(08-04-2020 02:36 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  The great danger is the virus itself. There is without doubt evidence that you CAN get this in the grocery store or post office or any other number of places. That's why it's called community spread. Unless you think all 4.9 million cases so far in the US can be traced to just knowing someone that had it and getting it from them?

As far as your fear porn. There will be some parent by Christmas that greatly regrets their decision to send their child to school. That's truth. Now ignore that and tell me about the dangers of driving.

(08-04-2020 02:29 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 01:48 PM)84Monarch Wrote:  I have been watching these conversations since the beginning. Do I have an answer? No. The one thing I do know is that no matter what we do we cannot 100% avoid this virus. Eventually we are all going to be exposed if we have not already. My problem is the moving targets regarding success in fighting this thing. I am sorry for the loss of life, but the mortality rate does not warrant some of the measures being used now. 160,000/335,000,000 = 0.000477611. I am not being calloused here, but if we were talking air travel, car accidents, AIDS, cancer of any kind you would take those odds.

At some point you have to live. We cannot hide forever. By the way the flu of 1918 is still with us. Can we fight it better yes, but people moved on and so shall we.

Some of you didn't take statistics at Old Dominion and it shows. That would be the mortality rate if every US Citizen had already been exposed or contracted the virus. 4.9 Million reported cases but let's multiply that by 10 and assume 49 million have contracted or been exposed to the virus. Would you fly if 3 out of every 1000 people died? Would you drive? Would you vote for someone that took us to war knowing 1 million Americans would die? We better hope there's an answer besides we're all going to get it.

(08-04-2020 02:47 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 02:36 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  The great danger is the virus itself. There is without doubt evidence that you CAN get this in the grocery store or post office or any other number of places. That's why it's called community spread. Unless you think all 4.9 million cases so far in the US can be traced to just knowing someone that had it and getting it from them?

As far as your fear porn. There will be some parent by Christmas that greatly regrets their decision to send their child to school. That's truth. Now ignore that and tell me about the dangers of driving.

The research has shown that the great majority of transmissions come from close interactions with an infected person over some period of time (somewhere north of 15 minutes). If you are within 6 feet of me for 15 minutes in the grocery store, we're going to have a problem.

As for regretting sending their kids to school, no one is forcing them to do so. I'm a big fan of parents making choices for their kids. But, I'm not being given a choice to send mine.

(08-04-2020 02:51 PM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  What if there isn't? (And at this point, I really don't see that there will be.)

Chicken Little didn't make up the story about something (was it an acorn?) falling from the sky and hitting her on the head. Her problem was in her overreaction to that event.

We are at some level of risk every day of our lives. Some we can mitigate by reasonable adjustments to our behavior. Others we just need to learn to accept, at least if we are going to go about our lives in any manner other than a self-imposed cocoon.

I've had more than enough of this government overreach when it comes to the WuFlu. If it were just me, you could laugh it off. I am meaningless. But I have a suspicion that it is not just me. It is a significant portion of the American population, some of whom may be nutjobs but some of whom are not.

So what do you intend to do? In the Richard Scarry story, Chicken Little caused a lot of turmoil and aggravation, but ultimately did no harm to anyone but herself. If that is all you were asking for, I'd sit back and say have at it. But you want more. You want the gov't to step in and force others to behave as if the sky is falling. That crosses a line. That is authoritarian behavior.

And unless you believe that a vaccine or effective treatment is right around the corner, it is a recipe for a lot more harm than the virus will do.

(08-04-2020 02:59 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 02:47 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 02:36 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  The great danger is the virus itself. There is without doubt evidence that you CAN get this in the grocery store or post office or any other number of places. That's why it's called community spread. Unless you think all 4.9 million cases so far in the US can be traced to just knowing someone that had it and getting it from them?

As far as your fear porn. There will be some parent by Christmas that greatly regrets their decision to send their child to school. That's truth. Now ignore that and tell me about the dangers of driving.

The research has shown that the great majority of transmissions come from close interactions with an infected person over some period of time (somewhere north of 15 minutes). If you are within 6 feet of me for 15 minutes in the grocery store, we're going to have a problem.

As for regretting sending their kids to school, no one is forcing them to do so. I'm a big fan of parents making choices for their kids. But, I'm not being given a choice to send mine.

Are you sure that's what the research says? There's a difference between saying that you are most likely to catch it through close interactions and most transmission occurred that way. The fact is the more community spread we have the higher the number of cases that are no longer able to be traced back to a specific interaction. What about this? Does this look like a problem?

(08-04-2020 03:00 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 02:51 PM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  What if there isn't? (And at this point, I really don't see that there will be.)

Chicken Little didn't make up the story about something (was it an acorn?) falling from the sky and hitting her on the head. Her problem was in her overreaction to that event.

We are at some level of risk every day of our lives. Some we can mitigate by reasonable adjustments to our behavior. Others we just need to learn to accept, at least if we are going to go about our lives in any manner other than a self-imposed cocoon.

