(08-19-2020 09:15 AM)DaBigBlue Wrote:  It doesn't look like the experiment of opening schools and colleges, is a great story. The healthy kids seem to be able to spread Covid, easier than thought and are now the primary spreaders of the virus. I know everyone wants to get the kids back into schools, but I don't think we can make a blanket direction for the +50 million students and over 5 million staff. Needs to be tailored to the area and school, tell we get to a solution. What surprised me is the latest survey, that only about 50% of those survey would get the vaccine when it's available in early 2021. Isn't that the way to get out of this?

(08-19-2020 09:17 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  Coach is clearly a nicer person than I am.

The lockdown, in my view, has become an exercise in cruelty. Whether it is sourced from ignorant fear or from raw political cynicism, it is wrong. We are hurting our nation and our citizenry as a whole for a completely futile effort at controlling the spread of an uncontrollable virus.

(08-19-2020 09:25 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:17 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  Coach is clearly a nicer person than I am.

The lockdown, in my view, has become an exercise in cruelty. Whether it is sourced from ignorant fear or from raw political cynicism, it is wrong. We are hurting our nation and our citizenry as a whole for a completely futile effort at controlling the spread of an uncontrollable virus.

But you admit that it's only uncontrollable in America? Kind of like gun violence.

There is a path to mitigating the virus to the point where most people would feel relatively safe and most venues could be open. Of course clusters would pop up here or there and certain communities would have to deal with that when it happens but as a nation we could be in a much better place.

But the path is unacceptable and the results of not following the path are unacceptable. So just pretend like it doesn't exist and lament that your children might have a few less grandparents? I'm a solutions minded person and I don't hear any from you. Just bitching.

(08-19-2020 09:31 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:25 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:17 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  Coach is clearly a nicer person than I am.

The lockdown, in my view, has become an exercise in cruelty. Whether it is sourced from ignorant fear or from raw political cynicism, it is wrong. We are hurting our nation and our citizenry as a whole for a completely futile effort at controlling the spread of an uncontrollable virus.

But you admit that it's only uncontrollable in America? Kind of like gun violence.

There is a path to mitigating the virus to the point where most people would feel relatively safe and most venues could be open. Of course clusters would pop up here or there and certain communities would have to deal with that when it happens but as a nation we could be in a much better place.

But the path is unacceptable and the results of not following the path are unacceptable. So just pretend like it doesn't exist and lament that your children might have a few less grandparents? I'm a solutions minded person and I don't hear any from you. Just bitching.

First bolded statement: I absolutely do. If I had the magical power to (i) instantly eradicate the virus and (ii) remove guns from the hands of everyone worldwide, I would do it. But I don't, and so we deal with these situations as they are presented, not as we wish them to be.

Second bolded statement: That is absolutely untrue. Read anything from either Coach or Monarchblue, two of the smarter contributors on this thread. They have offered any number of suggestions for extending protections to the vulnerable without committing figurative murder to our economy and youth. You may not agree, but it is a falsehood to say that no solutions are being offered.

(08-19-2020 09:24 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:18 AM)Chillie Willie Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:11 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:01 AM)Chillie Willie Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 08:54 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  So, I don't have the freedom to run my business in a way to provide for my family, because my cousin, Tony, can't stay away from McDonald's. That makes a lot of sense.

Think about this: we are restricting everyone's freedom, because one subset of the population that is most at risk of getting this and spreading it won't eat a salad once in a while.

I think you are way oversimplifying what it means to be unhealthy. For many people it is not just a matter of diet and exercise. I would ask you to have more compassion for them.

Yeah, but to hell with schoolchildren, young adults trying to get a start in the world, private-sector employees and business owners.

I would ask you to have more compassion for them.

Are you asking me? OK, let’s play. I would challenge you to find one statement I have made that is insensitive to any of those groups you mention. Or any statement that you would deem to have insufficient compassion.

How 'bout the statement "Unhealthy people have a right to as much freedom as healthy people do."

No one who wants to sequester themselves is being prohibited from doing so. But plenty of healthy kids are being kept from life-critical schooling. Plenty of young adults are having career opportunities taken from them. Plenty of business owners, who depend on an open market, are being driven to bankruptcy.

Whose rights are being infringed on? Do you believe that there is some right to be warm and comfy in life? Because your insistence on that is at the direct expense of someone else.

(08-19-2020 09:31 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:25 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:17 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  Coach is clearly a nicer person than I am.

