(08-29-2020 07:18 AM)smudge12 Wrote:  We don't know the long-term effects of the virus. Some people still struggle months after the fact.

I wouldn't put kids up against that risk, and certainly not adult teachers who could get sick or die.

(08-29-2020 07:35 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  

(08-29-2020 07:18 AM)smudge12 Wrote:  We don't know the long-term effects of the virus. Some people still struggle months after the fact.

I wouldn't put kids up against that risk, and certainly not adult teachers who could get sick or die.

That's a very generous and compassionate position. Progressives are clearly the more noble and virtuous among us.

But for those of us taxpayers - - who have had to forfeit our retirement in order to keep our employees paid - - may we be forgiven for our small-minded moments of thinking that these essential teachers take maybe just a modest pay cut for the time they choose not to work? After all, the ultimate costs of keeping these precious teachers feeling safe and comfy during this never-ending pandemic is inevitably being shifted to parents (and ultimately to their private-sector employers) to cover the additional costs/accommodations of arranging for childcare.

Okay, whatever am I thinking? This is all about taking care of the favored constituencies - - of which our public-sector teachers are clearly top of the heap. Carry on.

(08-29-2020 09:04 AM)Chillie Willie Wrote:  

(08-29-2020 07:35 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  

(08-29-2020 07:18 AM)smudge12 Wrote:  We don't know the long-term effects of the virus. Some people still struggle months after the fact.

I wouldn't put kids up against that risk, and certainly not adult teachers who could get sick or die.

That's a very generous and compassionate position. Progressives are clearly the more noble and virtuous among us.

But for those of us taxpayers - - who have had to forfeit our retirement in order to keep our employees paid - - may we be forgiven for our small-minded moments of thinking that these essential teachers take maybe just a modest pay cut for the time they choose not to work? After all, the ultimate costs of keeping these precious teachers feeling safe and comfy during this never-ending pandemic is inevitably being shifted to parents (and ultimately to their private-sector employers) to cover the additional costs/accommodations of arranging for childcare.

Okay, whatever am I thinking? This is all about taking care of the favored constituencies - - of which our public-sector teachers are clearly top of the heap. Carry on.

I am sorry to hear of your hardship keeping your employees paid. This is a difficult time for many small business owners so you are not alone. I am not one of them so I don’t have a full understanding. You are probably aware of this so don’t attack me if I am stating the obvious, but I have heard that there are payroll assistance programs that are available to help small businesses stay afloat during the pandemic. Maybe you already participate or just choose not to, I don’t know. Or maybe it’s just not enough.

That said, I am not in favor of pay cuts for teachers. If teachers choose not to work by quitting their job, they should not be paid at all. But if they choose to take paid leave that is their prerogative and they should receive their full salary. But I doubt they have enough leave to get them through this pandemic so they will have to get back to teaching at some point. If you are saying they should just generally take a pay cut because they are teaching virtually vs. in person, I do not agree. I am currently teleworking full time. Should I take a pay cut also?

(08-29-2020 09:27 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  

(08-29-2020 09:04 AM)Chillie Willie Wrote:  

(08-29-2020 07:35 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  

(08-29-2020 07:18 AM)smudge12 Wrote:  We don't know the long-term effects of the virus. Some people still struggle months after the fact.

I wouldn't put kids up against that risk, and certainly not adult teachers who could get sick or die.

That's a very generous and compassionate position. Progressives are clearly the more noble and virtuous among us.

But for those of us taxpayers - - who have had to forfeit our retirement in order to keep our employees paid - - may we be forgiven for our small-minded moments of thinking that these essential teachers take maybe just a modest pay cut for the time they choose not to work? After all, the ultimate costs of keeping these precious teachers feeling safe and comfy during this never-ending pandemic is inevitably being shifted to parents (and ultimately to their private-sector employers) to cover the additional costs/accommodations of arranging for childcare.

Okay, whatever am I thinking? This is all about taking care of the favored constituencies - - of which our public-sector teachers are clearly top of the heap. Carry on.

I am sorry to hear of your hardship keeping your employees paid. This is a difficult time for many small business owners so you are not alone. I am not one of them so I don’t have a full understanding. You are probably aware of this so don’t attack me if I am stating the obvious, but I have heard that there are payroll assistance programs that are available to help small businesses stay afloat during the pandemic. Maybe you already participate or just choose not to, I don’t know. Or maybe it’s just not enough.

