(05-18-2020 07:45 AM)smudge12 Wrote:  The country never closed, and we pay for it with continuing deaths and long-term economic damage. I wish we followed the path of other nations and closed for a month or two; the most severe part would be over by now. Unfortunately, national leadership has been non-existent, so we'll simply live (or die) with the consequences of a hodge-podge of responses.

Considering the political climate though, the US was never going to be united in the fight. It is what it is, but that doesn't help the 90,000 dead and the 45,000 more expected to pass away (before a possible 2nd wave). We can't even agree on simple measures so we'll continue to see the pandemic drag out; besides the social toll, the economic toll is going to be unnecessarily high.

(05-18-2020 09:16 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

(05-18-2020 07:45 AM)smudge12 Wrote:  The country never closed, and we pay for it with continuing deaths and long-term economic damage. I wish we followed the path of other nations and closed for a month or two; the most severe part would be over by now. Unfortunately, national leadership has been non-existent, so we'll simply live (or die) with the consequences of a hodge-podge of responses.

Considering the political climate though, the US was never going to be united in the fight. It is what it is, but that doesn't help the 90,000 dead and the 45,000 more expected to pass away (before a possible 2nd wave). We can't even agree on simple measures so we'll continue to see the pandemic drag out; besides the social toll, the economic toll is going to be unnecessarily high.

I'm honestly fascinated with this line of thinking. Our country is so much bigger and so much more diverse (in lifestyle) than the smaller countries that "closed for a month or two." What does a diner in Billings, MT have to do with the fact that the Tri-State area has 1/3 of this country's cases and deaths? Closing the diner in Billings might very well cause a loss of livelihood without adding a single data point to the coronavirus statistics.

Smudge, I know you're the in Beltway, where the problem is real, but there are many places in this country (and even within the Commonwealth) that this is no more severe than the flu or pneumonia. I just can't get on board with a one-size fits all approach, just because the nation's power players live in congested urban areas.

(05-18-2020 09:16 AM)VB Monarch Wrote:  Some leaders have made it clear they don't encourage testing. Despite continued lack of sufficient testing, we'll see what figures look like a couple weeks after "re-openng"

(05-18-2020 10:02 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(05-18-2020 09:16 AM)VB Monarch Wrote:  Some leaders have made it clear they don't encourage testing. Despite continued lack of sufficient testing, we'll see what figures look like a couple weeks after "re-openng"

What is sufficient testing? We have tested 4X any other nation (last i saw). Most of the experts I hear say that we do not need to test everyone. We have enough data between testing and hospital reporting to identify flare ups and address them locally at this point. If you are waiting for 300M tests a week, you are going to be waiting for one hell of a long time. Hell giant industries that have been making toilet paper for a century can't even ramp up to increased supply in a short time, how the hell do you expect a billion tests a month to be made, distributed, and administered with such a short turnaround?

At the end of the day, this is a local problem at this point, and should be managed locally with assistance from state and federal governments for things local governments can't manage, like production and distribution of tests and PPE. I trust my city council to make the best decision for my city a hell of a lot more than I trust a governor whose pockets are lined in NOVA where the issues they are facing could not be more vastly different than the problems VB is facing.

(05-18-2020 10:28 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(05-18-2020 10:02 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(05-18-2020 09:16 AM)VB Monarch Wrote:  Some leaders have made it clear they don't encourage testing. Despite continued lack of sufficient testing, we'll see what figures look like a couple weeks after "re-openng"

What is sufficient testing? We have tested 4X any other nation (last i saw). Most of the experts I hear say that we do not need to test everyone. We have enough data between testing and hospital reporting to identify flare ups and address them locally at this point. If you are waiting for 300M tests a week, you are going to be waiting for one hell of a long time. Hell giant industries that have been making toilet paper for a century can't even ramp up to increased supply in a short time, how the hell do you expect a billion tests a month to be made, distributed, and administered with such a short turnaround?

At the end of the day, this is a local problem at this point, and should be managed locally with assistance from state and federal governments for things local governments can't manage, like production and distribution of tests and PPE. I trust my city council to make the best decision for my city a hell of a lot more than I trust a governor whose pockets are lined in NOVA where the issues they are facing could not be more vastly different than the problems VB is facing.

This should have been a focus in December/January and it wouldn't have been such a short turnaround.

(05-18-2020 10:17 AM)smudge12 Wrote:  Gilesfan is correct.