The lockdown, in my view, has become an exercise in cruelty. Whether it is sourced from ignorant fear or from raw political cynicism, it is wrong. We are hurting our nation and our citizenry as a whole for a completely futile effort at controlling the spread of an uncontrollable virus.

But you admit that it's only uncontrollable in America? Kind of like gun violence.

There is a path to mitigating the virus to the point where most people would feel relatively safe and most venues could be open. Of course clusters would pop up here or there and certain communities would have to deal with that when it happens but as a nation we could be in a much better place.

But the path is unacceptable and the results of not following the path are unacceptable. So just pretend like it doesn't exist and lament that your children might have a few less grandparents? I'm a solutions minded person and I don't hear any from you. Just bitching.

First bolded statement: I absolutely do. If I had the magical power to (i) instantly eradicate the virus and (ii) remove guns from the hands of everyone worldwide, I would do it. But I don't, and so we deal with these situations as they are presented, not as we wish them to be.

Second bolded statement: That is absolutely untrue. Read anything from either Coach or Monarchblue, two of the smarter contributors on this thread. They have offered any number of suggestions for extending protections to the vulnerable without committing figurative murder to our economy and youth. You may not agree, but it is a falsehood to say that no solutions are being offered.

(08-19-2020 09:41 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:31 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:25 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:17 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  Coach is clearly a nicer person than I am.

The lockdown, in my view, has become an exercise in cruelty. Whether it is sourced from ignorant fear or from raw political cynicism, it is wrong. We are hurting our nation and our citizenry as a whole for a completely futile effort at controlling the spread of an uncontrollable virus.

But you admit that it's only uncontrollable in America? Kind of like gun violence.

There is a path to mitigating the virus to the point where most people would feel relatively safe and most venues could be open. Of course clusters would pop up here or there and certain communities would have to deal with that when it happens but as a nation we could be in a much better place.

But the path is unacceptable and the results of not following the path are unacceptable. So just pretend like it doesn't exist and lament that your children might have a few less grandparents? I'm a solutions minded person and I don't hear any from you. Just bitching.

First bolded statement: I absolutely do. If I had the magical power to (i) instantly eradicate the virus and (ii) remove guns from the hands of everyone worldwide, I would do it. But I don't, and so we deal with these situations as they are presented, not as we wish them to be.

Second bolded statement: That is absolutely untrue. Read anything from either Coach or Monarchblue, two of the smarter contributors on this thread. They have offered any number of suggestions for extending protections to the vulnerable without committing figurative murder to our economy and youth. You may not agree, but it is a falsehood to say that no solutions are being offered.

Allowing the virus to spread unmitigated while the vulnerable are hidden away? Sure we should figure out what we need to do to keep the virus out of nursing homes but it goes well beyond that. Many at risk people still need to work, shop, go to the doctor, etc. Community spread at very high levels means more of these people will get sick and die. It also means that more relatively healthy people will get sick and die. It means more death and less places to set at Thanksgiving next year. So no they're not extending protections to the vulnerable and it's the one's that won't comply that are figuratively murdering our economy. Maybe I'm looking for good solutions.

(08-19-2020 09:45 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:41 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:31 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:25 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:17 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  Coach is clearly a nicer person than I am.

The lockdown, in my view, has become an exercise in cruelty. Whether it is sourced from ignorant fear or from raw political cynicism, it is wrong. We are hurting our nation and our citizenry as a whole for a completely futile effort at controlling the spread of an uncontrollable virus.

But you admit that it's only uncontrollable in America? Kind of like gun violence.

There is a path to mitigating the virus to the point where most people would feel relatively safe and most venues could be open. Of course clusters would pop up here or there and certain communities would have to deal with that when it happens but as a nation we could be in a much better place.

But the path is unacceptable and the results of not following the path are unacceptable. So just pretend like it doesn't exist and lament that your children might have a few less grandparents? I'm a solutions minded person and I don't hear any from you. Just bitching.

First bolded statement: I absolutely do. If I had the magical power to (i) instantly eradicate the virus and (ii) remove guns from the hands of everyone worldwide, I would do it. But I don't, and so we deal with these situations as they are presented, not as we wish them to be.

Second bolded statement: That is absolutely untrue. Read anything from either Coach or Monarchblue, two of the smarter contributors on this thread. They have offered any number of suggestions for extending protections to the vulnerable without committing figurative murder to our economy and youth. You may not agree, but it is a falsehood to say that no solutions are being offered.