That said, I am not in favor of pay cuts for teachers. If teachers choose not to work by quitting their job, they should not be paid at all. But if they choose to take paid leave that is their prerogative and they should receive their full salary. But I doubt they have enough leave to get them through this pandemic so they will have to get back to teaching at some point. If you are saying they should just generally take a pay cut because they are teaching virtually vs. in person, I do not agree. I am currently teleworking full time. Should I take a pay cut also?

This is a very thoughtful reply - - as is that from smudge. My son, by the way, is 100% in behind the course of action that you guys outline. Kindness and openness seems to be a trait of the young.

But so is naivete. And, from my pre-senile standpoint, what you both are suggesting is completely un-tethered from economic and societal reality. The past 25 weeks of lockdown did not fail for poor implementation. [b]It failed because it was NEVER going to work. [/b]This is a very contagious virus. We are human beings. It is going to spread and it is going to have bad (and in some instances lethal) consequences.

Yet we haven't helped matters by going into lockdown. We've made them worse. Much worse. That so many cannot open their eyes and see this as clearly as I do makes me think that I may just be the one who is nuts.

Yes, this has been hard on my business, and has required a substantial change to my life plans. But I am still far better off than many. We all are going to need to brace for much, much worse consequences of having unnecessarily shut down our nation - - ones that will have nothing to do with the virus.

(08-29-2020 09:27 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  

(08-29-2020 09:04 AM)Chillie Willie Wrote:  

(08-29-2020 07:35 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  

(08-29-2020 07:18 AM)smudge12 Wrote:  We don't know the long-term effects of the virus. Some people still struggle months after the fact.

I wouldn't put kids up against that risk, and certainly not adult teachers who could get sick or die.

That's a very generous and compassionate position. Progressives are clearly the more noble and virtuous among us.

But for those of us taxpayers - - who have had to forfeit our retirement in order to keep our employees paid - - may we be forgiven for our small-minded moments of thinking that these essential teachers take maybe just a modest pay cut for the time they choose not to work? After all, the ultimate costs of keeping these precious teachers feeling safe and comfy during this never-ending pandemic is inevitably being shifted to parents (and ultimately to their private-sector employers) to cover the additional costs/accommodations of arranging for childcare.

Okay, whatever am I thinking? This is all about taking care of the favored constituencies - - of which our public-sector teachers are clearly top of the heap. Carry on.

I am sorry to hear of your hardship keeping your employees paid. This is a difficult time for many small business owners so you are not alone. I am not one of them so I don’t have a full understanding. You are probably aware of this so don’t attack me if I am stating the obvious, but I have heard that there are payroll assistance programs that are available to help small businesses stay afloat during the pandemic. Maybe you already participate or just choose not to, I don’t know. Or maybe it’s just not enough.

That said, I am not in favor of pay cuts for teachers. If teachers choose not to work by quitting their job, they should not be paid at all. But if they choose to take paid leave that is their prerogative and they should receive their full salary. But I doubt they have enough leave to get them through this pandemic so they will have to get back to teaching at some point. If you are saying they should just generally take a pay cut because they are teaching virtually vs. in person, I do not agree. I am currently teleworking full time. Should I take a pay cut also?

This is a very thoughtful reply - - as is that from smudge. My son, by the way, is 100% in behind the course of action that you guys outline. Kindness and openness seems to be a trait of the young.

But so is naivete. And, from my pre-senile standpoint, what you both are suggesting is completely un-tethered from economic and societal reality. The past 25 weeks of lockdown did not fail for poor implementation. It failed because it was NEVER going to work. This is a very contagious virus. We are human beings. It is going to spread and it is going to have bad (and in some instances lethal) consequences.

Yet we haven't helped matters by going into lockdown. We've made them worse. Much worse. That so many cannot open their eyes and see this as clearly as I do makes me think that I may just be the one who is nuts.

Yes, this has been hard on my business, and has required a substantial change to my life plans. But I am still far better off than many. We all are going to need to brace for much, much worse consequences of having unnecessarily shut down our nation - - ones that will have nothing to do with the virus.

