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What does Dayton, or anyone else, have to do to get into the BE? - Printable Version

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What does Dayton, or anyone else, have to do to get into the BE? - Fighting Muskie - 02-11-2020 07:26 AM

It took 2 national title appearances for Butler to get noticed by the A-10 and then the BE.

What does Dayton have to do to prove that they are worthy?


RE: What does Dayton, or anyone else, have to do to get into the BE? - Kit-Cat - 02-11-2020 07:55 AM

There really isn't anything that can be done. The BE has 11 teams in it.

The question is more what can anyone do to impress the AAC like Wichita State was able to do and land an invite? Make a final four?


RE: What does Dayton, or anyone else, have to do to get into the BE? - esayem - 02-11-2020 08:18 AM

Dayton would probably have to move their campus to another state. Former rivals Xavier and Cincinnati don’t even schedule them anymore. Unfortunately, we all know this happens in realignment.


RE: What does Dayton, or anyone else, have to do to get into the BE? - BruceMcF - 02-11-2020 09:36 AM

(02-11-2020 08:18 AM)esayem Wrote:  Dayton would probably have to move their campus to another state. Former rivals Xavier and Cincinnati don’t even schedule them anymore. Unfortunately, we all know this happens in realignment.

Oh, they wouldn't have to leave the state. Moving to Cleveland would be sufficient. Just so long as they were not in Southwest Ohio.

But that's just a different shade of not going to happen, so its a distinction without much difference.

For UConn, a national championship and long history of playing the Big East schools was sufficient. But that was to get to 11 ... there's no particular reason a basketball conference cannot stay at 11 indefinitely, so a 12th might have to match that then top it.


RE: What does Dayton, or anyone else, have to do to get into the BE? - CliftonAve - 02-11-2020 09:45 AM

(02-11-2020 09:36 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 08:18 AM)esayem Wrote:  Dayton would probably have to move their campus to another state. Former rivals Xavier and Cincinnati don’t even schedule them anymore. Unfortunately, we all know this happens in realignment.

Oh, they wouldn't have to leave the state. Moving to Cleveland would be sufficient. Just so long as they were not in Southwest Ohio.

But that's just a different shade of not going to happen, so its a distinction without much difference.

For UConn, a national championship and long history of playing the Big East schools was sufficient. But that was to get to 11 ... there's no particular reason a basketball conference cannot stay at 11 indefinitely, so a 12th might have to match that then top it.

If UD were in Cleveland they would not have the ravenous fan base they currently have. Dayton has a great fan base because they don't have pro sports in town. If UD were in Cleveland they would have been drowned out by the Browns, Indians and Cavs. That's not even getting into the whole Ohio State obsession up there (which may exist in southwest Ohio for football to an extent, but is non-existent in hoops).


RE: What does Dayton, or anyone else, have to do to get into the BE? - GoldenWarrior11 - 02-11-2020 09:55 AM

Patience.

Dayton (much like SLU) just needs to be patient and continue to invest in itself and attempt to create a sustainable competitive men's basketball program that competes for tournament births annually. Both institutions have strongly invested in itself in the past several years - undergoing arena renovations, hiring proven/winning coaches and improved recruiting. Stay the course and history will work itself out. Xavier's success is not predicated on Dayton's, and - despite their proximity - both programs have incredibly strong fan support and modern arenas.

The fact remains is that no one knows how the 20-game power conference schedule will end up affecting leagues and bids/seeds. It will need a cycle (~5 years) to have an in-depth and quantitative look to see how it affects everyone. I've always thought a 12-team/18-game basketball league structure was optimal, but who knows how the landscape will end up being changed. The Big East, for years, had 14+ teams. From 2005-2012, the league had 16 teams. Long-term, nothing would be more exciting that to have another 14/16 team basketball league that had shared institutional identity and, top-to-bottom, strong basketball programs annually. One of the long(er)-term goals of the Big East should be to expand to get back to the large format of the BET which hosted 15 games, and eight different sessions.

Inevitably, Dayton (and/or SLU, or whomever) will need to show a clear separation from themselves within the A10 - and not just a one-year showing, but sustained break IMO.


RE: What does Dayton, or anyone else, have to do to get into the BE? - bullet - 02-11-2020 09:55 AM

(02-11-2020 07:26 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  It took 2 national title appearances for Butler to get noticed by the A-10 and then the BE.

What does Dayton have to do to prove that they are worthy?

Think you just said it. Be like Butler.


RE: What does Dayton, or anyone else, have to do to get into the BE? - GoldenWarrior11 - 02-11-2020 10:10 AM

(02-11-2020 07:55 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  There really isn't anything that can be done. The BE has 11 teams in it.