Allowing the virus to spread unmitigated while the vulnerable are hidden away? Sure we should figure out what we need to do to keep the virus out of nursing homes but it goes well beyond that. Many at risk people still need to work, shop, go to the doctor, etc. Community spread at very high levels means more of these people will get sick and die. It also means that more relatively healthy people will get sick and die. It means more death and less places to set at Thanksgiving next year. So no they're not extending protections to the vulnerable and it's the one's that won't comply that are figuratively murdering our economy. Maybe I'm looking for good solutions.

You can say the same (and in some cases with a higher mortality rate) for the flu, for automobiles, for prescription drugs, for alcohol, and so on.

We don't ban those behaviors. We take reasonable steps, as best we can, to mitigate the harm. It should be no different when it comes to covid.

(08-19-2020 09:43 AM)Chillie Willie Wrote:  So you are saying my statement about equal rights for unhealthy people lacks compassion for healthy people and I believe that there is some right to be warm and comfy in life, whatever that means. So....no?

(08-19-2020 09:44 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:31 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:25 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:17 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  Coach is clearly a nicer person than I am.

The lockdown, in my view, has become an exercise in cruelty. Whether it is sourced from ignorant fear or from raw political cynicism, it is wrong. We are hurting our nation and our citizenry as a whole for a completely futile effort at controlling the spread of an uncontrollable virus.

But you admit that it's only uncontrollable in America? Kind of like gun violence.

There is a path to mitigating the virus to the point where most people would feel relatively safe and most venues could be open. Of course clusters would pop up here or there and certain communities would have to deal with that when it happens but as a nation we could be in a much better place.

But the path is unacceptable and the results of not following the path are unacceptable. So just pretend like it doesn't exist and lament that your children might have a few less grandparents? I'm a solutions minded person and I don't hear any from you. Just bitching.

First bolded statement: I absolutely do. If I had the magical power to (i) instantly eradicate the virus and (ii) remove guns from the hands of everyone worldwide, I would do it. But I don't, and so we deal with these situations as they are presented, not as we wish them to be.

Second bolded statement: That is absolutely untrue. Read anything from either Coach or Monarchblue, two of the smarter contributors on this thread. They have offered any number of suggestions for extending protections to the vulnerable without committing figurative murder to our economy and youth. You may not agree, but it is a falsehood to say that no solutions are being offered.

Some seem to think that people who offer solutions that they don't agree with simply aren't offering any solutions at all.

My retort to the other side of this argument would be that they are offering actions, but not solutions. Solutions require an endgame, and I have yet to hear a single person on the shut it down side of this argument tell us where this ends.

(08-19-2020 09:49 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  You don't like the reasonable steps being taken to mitigate the harm of Covid. So you exasperate the situation with noncompliance.

(08-19-2020 09:44 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:31 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:25 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:17 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  Coach is clearly a nicer person than I am.

The lockdown, in my view, has become an exercise in cruelty. Whether it is sourced from ignorant fear or from raw political cynicism, it is wrong. We are hurting our nation and our citizenry as a whole for a completely futile effort at controlling the spread of an uncontrollable virus.

But you admit that it's only uncontrollable in America? Kind of like gun violence.

There is a path to mitigating the virus to the point where most people would feel relatively safe and most venues could be open. Of course clusters would pop up here or there and certain communities would have to deal with that when it happens but as a nation we could be in a much better place.

But the path is unacceptable and the results of not following the path are unacceptable. So just pretend like it doesn't exist and lament that your children might have a few less grandparents? I'm a solutions minded person and I don't hear any from you. Just bitching.

First bolded statement: I absolutely do. If I had the magical power to (i) instantly eradicate the virus and (ii) remove guns from the hands of everyone worldwide, I would do it. But I don't, and so we deal with these situations as they are presented, not as we wish them to be.

Second bolded statement: That is absolutely untrue. Read anything from either Coach or Monarchblue, two of the smarter contributors on this thread. They have offered any number of suggestions for extending protections to the vulnerable without committing figurative murder to our economy and youth. You may not agree, but it is a falsehood to say that no solutions are being offered.

Some seem to think that people who offer solutions that they don't agree with simply aren't offering any solutions at all.

My retort to the other side of this argument would be that they are offering actions, but not solutions. Solutions require an endgame, and I have yet to hear a single person on the shut it down side of this argument tell us where this ends.

(08-19-2020 09:50 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:44 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:31 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:25 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:17 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  Coach is clearly a nicer person than I am.