(08-29-2020 11:06 AM)Chillie Willie Wrote:  

(08-29-2020 09:27 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  

(08-29-2020 09:04 AM)Chillie Willie Wrote:  

(08-29-2020 07:35 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  

(08-29-2020 07:18 AM)smudge12 Wrote:  We don't know the long-term effects of the virus. Some people still struggle months after the fact.

I wouldn't put kids up against that risk, and certainly not adult teachers who could get sick or die.

That's a very generous and compassionate position. Progressives are clearly the more noble and virtuous among us.

But for those of us taxpayers - - who have had to forfeit our retirement in order to keep our employees paid - - may we be forgiven for our small-minded moments of thinking that these essential teachers take maybe just a modest pay cut for the time they choose not to work? After all, the ultimate costs of keeping these precious teachers feeling safe and comfy during this never-ending pandemic is inevitably being shifted to parents (and ultimately to their private-sector employers) to cover the additional costs/accommodations of arranging for childcare.

Okay, whatever am I thinking? This is all about taking care of the favored constituencies - - of which our public-sector teachers are clearly top of the heap. Carry on.

I am sorry to hear of your hardship keeping your employees paid. This is a difficult time for many small business owners so you are not alone. I am not one of them so I don’t have a full understanding. You are probably aware of this so don’t attack me if I am stating the obvious, but I have heard that there are payroll assistance programs that are available to help small businesses stay afloat during the pandemic. Maybe you already participate or just choose not to, I don’t know. Or maybe it’s just not enough.

That said, I am not in favor of pay cuts for teachers. If teachers choose not to work by quitting their job, they should not be paid at all. But if they choose to take paid leave that is their prerogative and they should receive their full salary. But I doubt they have enough leave to get them through this pandemic so they will have to get back to teaching at some point. If you are saying they should just generally take a pay cut because they are teaching virtually vs. in person, I do not agree. I am currently teleworking full time. Should I take a pay cut also?

This is a very thoughtful reply - - as is that from smudge. My son, by the way, is 100% in behind the course of action that you guys outline. Kindness and openness seems to be a trait of the young.

But so is naivete. And, from my pre-senile standpoint, what you both are suggesting is completely un-tethered from economic and societal reality. The past 25 weeks of lockdown did not fail for poor implementation. It failed because it was NEVER going to work. This is a very contagious virus. We are human beings. It is going to spread and it is going to have bad (and in some instances lethal) consequences.

Yet we haven't helped matters by going into lockdown. We've made them worse. Much worse. That so many cannot open their eyes and see this as clearly as I do makes me think that I may just be the one who is nuts.

Yes, this has been hard on my business, and has required a substantial change to my life plans. But I am still far better off than many. We all are going to need to brace for much, much worse consequences of having unnecessarily shut down our nation - - ones that will have nothing to do with the virus.

I’m not sure why you are lumping me in with smudge. I feel like there is a middle ground between you and smudge and that is where I am at. I am in favor of preventative measures such as masks and social distancing and mandating them only in certain situations. I am not in favor of a complete lockdown after the initial few weeks early in the pandemic. I agree that this cannot be eradicated, but simple measures can reduce the transmission and much less people get sick. I am not in favor of the “it is what it is” strategy to meet herd immunity. I’m not even sure herd immunity is possible. This may be with us for a long time if not forever much like the common cold or flu. After we’ve been through this a while and we understand the risks, then people can take their own precautions much as we do for the flu. And I expect a vaccine at some point in the near future that will give us more options.

Also, I’m not sure how young you think I am but I am probably much older than you think. I’d like to think I’m past the point of being naive but I’ve been accused of worse.

(08-29-2020 08:59 AM)smudge12 Wrote:  Not at all, everyone is important in this.

This is why we need a national, holistic, unified plan.

Look at what I said very early in this thread. Instead of mass bailouts, people losing their jobs, and a one-time $1200 stimulus, I think we need to do a national lock down until contact tracing becomes viable. Let's do it before we experience the (probable) winter surge:

1. All but essential businesses close. Essential would be grocery stores, farms, healthcare facilities, gas stations, etc.

2. All loans are paused and interest can't be accumulated during the pause. No one owes anyone to anything (individuals/businesses owe nothing to lenders, lenders owe nothing to the Fed).

Landlords who owe nothing can apply for gov't assistance due to lost income.