I've had more than enough of this government overreach when it comes to the WuFlu. If it were just me, you could laugh it off. I am meaningless. But I have a suspicion that it is not just me. It is a significant portion of the American population, some of whom may be nutjobs but some of whom are not.

So what do you intend to do? In the Richard Scarry story, Chicken Little caused a lot of turmoil and aggravation, but ultimately did no harm to anyone but herself. If that is all you were asking for, I'd sit back and say have at it. But you want more. You want the gov't to step in and force others to behave as if the sky is falling. That crosses a line. That is authoritarian behavior.

And unless you believe that a vaccine or effective treatment is right around the corner, it is a recipe for a lot more harm than the virus will do.

You're not the only one. I'm saddened by the desire of so many to force behaviors upon others through government mandate (not even voted on my our representatives).

Worse, though, is no one is willing to tell us where it ends. 15 days to flatten the curve has become 150. And, yet, we don't seem to be any closer to resuming life than we were on March 13th. What's the end game? At what point, can we resume normal life?

Let's protect the vulnerable populations. Let's let everyone else decide how they want to handle their individual risk assessment. We can't go on like this forever. We can't even go on like this until there is a vaccine.

(08-04-2020 03:14 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 02:59 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 02:47 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 02:36 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  The great danger is the virus itself. There is without doubt evidence that you CAN get this in the grocery store or post office or any other number of places. That's why it's called community spread. Unless you think all 4.9 million cases so far in the US can be traced to just knowing someone that had it and getting it from them?

As far as your fear porn. There will be some parent by Christmas that greatly regrets their decision to send their child to school. That's truth. Now ignore that and tell me about the dangers of driving.

The research has shown that the great majority of transmissions come from close interactions with an infected person over some period of time (somewhere north of 15 minutes). If you are within 6 feet of me for 15 minutes in the grocery store, we're going to have a problem.

As for regretting sending their kids to school, no one is forcing them to do so. I'm a big fan of parents making choices for their kids. But, I'm not being given a choice to send mine.

WHat kinds
Are you sure that's what the research says? There's a difference between saying that you are most likely to catch it through close interactions and most transmission occurred that way. The fact is the more community spread we have the higher the number of cases that are no longer able to be traced back to a specific interaction. What about this? Does this look like a problem?

I get that that there is a difference between "most likely" and "most transmissions," and maybe that is a better way of saying it without actual numbers to back it up, but that's a deflection.

Here is where I stand: if you are going to have a government mandate regarding whether or not I must wear a mask when I'm in public (FWIW, I have NO PROBLEM if a private company wants to mandate it, without government force), the burden is on you to prove that going to Wegman's without a mask is a "great danger" to society. If you can't prove that I'm literally putting most people in great danger, I don't think the government has the right to restrict my behaviors.

As for the picture, I don't see it as a problem, but I'm sure you'll be glad to lecture me as to why it is.

(08-04-2020 03:17 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  WHat kind of numbers are you looking for? It seems pretty clear that it does not take 15 minute of close exposure to get this virus; how does that make any sense at all?

Quote:Another factor is prolonged exposure. That's generally defined as 15 minutes or more of unprotected contact with someone less than 6 feet away, said John Brooks, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's chief medical officer for the Covid-19 response.

(08-04-2020 03:00 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 02:51 PM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  What if there isn't? (And at this point, I really don't see that there will be.)

Chicken Little didn't make up the story about something (was it an acorn?) falling from the sky and hitting her on the head. Her problem was in her overreaction to that event.

We are at some level of risk every day of our lives. Some we can mitigate by reasonable adjustments to our behavior. Others we just need to learn to accept, at least if we are going to go about our lives in any manner other than a self-imposed cocoon.

I've had more than enough of this government overreach when it comes to the WuFlu. If it were just me, you could laugh it off. I am meaningless. But I have a suspicion that it is not just me. It is a significant portion of the American population, some of whom may be nutjobs but some of whom are not.

So what do you intend to do? In the Richard Scarry story, Chicken Little caused a lot of turmoil and aggravation, but ultimately did no harm to anyone but herself. If that is all you were asking for, I'd sit back and say have at it. But you want more. You want the gov't to step in and force others to behave as if the sky is falling. That crosses a line. That is authoritarian behavior.

And unless you believe that a vaccine or effective treatment is right around the corner, it is a recipe for a lot more harm than the virus will do.

You're not the only one. I'm saddened by the desire of so many to force behaviors upon others through government mandate (not even voted on my our representatives).

Worse, though, is no one is willing to tell us where it ends. 15 days to flatten the curve has become 150. And, yet, we don't seem to be any closer to resuming life than we were on March 13th. What's the end game? At what point, can we resume normal life?

Let's protect the vulnerable populations. Let's let everyone else decide how they want to handle their individual risk assessment. We can't go on like this forever. We can't even go on like this until there is a vaccine.

