Colts, Cowboys or Patriots come to town-- there IS a spike then for all the visiting fans but aside for the Browns and Steelers we don't see those other teams that often.