3. Temporary universal healthcare is provided.

4. Federal salary assistance is provided.

Points 3 and 4 allow people who are still working to take time off if they're sick while still being paid. This takes the financial burden off both the employee and employer, and lessens the risk people will go into work sick as they'll know they'll be protected.

5. A temporary national education program is provided through radio, television, and internet.

6. Salaries are paused for non-essential employees. Employers owe nothing to employees.

7. A temporary stipend for food and essential items is provided to every American, scaled per household. As no one owes anything to anyone and healthcare is provided, the stipend doesn't have to be that much.

8. Once the virus is contained and the lock down ends, a stimulus check is provided to every American in order to help jump start the economy and get people to spend money.

I don't want anyone's business to suffer; I don't want children to be unable to go to school; I don't want people to die. But at some point - as Americans - we must take responsibility for our nation.

We will continue to suffer if we do the same thing over and over: half-ass lock downs, no unified plan between states, chaotic contact tracing, optional mask policies, etc. I'm not a fan of nationalism, but this is a rare moment where it's important.

In the end, I'd rather we suffer for a short period of time if it means we're not continually stabbed for months on end. At this point, we've suffered more economically (and socially) than had we sucked it up and put everything on a hold for a month or two.

The window to contain this thing before winter is shortening and we need a national plan by yesterday. My idea is probably flawed - I'm just some dude on a message board - but at least it's something. I'd like to see that from our "leaders."

(08-29-2020 08:59 AM)smudge12 Wrote:  Not at all, everyone is important in this.

This is why we need a national, holistic, unified plan.

Look at what I said very early in this thread. Instead of mass bailouts, people losing their jobs, and a one-time $1200 stimulus, I think we need to do a national lock down until contact tracing becomes viable. Let's do it before we experience the (probable) winter surge:

1. All but essential businesses close. Essential would be grocery stores, farms, healthcare facilities, gas stations, etc.

2. All loans are paused and interest can't be accumulated during the pause. No one owes anyone to anything (individuals/businesses owe nothing to lenders, lenders owe nothing to the Fed).

Landlords who owe nothing can apply for gov't assistance due to lost income.

3. Temporary universal healthcare is provided.

4. Federal salary assistance is provided.

Points 3 and 4 allow people who are still working to take time off if they're sick while still being paid. This takes the financial burden off both the employee and employer, and lessens the risk people will go into work sick as they'll know they'll be protected.

5. A temporary national education program is provided through radio, television, and internet.

6. Salaries are paused for non-essential employees. Employers owe nothing to employees.

7. A temporary stipend for food and essential items is provided to every American, scaled per household. As no one owes anything to anyone and healthcare is provided, the stipend doesn't have to be that much.

8. Once the virus is contained and the lock down ends, a stimulus check is provided to every American in order to help jump start the economy and get people to spend money.

I don't want anyone's business to suffer; I don't want children to be unable to go to school; I don't want people to die. But at some point - as Americans - we must take responsibility for our nation.

We will continue to suffer if we do the same thing over and over: half-ass lock downs, no unified plan between states, chaotic contact tracing, optional mask policies, etc. I'm not a fan of nationalism, but this is a rare moment where it's important.

In the end, I'd rather we suffer for a short period of time if it means we're not continually stabbed for months on end. At this point, we've suffered more economically (and socially) than had we sucked it up and put everything on a hold for a month or two.

The window to contain this thing before winter is shortening and we need a national plan by yesterday. My idea is probably flawed - I'm just some dude on a message board - but at least it's something. I'd like to see that from our "leaders."

(08-29-2020 06:14 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(08-29-2020 08:59 AM)smudge12 Wrote:  Not at all, everyone is important in this.

This is why we need a national, holistic, unified plan.

Look at what I said very early in this thread. Instead of mass bailouts, people losing their jobs, and a one-time $1200 stimulus, I think we need to do a national lock down until contact tracing becomes viable. Let's do it before we experience the (probable) winter surge:

1. All but essential businesses close. Essential would be grocery stores, farms, healthcare facilities, gas stations, etc.

2. All loans are paused and interest can't be accumulated during the pause. No one owes anyone to anything (individuals/businesses owe nothing to lenders, lenders owe nothing to the Fed).

Landlords who owe nothing can apply for gov't assistance due to lost income.

