(11-17-2020 10:17 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  Lockdowns have one effect for sure: Making poor people poorer.

Listen, this virus is real. And it sucks. But, the world doesn't have a magical potion to stop a virus from spreading. Protecting the vulnerable means that, as best as we can, we make sure nursing homes and hospitals have the resources necessary to care for their patients. Elderly people who want to be protected should stay home and let modern capitalist technology (Thanks, Amazon!) serve them. The rest of us should live our normal lives. Some will get sick. Some will die.

I get that this isn't something we like to talk about. I promise, I'm not trying to be callous. But, it's the reality of life and death.

(11-17-2020 09:46 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(11-17-2020 09:36 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(11-17-2020 09:26 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(11-17-2020 09:14 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(11-17-2020 08:41 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  Like I said, y'all come on out to SWVA and see how compliant people are being with masks.

1 death is too many? We'll be pushing 2,000/ day very soon. We've passed a quarter million already and will likely double that by spring. What greater damage are you referring to? Economic? Depression? Those have remedies. The wildfire that is currently the Covid spread could only be contained by a lockdown. I'm not sure these half measures are worth the trouble though.

Europe has proven that lockdowns don't work. The virus just came back with a vengeance as soon as the restrictions were lifted. I get that you have a gut reaction telling you somebody has to do something, but the something doesn't work, and it causes massive problems. We shouldn't do something just for the sake of saying we are doing something. Sometimes there just isn't an easy answer that you can fit on a bumper sticker.

No it didn't. It was controlled through most of the summer and are just now having a fall/winter surge that has taken it out of control. Take a look at some new daily cases graphs. Covid fatigue is likely to blame there as well as it is here. It's about to get real ugly though.

Or, contrarily, the virus is just going to virus weather you strap a washcloth to your face, close bars at 10pm, vote for a democrat, or anything else short of welding people into their homes. We should place our focus where it matter. Where it has always mattered, the vulnerable.

People keep saying that but don't seem to have a plan to protect the "vulnerable". The best way is to control community spread. The best way to do that is to reduce the infections to a manageable number and use contact tracing, quarantining and isolation to keep the numbers low. The ONLY way to get to that point from the point we are now is a serious nationwide lockdown. Or wait for spring and a vaccine.

(11-17-2020 10:53 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  Also, why do we still not have concrete data on what it means to be a vulnerable person? Why isn't there a matrix of conditions and the resulting threat level that one or a combination of them leads to. We have been at this for nearly a year now. Surely that data exists. My guess is we don't have that data because they are afraid that we will realize that almost nobody is vulnerable and people would stop listening to their panic porn.

(11-17-2020 10:46 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(11-17-2020 09:46 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(11-17-2020 09:36 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(11-17-2020 09:26 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(11-17-2020 09:14 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  Europe has proven that lockdowns don't work. The virus just came back with a vengeance as soon as the restrictions were lifted. I get that you have a gut reaction telling you somebody has to do something, but the something doesn't work, and it causes massive problems. We shouldn't do something just for the sake of saying we are doing something. Sometimes there just isn't an easy answer that you can fit on a bumper sticker.

No it didn't. It was controlled through most of the summer and are just now having a fall/winter surge that has taken it out of control. Take a look at some new daily cases graphs. Covid fatigue is likely to blame there as well as it is here. It's about to get real ugly though.

Or, contrarily, the virus is just going to virus weather you strap a washcloth to your face, close bars at 10pm, vote for a democrat, or anything else short of welding people into their homes. We should place our focus where it matter. Where it has always mattered, the vulnerable.

People keep saying that but don't seem to have a plan to protect the "vulnerable". The best way is to control community spread. The best way to do that is to reduce the infections to a manageable number and use contact tracing, quarantining and isolation to keep the numbers low. The ONLY way to get to that point from the point we are now is a serious nationwide lockdown. Or wait for spring and a vaccine.