The question is more what can anyone do to impress the AAC like Wichita State was able to do and land an invite? Make a final four?

IMO, the AAC expanded not because Wichita State was coming off an incredible run in the MVC (which it clearly was), but rather due to how it men's basketball was clearly and noticeably underachieving. Wichita State's Final Four run occurred in 2013 (the first year of the AAC). The year the AAC decided to finally invite Wichita State was the year they only got two bids (#6 SMU and #6 Cincinnati); Wichita State was a #10 - despite going 30-4. The year prior, the AAC had 4 bids (but only one tournament win). Thus, there was clearly a mutual benefit to both parties for membership.

With UConn leaving this summer, and the possibility of the AAC getting three or fewer bids again (each with no-so-good seeds), that could spark another non-football expansion invitation in order to help prop-up men's basketball once again. Dayton would be a natural target, but due to institutional fit, geography and sustained success, VCU would clearly be the favorite.

I'm honestly not sure, but does anyone know what the annual payouts of the A10 are against what Wichita State will be making in the AAC?


RE: What does Dayton, or anyone else, have to do to get into the BE? - TexanMark - 02-11-2020 10:29 AM

Dayton needs to convince Butler and Xavier to share. It is too bad but Dayton is outside looking in until something happens among the P5. A Georgetown, Nova, or UConn would need to be pulled into the ACC. A highly unlikely scenario.

Eleven teams allows for a double round robin... twelve does not. I don't see Dayton bringing in enough TV dollars to justify going to twelve.


RE: What does Dayton, or anyone else, have to do to get into the BE? - esayem - 02-11-2020 10:34 AM

(02-11-2020 09:55 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 07:26 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  It took 2 national title appearances for Butler to get noticed by the A-10 and then the BE.

What does Dayton have to do to prove that they are worthy?

Think you just said it. Be like Butler.

Butler never would have sniffed the Big East if Notre Dame stayed. ND still doesn’t play them.


RE: What does Dayton, or anyone else, have to do to get into the BE? - CliftonAve - 02-11-2020 10:42 AM

(02-11-2020 10:34 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 09:55 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 07:26 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  It took 2 national title appearances for Butler to get noticed by the A-10 and then the BE.

What does Dayton have to do to prove that they are worthy?

Think you just said it. Be like Butler.

Butler never would have sniffed the Big East if Notre Dame stayed. ND still doesn’t play them.

If we are being honest Butler, Xavier and Creighton all got very lucky the Big East split like it did. If it had not, they likely would still be playing in the A10/MVC.


RE: What does Dayton, or anyone else, have to do to get into the BE? - Go College Sports - 02-11-2020 11:00 AM

Probably go back in time to 2005 and figure out how to get the spot Depaul took.


RE: What does Dayton, or anyone else, have to do to get into the BE? - Captain Bearcat - 02-11-2020 11:03 AM

I've said for years that the AAC should invite Dayton. It was a mistake to only add Wichita; we should have also added Dayton.


RE: What does Dayton, or anyone else, have to do to get into the BE? - CliftonAve - 02-11-2020 11:10 AM

(02-11-2020 11:00 AM)Go College Sports Wrote:  Probably go back in time to 2005 and figure out how to get the spot Depaul took.

Big East was adding Louisville and Cincinnati--- the basketball schools wanted a couple non-football playing members to even out the voting in the conference so they added Marquette and Depaul.


RE: What does Dayton, or anyone else, have to do to get into the BE? - CitrusUCF - 02-11-2020 11:21 AM

(02-11-2020 10:10 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 07:55 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  There really isn't anything that can be done. The BE has 11 teams in it.

The question is more what can anyone do to impress the AAC like Wichita State was able to do and land an invite? Make a final four?

IMO, the AAC expanded not because Wichita State was coming off an incredible run in the MVC (which it clearly was), but rather due to how it men's basketball was clearly and noticeably underachieving. Wichita State's Final Four run occurred in 2013 (the first year of the AAC). The year the AAC decided to finally invite Wichita State was the year they only got two bids (#6 SMU and #6 Cincinnati); Wichita State was a #10 - despite going 30-4. The year prior, the AAC had 4 bids (but only one tournament win). Thus, there was clearly a mutual benefit to both parties for membership.

With UConn leaving this summer, and the possibility of the AAC getting three or fewer bids again (each with no-so-good seeds), that could spark another non-football expansion invitation in order to help prop-up men's basketball once again. Dayton would be a natural target, but due to institutional fit, geography and sustained success, VCU would clearly be the favorite.