3. Temporary universal healthcare is provided.

4. Federal salary assistance is provided.

Points 3 and 4 allow people who are still working to take time off if they're sick while still being paid. This takes the financial burden off both the employee and employer, and lessens the risk people will go into work sick as they'll know they'll be protected.

5. A temporary national education program is provided through radio, television, and internet.

6. Salaries are paused for non-essential employees. Employers owe nothing to employees.

7. A temporary stipend for food and essential items is provided to every American, scaled per household. As no one owes anything to anyone and healthcare is provided, the stipend doesn't have to be that much.

8. Once the virus is contained and the lock down ends, a stimulus check is provided to every American in order to help jump start the economy and get people to spend money.

I don't want anyone's business to suffer; I don't want children to be unable to go to school; I don't want people to die. But at some point - as Americans - we must take responsibility for our nation.

We will continue to suffer if we do the same thing over and over: half-ass lock downs, no unified plan between states, chaotic contact tracing, optional mask policies, etc. I'm not a fan of nationalism, but this is a rare moment where it's important.

In the end, I'd rather we suffer for a short period of time if it means we're not continually stabbed for months on end. At this point, we've suffered more economically (and socially) than had we sucked it up and put everything on a hold for a month or two.

The window to contain this thing before winter is shortening and we need a national plan by yesterday. My idea is probably flawed - I'm just some dude on a message board - but at least it's something. I'd like to see that from our "leaders."

Welcome to communism. Enjoy.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

(08-29-2020 08:04 PM)Prideofalion Wrote:  

(08-29-2020 06:14 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(08-29-2020 08:59 AM)smudge12 Wrote:  Not at all, everyone is important in this.

This is why we need a national, holistic, unified plan.

Look at what I said very early in this thread. Instead of mass bailouts, people losing their jobs, and a one-time $1200 stimulus, I think we need to do a national lock down until contact tracing becomes viable. Let's do it before we experience the (probable) winter surge:

1. All but essential businesses close. Essential would be grocery stores, farms, healthcare facilities, gas stations, etc.

2. All loans are paused and interest can't be accumulated during the pause. No one owes anyone to anything (individuals/businesses owe nothing to lenders, lenders owe nothing to the Fed).

Landlords who owe nothing can apply for gov't assistance due to lost income.

3. Temporary universal healthcare is provided.

4. Federal salary assistance is provided.

Points 3 and 4 allow people who are still working to take time off if they're sick while still being paid. This takes the financial burden off both the employee and employer, and lessens the risk people will go into work sick as they'll know they'll be protected.

5. A temporary national education program is provided through radio, television, and internet.

6. Salaries are paused for non-essential employees. Employers owe nothing to employees.

7. A temporary stipend for food and essential items is provided to every American, scaled per household. As no one owes anything to anyone and healthcare is provided, the stipend doesn't have to be that much.

8. Once the virus is contained and the lock down ends, a stimulus check is provided to every American in order to help jump start the economy and get people to spend money.

I don't want anyone's business to suffer; I don't want children to be unable to go to school; I don't want people to die. But at some point - as Americans - we must take responsibility for our nation.

We will continue to suffer if we do the same thing over and over: half-ass lock downs, no unified plan between states, chaotic contact tracing, optional mask policies, etc. I'm not a fan of nationalism, but this is a rare moment where it's important.

In the end, I'd rather we suffer for a short period of time if it means we're not continually stabbed for months on end. At this point, we've suffered more economically (and socially) than had we sucked it up and put everything on a hold for a month or two.

The window to contain this thing before winter is shortening and we need a national plan by yesterday. My idea is probably flawed - I'm just some dude on a message board - but at least it's something. I'd like to see that from our "leaders."

Welcome to communism. Enjoy.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

What a nightmare. Didn’t take them long to get people to jump on board either. It’s like they don’t even realize that it’s Communism that they are supporting. Hell people riot the streets on a regular basis now to have their rights taken away... wtf

(08-29-2020 08:04 PM)Prideofalion Wrote:  

(08-29-2020 06:14 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(08-29-2020 08:59 AM)smudge12 Wrote:  Not at all, everyone is important in this.

This is why we need a national, holistic, unified plan.

Look at what I said very early in this thread. Instead of mass bailouts, people losing their jobs, and a one-time $1200 stimulus, I think we need to do a national lock down until contact tracing becomes viable. Let's do it before we experience the (probable) winter surge:

1. All but essential businesses close. Essential would be grocery stores, farms, healthcare facilities, gas stations, etc.