The lockdown, in my view, has become an exercise in cruelty. Whether it is sourced from ignorant fear or from raw political cynicism, it is wrong. We are hurting our nation and our citizenry as a whole for a completely futile effort at controlling the spread of an uncontrollable virus.

But you admit that it's only uncontrollable in America? Kind of like gun violence.

There is a path to mitigating the virus to the point where most people would feel relatively safe and most venues could be open. Of course clusters would pop up here or there and certain communities would have to deal with that when it happens but as a nation we could be in a much better place.

But the path is unacceptable and the results of not following the path are unacceptable. So just pretend like it doesn't exist and lament that your children might have a few less grandparents? I'm a solutions minded person and I don't hear any from you. Just bitching.

First bolded statement: I absolutely do. If I had the magical power to (i) instantly eradicate the virus and (ii) remove guns from the hands of everyone worldwide, I would do it. But I don't, and so we deal with these situations as they are presented, not as we wish them to be.

Second bolded statement: That is absolutely untrue. Read anything from either Coach or Monarchblue, two of the smarter contributors on this thread. They have offered any number of suggestions for extending protections to the vulnerable without committing figurative murder to our economy and youth. You may not agree, but it is a falsehood to say that no solutions are being offered.

Some seem to think that people who offer solutions that they don't agree with simply aren't offering any solutions at all.

My retort to the other side of this argument would be that they are offering actions, but not solutions. Solutions require an endgame, and I have yet to hear a single person on the shut it down side of this argument tell us where this ends.

The only solution I'm hearing from the other side is let the virus run it's course. Or am I wrong?

(08-19-2020 09:15 AM)DaBigBlue Wrote:  It doesn't look like the experiment of opening schools and colleges, is a great story. The healthy kids seem to be able to spread Covid, easier than thought and are now the primary spreaders of the virus. I know everyone wants to get the kids back into schools, but I don't think we can make a blanket direction for the +50 million students and over 5 million staff. Needs to be tailored to the area and school, tell we get to a solution. What surprised me is the latest survey, that only about 50% of those survey would get the vaccine when it's available in early 2021. Isn't that the way to get out of this?

(08-19-2020 10:02 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  Let's be real. If there were Flu trackers plastered on every newscast and horror stories about the people who died each day, we would be seeing the exact same reaction from the exact same people that we are seeing now.

Further, if Flu deaths were measured the same way that COVID deaths are measured, the gap in deaths would be significantly less. Doctors do not label every person who has or recently had Flu, and then dies, as a flu death. In fact, doctors are more likely to chalk Flu deaths up to the underlying condition that killed them than they are to chalk it up to FLU. The same cannot be said for COVID, so the fact that this entire discussion has been framed around how COVID deaths compare to Flu deaths is really misleading from the start.

Solution:
Protect LTCs
Tell the American people in a concise way, with clear data points, who is vulnerable and who is not. How much does each underlying condition increase your vulnerability?
Tell those who are not more vulnerable than they are from the flu to go about their lives
Tell those who are slightly more vulnerable than they are from the flu to go about their lives, but with some caution.
Tell those who are significantly more vulnerable than they are from the flu to take significant precaution and get tested regularly
Build a media campaign pleading with those who are positive to self quarantine. Make it feel socially unacceptable to ignore this
Use lockdown measures in cases of extreme outbreaks. They should be extremely targeted, and should last 2 weeks

(08-19-2020 10:19 AM)Chillie Willie Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 10:02 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  Let's be real. If there were Flu trackers plastered on every newscast and horror stories about the people who died each day, we would be seeing the exact same reaction from the exact same people that we are seeing now.

Further, if Flu deaths were measured the same way that COVID deaths are measured, the gap in deaths would be significantly less. Doctors do not label every person who has or recently had Flu, and then dies, as a flu death. In fact, doctors are more likely to chalk Flu deaths up to the underlying condition that killed them than they are to chalk it up to FLU. The same cannot be said for COVID, so the fact that this entire discussion has been framed around how COVID deaths compare to Flu deaths is really misleading from the start.

Solution:
Protect LTCs
Tell the American people in a concise way, with clear data points, who is vulnerable and who is not. How much does each underlying condition increase your vulnerability?
Tell those who are not more vulnerable than they are from the flu to go about their lives
Tell those who are slightly more vulnerable than they are from the flu to go about their lives, but with some caution.
Tell those who are significantly more vulnerable than they are from the flu to take significant precaution and get tested regularly
Build a media campaign pleading with those who are positive to self quarantine. Make it feel socially unacceptable to ignore this
Use lockdown measures in cases of extreme outbreaks. They should be extremely targeted, and should last 2 weeks

COVID is a novelty. It’s right in the name. If the flu was a novelty today we would be seeing the same thing. But it’s not. We have a history and people are aware of the risks and consequences. We don’t know all of the risks and especially all of the consequences of COVID. So a little more caution is warranted. So I would agree with your list of solutions except to apply them with a little more caution. For example add mask wearing, social distancing, and/or hand washing in certain situations to those statements.