(08-04-2020 03:33 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  To be fair, we did get this from everyone's favorite global leader, Bill Gates. (Side note, I don't like the way the writer implies forced government vaccination is what Gates is after. He might be, but that isn't exactly what he says in the clip. I'm more interested in the comment that we won't return to normal until most are vaccinated).

(08-04-2020 03:14 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 02:59 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 02:47 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 02:36 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  The great danger is the virus itself. There is without doubt evidence that you CAN get this in the grocery store or post office or any other number of places. That's why it's called community spread. Unless you think all 4.9 million cases so far in the US can be traced to just knowing someone that had it and getting it from them?

As far as your fear porn. There will be some parent by Christmas that greatly regrets their decision to send their child to school. That's truth. Now ignore that and tell me about the dangers of driving.

The research has shown that the great majority of transmissions come from close interactions with an infected person over some period of time (somewhere north of 15 minutes). If you are within 6 feet of me for 15 minutes in the grocery store, we're going to have a problem.

As for regretting sending their kids to school, no one is forcing them to do so. I'm a big fan of parents making choices for their kids. But, I'm not being given a choice to send mine.

Are you sure that's what the research says? There's a difference between saying that you are most likely to catch it through close interactions and most transmission occurred that way. The fact is the more community spread we have the higher the number of cases that are no longer able to be traced back to a specific interaction. What about this? Does this look like a problem?

I get that that there is a difference between "most likely" and "most transmissions," and maybe that is a better way of saying it without actual numbers to back it up, but that's a deflection.

Here is where I stand: if you are going to have a government mandate regarding whether or not I must wear a mask when I'm in public (FWIW, I have NO PROBLEM if a private company wants to mandate it, without government force), the burden is on you to prove that going to Wegman's without a mask is a "great danger" to society. If you can't prove that I'm literally putting most people in great danger, I don't think the government has the right to restrict my behaviors.

As for the picture, I don't see it as a problem, but I'm sure you'll be glad to lecture me as to why it is.

(08-04-2020 03:47 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  He's making exactly the point as I did in my last post. It's not the government. It's the Virus. The economy will not recovery when people don't feel safe.

(08-04-2020 03:54 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  It's proven that where masks have been mandated transmissions have declined. Is that not enough?

(08-04-2020 03:54 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  I'm sure I've lectured enough for today. But those kids are plenty capable of catching and transmitting the disease and that's a petrie dish waiting to happen

(08-04-2020 02:29 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 01:48 PM)84Monarch Wrote:  I have been watching these conversations since the beginning. Do I have an answer? No. The one thing I do know is that no matter what we do we cannot 100% avoid this virus. Eventually we are all going to be exposed if we have not already. My problem is the moving targets regarding success in fighting this thing. I am sorry for the loss of life, but the mortality rate does not warrant some of the measures being used now. 160,000/335,000,000 = 0.000477611. I am not being calloused here, but if we were talking air travel, car accidents, AIDS, cancer of any kind you would take those odds.

At some point you have to live. We cannot hide forever. By the way the flu of 1918 is still with us. Can we fight it better yes, but people moved on and so shall we.

Some of you didn't take statistics at Old Dominion and it shows. That would be the mortality rate if every US Citizen had already been exposed or contracted the virus. 4.9 Million reported cases but let's multiply that by 10 and assume 49 million have contracted or been exposed to the virus. Would you fly if 3 out of every 1000 people died? Would you drive? Would you vote for someone that took us to war knowing 1 million Americans would die? We better hope there's an answer besides we're all going to get it.

(08-04-2020 02:59 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 02:47 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

(08-04-2020 02:36 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  The great danger is the virus itself. There is without doubt evidence that you CAN get this in the grocery store or post office or any other number of places. That's why it's called community spread. Unless you think all 4.9 million cases so far in the US can be traced to just knowing someone that had it and getting it from them?

As far as your fear porn. There will be some parent by Christmas that greatly regrets their decision to send their child to school. That's truth. Now ignore that and tell me about the dangers of driving.

The research has shown that the great majority of transmissions come from close interactions with an infected person over some period of time (somewhere north of 15 minutes). If you are within 6 feet of me for 15 minutes in the grocery store, we're going to have a problem.

As for regretting sending their kids to school, no one is forcing them to do so. I'm a big fan of parents making choices for their kids. But, I'm not being given a choice to send mine.

Are you sure that's what the research says? There's a difference between saying that you are most likely to catch it through close interactions and most transmission occurred that way. The fact is the more community spread we have the higher the number of cases that are no longer able to be traced back to a specific interaction. What about this? Does this look like a problem?

(08-04-2020 06:18 PM)VB Monarch Wrote:  This virus was coming. Experts knew this for years and years. Now that it has arrived (it probably won't be the last) people need to adjust to a new reality. Things are never going back to the way they were before. I think some get agitated by the governmenmt mandating masks because they believe if we wait long enough everything will go back to normal. They are reluctant to embrace the change. It is called denial and it is the first stage of grief. The sooner people realize their way of life has changed the better off they'll be.