2. All loans are paused and interest can't be accumulated during the pause. No one owes anyone to anything (individuals/businesses owe nothing to lenders, lenders owe nothing to the Fed).

Landlords who owe nothing can apply for gov't assistance due to lost income.

3. Temporary universal healthcare is provided.

4. Federal salary assistance is provided.

Points 3 and 4 allow people who are still working to take time off if they're sick while still being paid. This takes the financial burden off both the employee and employer, and lessens the risk people will go into work sick as they'll know they'll be protected.

5. A temporary national education program is provided through radio, television, and internet.

6. Salaries are paused for non-essential employees. Employers owe nothing to employees.

7. A temporary stipend for food and essential items is provided to every American, scaled per household. As no one owes anything to anyone and healthcare is provided, the stipend doesn't have to be that much.

8. Once the virus is contained and the lock down ends, a stimulus check is provided to every American in order to help jump start the economy and get people to spend money.

I don't want anyone's business to suffer; I don't want children to be unable to go to school; I don't want people to die. But at some point - as Americans - we must take responsibility for our nation.

We will continue to suffer if we do the same thing over and over: half-ass lock downs, no unified plan between states, chaotic contact tracing, optional mask policies, etc. I'm not a fan of nationalism, but this is a rare moment where it's important.

In the end, I'd rather we suffer for a short period of time if it means we're not continually stabbed for months on end. At this point, we've suffered more economically (and socially) than had we sucked it up and put everything on a hold for a month or two.

The window to contain this thing before winter is shortening and we need a national plan by yesterday. My idea is probably flawed - I'm just some dude on a message board - but at least it's something. I'd like to see that from our "leaders."

Welcome to communism. Enjoy.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

What a nightmare. Didn’t take them long to get people to jump on board either. It’s like they don’t even realize that it’s Communism that they are supporting. Hell people riot the streets on a regular basis now to have their rights taken away... wtf

(08-29-2020 09:17 PM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  

(08-29-2020 08:04 PM)Prideofalion Wrote:  

(08-29-2020 06:14 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(08-29-2020 08:59 AM)smudge12 Wrote:  Not at all, everyone is important in this.

This is why we need a national, holistic, unified plan.

Look at what I said very early in this thread. Instead of mass bailouts, people losing their jobs, and a one-time $1200 stimulus, I think we need to do a national lock down until contact tracing becomes viable. Let's do it before we experience the (probable) winter surge:

1. All but essential businesses close. Essential would be grocery stores, farms, healthcare facilities, gas stations, etc.

2. All loans are paused and interest can't be accumulated during the pause. No one owes anyone to anything (individuals/businesses owe nothing to lenders, lenders owe nothing to the Fed).

Landlords who owe nothing can apply for gov't assistance due to lost income.

3. Temporary universal healthcare is provided.

4. Federal salary assistance is provided.

Points 3 and 4 allow people who are still working to take time off if they're sick while still being paid. This takes the financial burden off both the employee and employer, and lessens the risk people will go into work sick as they'll know they'll be protected.

5. A temporary national education program is provided through radio, television, and internet.

6. Salaries are paused for non-essential employees. Employers owe nothing to employees.

7. A temporary stipend for food and essential items is provided to every American, scaled per household. As no one owes anything to anyone and healthcare is provided, the stipend doesn't have to be that much.

8. Once the virus is contained and the lock down ends, a stimulus check is provided to every American in order to help jump start the economy and get people to spend money.

I don't want anyone's business to suffer; I don't want children to be unable to go to school; I don't want people to die. But at some point - as Americans - we must take responsibility for our nation.

We will continue to suffer if we do the same thing over and over: half-ass lock downs, no unified plan between states, chaotic contact tracing, optional mask policies, etc. I'm not a fan of nationalism, but this is a rare moment where it's important.

In the end, I'd rather we suffer for a short period of time if it means we're not continually stabbed for months on end. At this point, we've suffered more economically (and socially) than had we sucked it up and put everything on a hold for a month or two.

The window to contain this thing before winter is shortening and we need a national plan by yesterday. My idea is probably flawed - I'm just some dude on a message board - but at least it's something. I'd like to see that from our "leaders."