If all the focus was not placed on masks and how and when to implement the next lockdown, maybe a plan to protect the vulnerable could be constructed. We have a president elect who just stands up there like Mr Magoo waving a mask yelling "wear the damn mask" all day while his future COVID team is just running around screaming lockdown as they cancel holidays. Maybe if all these idiots spent less time on TV yelling into the ether about lockdowns they could find the time to construct a meaningful plan that protects the vulnerable from COVID while protecting the rest of us from all of the horrible side effects of purely political actions that are designed to do nothing but show us how much they care about the virus.

(11-17-2020 11:56 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  Don't mean to antagonize you further, mturn, but when it comes to this virus the high priests and priestesses who think they know what is best for us have lost my trust. Hyperbole, lies and hypocrisy have a way of doing that. And I cannot speak for others, but I suspect that they have lost the trust of a significant portion of the American population. People are going to go to church. The are going to gather for Thanksgiving and Christmas. They are going to live their lives in a non-fearful manner.

No one on this board is telling you that you are not entitled to take whatever steps you think appropriate to keep yourself and your loved ones safe. I regret that you seem to think that I and others shouldn't have the same freedom of choice when it comes to exercising basic liberties.

(11-17-2020 10:53 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  Also, why do we still not have concrete data on what it means to be a vulnerable person? Why isn't there a matrix of conditions and the resulting threat level that one or a combination of them leads to. We have been at this for nearly a year now. Surely that data exists. My guess is we don't have that data because they are afraid that we will realize that almost nobody is vulnerable and people would stop listening to their panic porn.

(11-17-2020 10:33 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  Sweet...I'm going for the Triple Post. But, here's my contention: Rather than preaching masks and social distancing, we ought to realize that, at best, these are short term band aids on the real problem, which is an unhealthy society.

Let's preach diet, exercise, sleep, and sunlight. I'm fairly convinced these are far more effective to stop the spread of this, and just about every, virus than an old t-shirt over your face.

(11-17-2020 09:14 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(11-17-2020 08:41 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(11-16-2020 07:09 PM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  I can back up Chillie on this one. There are surprising differences in mask usage among the various Norfolk zip codes. For the record, if the place of business says masks required, I wear one.

But this does not displace Coach’s greater point:

(11-16-2020 12:46 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  The problem with the masks mandates is that you cannot argue against them. If cases go down, "Masks work!" if cases go up, "You need to wear MORE masks."

There is literally no argument to which the proponents of masks will listen.

Your 92-year-old grandma needs to be careful, Chillie, as do diabetics, the obese, immuno-compromised, etc.

My assistant’s 8-yr.-old and 11-yr.-old daughters, and my colleague’s middle-school and high-school kids do not need to be careful.

Most important, the “one death is too many” crowd needs to knock it off, and pay some heed to the greater damage they are doing with their unbalanced overreaction to this virus. This is my main beef with masks: they have become a go-to excuse for perpetuating lockdowns by those who seem to think that others should bear the brunt of their fears - - whether real or not. Masks are almost beside the point. It is the needless lockdowns that will destroy us.

Like I said, y'all come on out to SWVA and see how compliant people are being with masks.

1 death is too many? We'll be pushing 2,000/ day very soon. We've passed a quarter million already and will likely double that by spring. What greater damage are you referring to? Economic? Depression? Those have remedies. The wildfire that is currently the Covid spread could only be contained by a lockdown. I'm not sure these half measures are worth the trouble though.

Europe has proven that lockdowns don't work. The virus just came back with a vengeance as soon as the restrictions were lifted. I get that you have a gut reaction telling you somebody has to do something, but the something doesn't work, and it causes massive problems. We shouldn't do something just for the sake of saying we are doing something. Sometimes there just isn't an easy answer that you can fit on a bumper sticker.

(11-17-2020 10:21 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  Side note: Shoutout to the Chesapeake School Board who decided last night they will continue with their Return to School Plan. They haven't always done what I've hoped, but this decision gives me hope that they are "following the science" and doing their best.

Meanwhile, VBCPS decided to return to virtual learning, despite acknowledging that there is no evidence that open schools lead to any additional community spread.