Shutting down the country would have contained the virus (not eliminated it), making it easier to implement contact tracing, testing, and quarantines where necessary. Months since it appeared, we're still on a wild goose chase with no understanding in the path it's taking across the country.

I understand the economic concerns, but we're likely creating more long-term damage continuing on this path. Without a good containment effort (or vaccine), a large portion of the population is wary of spending their money outside the home. Unfortunately small businesses will suffer the most, and I'm not sure they'll survive solely on the revenue from people who aren't worried. Additionally, every death creates lost productivity potential for the nation (with the only immediate way to make it up being immigration).

We're also on the verge, and very serious issue, of being completely blocked off from other nations since we can't contain the virus. Exports and imports will continue, but I'm not sure how long the tourism industry (and I'm sure others) can last if the world isolates us for a long time.

Had we shut down, paused all loans and interest at all levels (from individuals to large businesses), and temporarily provided a monthly stipend and universal healthcare, I think we'd have been way better off. It would've still sucked, but we could have contained it by now, suffered only a month or so of economic damage, and directed resources (like testing) where it's truly needed.

(05-18-2020 10:54 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  concentration camp.

(05-18-2020 10:59 AM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(05-18-2020 10:54 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  concentration camp.

Quote:Shutting down the country would have contained the virus (not eliminated it), making it easier to implement contact tracing, testing, and quarantines where necessary.

(05-18-2020 10:58 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  Here is a bit of an eyeopener for those who want to just wag their finger at The White House.

The point Nate Silver addresses in the linked tweet within the article is one that really bugs the crap out of me. It really does go to dishonesty at this point.

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2020/05/18/deep-dive-inside-new-yorks-disastrous-coronavirus-response-n2568956

(05-18-2020 11:12 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(05-18-2020 10:58 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  Here is a bit of an eyeopener for those who want to just wag their finger at The White House.

The point Nate Silver addresses in the linked tweet within the article is one that really bugs the crap out of me. It really does go to dishonesty at this point.

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2020/05/18/deep-dive-inside-new-yorks-disastrous-coronavirus-response-n2568956

I think anyone that has followed closely should understand that more tests = more positives but what does that have to do with how the white house screwed this all up?

(05-18-2020 11:08 AM)smudge12 Wrote:  It simply means telling them to stay home (or the hospital if it's serious), just like right now and every other time we've had viral outbreaks. There's nothing sinister at play here.

Contact tracing is trying to figure out everyone they've been in contact with, or have contacted.

Doing those two things is nothing different than the norm, and how the US and other nations have always handled outbreaks.

(05-18-2020 11:39 AM)smudge12 Wrote:  

(05-18-2020 11:24 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude ....

If we can but prevent the government from wasting the labours of the people, under the pretence of taking care of them ....

-- Thos. Jefferson

Interestingly if Jefferson was alive today, he'd likely throw out the current Constitution, even as a strict Constitutionalist during his time.

I say that only to point out the Founding Fathers, like all humans, had very complex philosophical viewpoints. It's very easy to pick and choose their quotes without understanding the person as a whole, and the passage of time certainly never helps.

(05-18-2020 10:54 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  Sounds like some of you would have been in favor of testing everyone regardless of symptoms and consent and throwing those that tested positive, regardless of symptoms and consent, into some kind of concentration camp.

Sure we could have taken such draconian measures and probably would have ended up with lower numbers, but that was never going to happen. I'm actually surprised the quarantine lasted as long as it did, but some of you sound like you'd be more comfortable in a different type of country.

(05-18-2020 11:56 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(05-18-2020 11:39 AM)smudge12 Wrote:  

(05-18-2020 11:24 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude ....

If we can but prevent the government from wasting the labours of the people, under the pretence of taking care of them ....

-- Thos. Jefferson

Interestingly if Jefferson was alive today, he'd likely throw out the current Constitution, even as a strict Constitutionalist during his time.

I say that only to point out the Founding Fathers, like all humans, had very complex philosophical viewpoints. It's very easy to pick and choose their quotes without understanding the person as a whole, and the passage of time certainly never helps.

You think the colonialists didn't have epidemics? They wouldn't have lasted 2 weeks in Jamestown before going back to England and if they came back Yellow Fever, Smallpox, and Malaria would have never let them work with modern prevailing logic. Coronavirus is nothing compared to that.