Welcome to communism. Enjoy.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

What a nightmare. Didn’t take them long to get people to jump on board either. It’s like they don’t even realize that it’s Communism that they are supporting. Hell people riot the streets on a regular basis now to have their rights taken away... wtf

Let’s be fair, and I mean this sincerely. Smudge has offered a detailed plan for dealing with the pandemic. That is more than I, after 153 posts on this thread, has done. Good for him.

But now ask yourself: how realistic is any of it? Seriously.

Close all nonessential businesses? Well I happen to think that my business is pretty darn essential. I am trying to picture in my mind what bureaucratic drone from central planning is qualified to decide if I have to shutdown or not. How ‘bout the guy who fixed my plumbing problem earlier this year. Is he essential? It sure felt essential to me at the time. Are you qualified to make these decisions, smudge? Do you know anyone so qualified?

Suspend all loan and interest payments. Good God. We nearly tanked our economy in 2008 over bad syndicated mortgages that represented only a tiny fraction of the national loan portfolio. Yet you want us to just wave a wand and suspend all mortgage and rent payments. To quote a quasi-vegetable, “C’mon man.” This is 2nd-grade-level thinking.

Nationalize healthcare. Being that I am literally on my 4th insurance policy, With roughly three-fold premium increases, and am now being forced to change my doctor for the 3rd time since the enactment of Obamacare in 2010, I don’t think that’s going to fly. Universal healthcare never had a chance even before President Obama managed to make it politically poisonous.

Smudge, you (like my son) have a good heart. But what you are proposing is worse than unrealistic. It is dangerously cruel. Insisting on policies that are this deluded are more than just bad for our nation. They will irreparably hurt people who truly are in need of gov’t assistance - - by overwhelming legitimate needs with a whole new set of concerns that otherwise would never have needed to be considered.

You’ve nevertheless done this thread an enormous favor. Yours is the only pro-lockdown post that honestly addresses what it would take to defeat the virus. Anything short of that is bound to fail.

So who else is ready to go as far as smudge? Anyone? And if you are not, you probably need to think long and hard about what purpose is being served by continuing the lockdown.

(08-29-2020 09:17 PM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  

(08-29-2020 08:04 PM)Prideofalion Wrote:  

(08-29-2020 06:14 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(08-29-2020 08:59 AM)smudge12 Wrote:  Not at all, everyone is important in this.

This is why we need a national, holistic, unified plan.

Look at what I said very early in this thread. Instead of mass bailouts, people losing their jobs, and a one-time $1200 stimulus, I think we need to do a national lock down until contact tracing becomes viable. Let's do it before we experience the (probable) winter surge:

1. All but essential businesses close. Essential would be grocery stores, farms, healthcare facilities, gas stations, etc.

2. All loans are paused and interest can't be accumulated during the pause. No one owes anyone to anything (individuals/businesses owe nothing to lenders, lenders owe nothing to the Fed).

Landlords who owe nothing can apply for gov't assistance due to lost income.

3. Temporary universal healthcare is provided.

4. Federal salary assistance is provided.

Points 3 and 4 allow people who are still working to take time off if they're sick while still being paid. This takes the financial burden off both the employee and employer, and lessens the risk people will go into work sick as they'll know they'll be protected.

5. A temporary national education program is provided through radio, television, and internet.

6. Salaries are paused for non-essential employees. Employers owe nothing to employees.

7. A temporary stipend for food and essential items is provided to every American, scaled per household. As no one owes anything to anyone and healthcare is provided, the stipend doesn't have to be that much.

8. Once the virus is contained and the lock down ends, a stimulus check is provided to every American in order to help jump start the economy and get people to spend money.

I don't want anyone's business to suffer; I don't want children to be unable to go to school; I don't want people to die. But at some point - as Americans - we must take responsibility for our nation.

We will continue to suffer if we do the same thing over and over: half-ass lock downs, no unified plan between states, chaotic contact tracing, optional mask policies, etc. I'm not a fan of nationalism, but this is a rare moment where it's important.

In the end, I'd rather we suffer for a short period of time if it means we're not continually stabbed for months on end. At this point, we've suffered more economically (and socially) than had we sucked it up and put everything on a hold for a month or two.

The window to contain this thing before winter is shortening and we need a national plan by yesterday. My idea is probably flawed - I'm just some dude on a message board - but at least it's something. I'd like to see that from our "leaders."