(11-17-2020 01:00 PM)Chillie Willie Wrote:  

(11-17-2020 10:21 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  Side note: Shoutout to the Chesapeake School Board who decided last night they will continue with their Return to School Plan. They haven't always done what I've hoped, but this decision gives me hope that they are "following the science" and doing their best.

Meanwhile, VBCPS decided to return to virtual learning, despite acknowledging that there is no evidence that open schools lead to any additional community spread.

Congratulations to Chesapeake. Although I know one family there that is very upset about this.

(11-17-2020 10:46 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(11-17-2020 09:46 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(11-17-2020 09:36 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(11-17-2020 09:26 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(11-17-2020 09:14 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  Europe has proven that lockdowns don't work. The virus just came back with a vengeance as soon as the restrictions were lifted. I get that you have a gut reaction telling you somebody has to do something, but the something doesn't work, and it causes massive problems. We shouldn't do something just for the sake of saying we are doing something. Sometimes there just isn't an easy answer that you can fit on a bumper sticker.

No it didn't. It was controlled through most of the summer and are just now having a fall/winter surge that has taken it out of control. Take a look at some new daily cases graphs. Covid fatigue is likely to blame there as well as it is here. It's about to get real ugly though.

Or, contrarily, the virus is just going to virus weather you strap a washcloth to your face, close bars at 10pm, vote for a democrat, or anything else short of welding people into their homes. We should place our focus where it matter. Where it has always mattered, the vulnerable.

People keep saying that but don't seem to have a plan to protect the "vulnerable". The best way is to control community spread. The best way to do that is to reduce the infections to a manageable number and use contact tracing, quarantining and isolation to keep the numbers low. The ONLY way to get to that point from the point we are now is a serious nationwide lockdown. Or wait for spring and a vaccine.

If all the focus was not placed on masks and how and when to implement the next lockdown, maybe a plan to protect the vulnerable could be constructed. We have a president elect who just stands up there like Mr Magoo waving a mask yelling "wear the damn mask" all day while his future COVID team is just running around screaming lockdown as they cancel holidays. Maybe if all these idiots spent less time on TV yelling into the ether about lockdowns they could find the time to construct a meaningful plan that protects the vulnerable from COVID while protecting the rest of us from all of the horrible side effects of purely political actions that are designed to do nothing but show us how much they care about the virus.

(11-17-2020 01:07 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

(11-17-2020 01:00 PM)Chillie Willie Wrote:  

(11-17-2020 10:21 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  Side note: Shoutout to the Chesapeake School Board who decided last night they will continue with their Return to School Plan. They haven't always done what I've hoped, but this decision gives me hope that they are "following the science" and doing their best.

Meanwhile, VBCPS decided to return to virtual learning, despite acknowledging that there is no evidence that open schools lead to any additional community spread.

Congratulations to Chesapeake. Although I know one family there that is very upset about this.

Upset about what? They are given the option of staying online.

(11-17-2020 11:56 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  Don't mean to antagonize you further, mturn, but when it comes to this virus the high priests and priestesses who think they know what is best for us have lost my trust. Hyperbole, lies and hypocrisy have a way of doing that. And I cannot speak for others, but I suspect that they have lost the trust of a significant portion of the American population. People are going to go to church. The are going to gather for Thanksgiving and Christmas. They are going to live their lives in a non-fearful manner.

No one on this board is telling you that you are not entitled to take whatever steps you think appropriate to keep yourself and your loved ones safe. I regret that you seem to think that I and others shouldn't have the same freedom of choice when it comes to exercising basic liberties.

(11-17-2020 01:10 PM)Chillie Willie Wrote:  Didn’t know that so not exactly sure. I just know they were complaining about in-person school. Maybe they will choose to opt out.

(11-17-2020 10:40 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  Last one the working poor came out pretty good as I understand it. And they spent their money leading to better than expected economic growth. Meanwhile the wealthy have been saving money at record rates this year. Fat lot of good those tax breaks are doing for our economy. If you're not going to provide stimulus then yeah, a lockdown can be economically devastating. So can a prolonged widespread pandemic though. I'm certainly not going to go about my life as normal until I'm vaccinated. And equally likely to cause depression to a lockdown, having family members die.