(08-19-2020 10:24 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 10:19 AM)Chillie Willie Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 10:02 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  Let's be real. If there were Flu trackers plastered on every newscast and horror stories about the people who died each day, we would be seeing the exact same reaction from the exact same people that we are seeing now.

Further, if Flu deaths were measured the same way that COVID deaths are measured, the gap in deaths would be significantly less. Doctors do not label every person who has or recently had Flu, and then dies, as a flu death. In fact, doctors are more likely to chalk Flu deaths up to the underlying condition that killed them than they are to chalk it up to FLU. The same cannot be said for COVID, so the fact that this entire discussion has been framed around how COVID deaths compare to Flu deaths is really misleading from the start.

Solution:
Protect LTCs
Tell the American people in a concise way, with clear data points, who is vulnerable and who is not. How much does each underlying condition increase your vulnerability?
Tell those who are not more vulnerable than they are from the flu to go about their lives
Tell those who are slightly more vulnerable than they are from the flu to go about their lives, but with some caution.
Tell those who are significantly more vulnerable than they are from the flu to take significant precaution and get tested regularly
Build a media campaign pleading with those who are positive to self quarantine. Make it feel socially unacceptable to ignore this
Use lockdown measures in cases of extreme outbreaks. They should be extremely targeted, and should last 2 weeks

COVID is a novelty. It’s right in the name. If the flu was a novelty today we would be seeing the same thing. But it’s not. We have a history and people are aware of the risks and consequences. We don’t know all of the risks and especially all of the consequences of COVID. So a little more caution is warranted. So I would agree with your list of solutions except to apply them with a little more caution. For example add mask wearing, social distancing, and/or hand washing in certain situations to those statements.

I can agree with that.

100% agree with social distancing and hand washing

I don't really think masks work, but I guess since that is just based on my gut assessment of what I see happening in the world, I would be fine using my media campaign to also shame people for not wearing masks.

(08-19-2020 09:24 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:15 AM)DaBigBlue Wrote:  It doesn't look like the experiment of opening schools and colleges, is a great story. The healthy kids seem to be able to spread Covid, easier than thought and are now the primary spreaders of the virus. I know everyone wants to get the kids back into schools, but I don't think we can make a blanket direction for the +50 million students and over 5 million staff. Needs to be tailored to the area and school, tell we get to a solution. What surprised me is the latest survey, that only about 50% of those survey would get the vaccine when it's available in early 2021. Isn't that the way to get out of this?

Where are you seeing this? I haven't seen any information about how these breakouts are being spread. Colleges like UNC and ND have released all kinds of information about their test numbers and quarantine numbers, but have not really released any information about how many students are actually getting sick. I'm honestly not convinced we need to be quarantining healthy college kids, just because they test positive. I'm especially not convinced we need to quarantine healthy college kids simply because they went to a party with someone who then tested positive.

But, colleges aside, there is still no evidence I've seen that any elementary school kids are spreading this virus. Why not start there with opening the schools?

(08-19-2020 09:24 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:15 AM)DaBigBlue Wrote:  It doesn't look like the experiment of opening schools and colleges, is a great story. The healthy kids seem to be able to spread Covid, easier than thought and are now the primary spreaders of the virus. I know everyone wants to get the kids back into schools, but I don't think we can make a blanket direction for the +50 million students and over 5 million staff. Needs to be tailored to the area and school, tell we get to a solution. What surprised me is the latest survey, that only about 50% of those survey would get the vaccine when it's available in early 2021. Isn't that the way to get out of this?

Where are you seeing this? I haven't seen any information about how these breakouts are being spread. Colleges like UNC and ND have released all kinds of information about their test numbers and quarantine numbers, but have not really released any information about how many students are actually getting sick. I'm honestly not convinced we need to be quarantining healthy college kids, just because they test positive. I'm especially not convinced we need to quarantine healthy college kids simply because they went to a party with someone who then tested positive.

But, colleges aside, there is still no evidence I've seen that any elementary school kids are spreading this virus. Why not start there with opening the schools?