Welcome to communism. Enjoy.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

What a nightmare. Didn’t take them long to get people to jump on board either. It’s like they don’t even realize that it’s Communism that they are supporting. Hell people riot the streets on a regular basis now to have their rights taken away... wtf

Let’s be fair, and I mean this sincerely. Smudge has offered a detailed plan for dealing with the pandemic. That is more than I, after 153 posts on this thread, has done. Good for him.

But now ask yourself: how realistic is any of it? Seriously.

Close all nonessential businesses? Well I happen to think that my business is pretty darn essential. I am trying to picture in my mind what bureaucratic drone from central planning is qualified to decide if I have to shutdown or not. How ‘bout the guy who fixed my plumbing problem earlier this year. Is he essential? It sure felt essential to me at the time. Are you qualified to make these decisions, smudge? Do you know anyone so qualified?

Suspend all loan and interest payments. Good God. We nearly tanked our economy in 2008 over bad syndicated mortgages that represented only a tiny fraction of the national loan portfolio. Yet you want us to just wave a wand and suspend all mortgage and rent payments. To quote a quasi-vegetable, “C’mon man.” This is 2nd-grade-level thinking.

Nationalize healthcare. Being that I am literally on my 4th insurance policy, With roughly three-fold premium increases, and am now being forced to change my doctor for the 3rd time since the enactment of Obamacare in 2010, I don’t think that’s going to fly. Universal healthcare never had a chance even before President Obama managed to make it politically poisonous.

Smudge, you (like my son) have a good heart. But what you are proposing is worse than unrealistic. It is dangerously cruel. Insisting on policies that are this deluded are more than just bad for our nation. They will irreparably hurt people who truly are in need of gov’t assistance - - by overwhelming legitimate needs with a whole new set of concerns that otherwise would never have needed to be considered.

You’ve nevertheless done this thread an enormous favor. Yours is the only pro-lockdown post that honestly addresses what it would take to defeat the virus. Anything short of that is bound to fail.

So who else is ready to go as far as smudge? Anyone? And if you are not, you probably need to think long and hard about what purpose is being served by continuing the lockdown.

(08-30-2020 09:10 AM)12thmonarch Wrote:  Nationalized healthcare does and will work if congress and senate can get their **** together and enact policies to cut middle men in the healthcare system. The prices we as a country pay for simple drugs to complex surgeries are criminal else where in the world. For a first world nation we absolutely suck at health care. Many countries have shown it can and will work and none of our politicians have the guts to tell these pharma companies and middle men to go eff them selves. I do know this for sure while cost of healthcare increased twice and sometimes thrice what it was before for some of us and there are reason for it. Govt subsidies are no longer at play here and pre-existing condition coverage for all insured individuals is taking a toll but that coverage is absolutely necessary for some of us with well pre-existing conditions. Again we can look to other first world countries and see how they are doing it and tweak those for us. For anyone who cares to watch this dude breaks it reasonably well.

(08-30-2020 09:50 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  

(08-30-2020 09:10 AM)12thmonarch Wrote:  Nationalized healthcare does and will work if congress and senate can get their **** together and enact policies to cut middle men in the healthcare system. The prices we as a country pay for simple drugs to complex surgeries are criminal else where in the world. For a first world nation we absolutely suck at health care. Many countries have shown it can and will work and none of our politicians have the guts to tell these pharma companies and middle men to go eff them selves. I do know this for sure while cost of healthcare increased twice and sometimes thrice what it was before for some of us and there are reason for it. Govt subsidies are no longer at play here and pre-existing condition coverage for all insured individuals is taking a toll but that coverage is absolutely necessary for some of us with well pre-existing conditions. Again we can look to other first world countries and see how they are doing it and tweak those for us. For anyone who cares to watch this dude breaks it reasonably well.

This is a very well-done clip - - well-worth the 20-plus minutes to watch in its entirety. Thank you for posting it.

How best to confront the undeniable evils of patent lawyers and politicians on the issue of drug pricing, however, is not particularly relevant to the immediate need for us to open up the country. If we don't get our heads out of our coronavirus hysteria pronto, the gouging of American diabetics for the price of insulin will be an afterthought compared to the economic and societal problems that we will have unnecessarily created for ourselves with this lock down. We need to stop it. Now.