People like to act like we're powerless against this virus but the truth is they're not willing to do the work. Over 50% of the country have a condition that would put them at risk for complications, many still have to work. But hey, they should have to choose between their health and liveleyhood so that Coach can watch a volleyball game. People are going to die, the economy is going to take a hit. But your solution is callous. Sweden tried it and where are they now? Living with tougher restrictions than VA with a lot of unnecessary deaths in the spring and no notable economic gain to show. Some people just want to choose the worst of both worlds.

(11-17-2020 01:16 PM)Chillie Willie Wrote:  

(11-17-2020 11:56 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  Don't mean to antagonize you further, mturn, but when it comes to this virus the high priests and priestesses who think they know what is best for us have lost my trust. Hyperbole, lies and hypocrisy have a way of doing that. And I cannot speak for others, but I suspect that they have lost the trust of a significant portion of the American population. People are going to go to church. The are going to gather for Thanksgiving and Christmas. They are going to live their lives in a non-fearful manner.

No one on this board is telling you that you are not entitled to take whatever steps you think appropriate to keep yourself and your loved ones safe. I regret that you seem to think that I and others shouldn't have the same freedom of choice when it comes to exercising basic liberties.

Absolutely. The level of lies and deceit from our leaders is at an all time high. Politicians have never been overall trustworthy. But the divide is so wide at this point I’m not sure it will ever fully recover.

Edit: It is so easy to fact check these days. Everything a politician says is immediately fact-checked by the media. And now even Twitter and Facebook are putting out disclaimers. It is unfathomable to me how anyone can believe that they can get away with a lie unless they absolutely believe what they are saying is true.

(11-17-2020 01:35 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

(11-17-2020 10:40 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  Last one the working poor came out pretty good as I understand it. And they spent their money leading to better than expected economic growth. Meanwhile the wealthy have been saving money at record rates this year. Fat lot of good those tax breaks are doing for our economy. If you're not going to provide stimulus then yeah, a lockdown can be economically devastating. So can a prolonged widespread pandemic though. I'm certainly not going to go about my life as normal until I'm vaccinated. And equally likely to cause depression to a lockdown, having family members die.

People like to act like we're powerless against this virus but the truth is they're not willing to do the work. Over 50% of the country have a condition that would put them at risk for complications, many still have to work. But hey, they should have to choose between their health and liveleyhood so that Coach can watch a volleyball game. People are going to die, the economy is going to take a hit. But your solution is callous. Sweden tried it and where are they now? Living with tougher restrictions than VA with a lot of unnecessary deaths in the spring and no notable economic gain to show. Some people just want to choose the worst of both worlds.

Did the poor come out ok? Do you know a lot of really poor people? $1,200 did not help them after about one month. I work with a ministry locally that provides food to the poor, and from the volume of phone calls we've been receiving, I'm not so sure they are doing ok. But, you're welcome to join us on Saturday morning when we're passing out food to see how it's going.

The wealthy have been saving money because the government won't allow them to spend their money. No vacations. No pro sports. No movies. No dinners out.

Unfortunately, I'm not surprised that your answer is to send a stimulus to shut everyone up and then shut everything down. That's the liberal way. Make the people depend on the government.

And to criticize me for wanting to see my daughter play volleyball? Have at it. I don't care. You know nothing about me. Would you bash a mom who had Stage 4 cancer and just wanted to see her child play one more time? Of course not. Thankfully, I'm not in that situation. But, my point is that you don't know enough about me and my situation to criticize me for wanting to make certain decisions. And, certainly, the government doesn't have the information either. And, to be fair, I don't have enough knowledge of your situation to criticize you. So, you live the life you deem is best for your family and I'll do the same.

(11-17-2020 02:20 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  But I more so want my son to have memories of his grandparents. I'm criticizing you because your plan is to let all the young, healthy people go about their business spreading the virus freely thus making it more dangerous for those unfortunate enough to not be in that category and........good luck? People die, hope that doesn't sound callous? Is that the Conservative way? Personally I'm willing to temporarily forgo a few of my pleasures to make just living easier for others.