I'm honestly not sure, but does anyone know what the annual payouts of the A10 are against what Wichita State will be making in the AAC?

I don't see a problem with 14 in basketball. With Navy FB-only, we could add 2-3 schools depending on what we do with the UConn slot...VCU and Dayton would be the obvious choices and would be a big boost to the AAC. If we add someone FB-only to replace UConn, we could also target someone like St Louis, Richmond, or Rhode Island.


RE: What does Dayton, or anyone else, have to do to get into the BE? - GoldenWarrior11 - 02-11-2020 11:38 AM

(02-11-2020 11:10 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 11:00 AM)Go College Sports Wrote:  Probably go back in time to 2005 and figure out how to get the spot Depaul took.

Big East was adding Louisville and Cincinnati--- the basketball schools wanted a couple non-football playing members to even out the voting in the conference so they added Marquette and Depaul.

When the Great Midwest Conference formed in 1991, it was thanks to DePaul that Marquette was included. We had not made the NCAAs since 1983, with a few NIT appearances sprinkled in. It appeared that Marquette had lost the luster that was generated from Al McGuire, and basketball independents were becoming a dying breed (many were joining leagues). We had just hired Kevin O'Neill (who was recruiting really well, and eventually led us back to the Sweet 16 in 1994). DePaul had been led by Joey Meyer (and had made six of seven NCAA Tournaments before the GMC formed). DePaul made sure that Marquette was included, despite our struggles from the preceding seasons.

When it came around to 2005, the roles were revered. We had just came off the Wade/Diener/Crean Final Four, we were building a brand new basketball practice facility on campus, we just recruited three top-level recruits (D. James, W. Matthews and J. McNeal). DePaul, conversely, was coming off a down period with Pat Kennedy (one NCAA in five years) and Dave Leitao was attempting to rebuild the program (he too won an NCAA tournament game in '04).

In summary, DePaul got Marquette into the GMC and Marquette got DePaul into the Big East. In the musical chairs of realignment, it is pivotal to have institutional connections and built-in relationships with other peers to ensure you never get left out and/or left behind with programs you don't fit with.


RE: What does Dayton, or anyone else, have to do to get into the BE? - Chappy - 02-11-2020 11:52 AM

(02-11-2020 11:03 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  I've said for years that the AAC should invite Dayton. It was a mistake to only add Wichita; we should have also added Dayton.

As a Catholic school they are a better institutional fit in the Big East, but I'd take them in the American in a heartbeat.


RE: What does Dayton, or anyone else, have to do to get into the BE? - esayem - 02-11-2020 12:02 PM

(02-11-2020 11:38 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 11:10 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 11:00 AM)Go College Sports Wrote:  Probably go back in time to 2005 and figure out how to get the spot Depaul took.

Big East was adding Louisville and Cincinnati--- the basketball schools wanted a couple non-football playing members to even out the voting in the conference so they added Marquette and Depaul.

When the Great Midwest Conference formed in 1991, it was thanks to DePaul that Marquette was included. We had not made the NCAAs since 1983, with a few NIT appearances sprinkled in. It appeared that Marquette had lost the luster that was generated from Al McGuire, and basketball independents were becoming a dying breed (many were joining leagues). We had just hired Kevin O'Neill (who was recruiting really well, and eventually led us back to the Sweet 16 in 1994). DePaul had been led by Joey Meyer (and had made six of seven NCAA Tournaments before the GMC formed). DePaul made sure that Marquette was included, despite our struggles from the preceding seasons.

When it came around to 2005, the roles were revered. We had just came off the Wade/Diener/Crean Final Four, we were building a brand new basketball practice facility on campus, we just recruited three top-level recruits (D. James, W. Matthews and J. McNeal). DePaul, conversely, was coming off a down period with Pat Kennedy (one NCAA in five years) and Dave Leitao was attempting to rebuild the program (he too won an NCAA tournament game in '04).

In summary, DePaul got Marquette into the GMC and Marquette got DePaul into the Big East. In the musical chairs of realignment, it is pivotal to have institutional connections and built-in relationships with other peers to ensure you never get left out and/or left behind with programs you don't fit with.

I’m pretty sure DePaul was the last to commit to the Great Midwest.


RE: What does Dayton, or anyone else, have to do to get into the BE? - Fighting Muskie - 02-11-2020 12:07 PM

The Catholic/Private school league that should have been:

Detroit Mercy
Dayton
Xavier
Butler
Notre Dame
DePaul
Marquette
St Louis
Creighton
Drake


RE: What does Dayton, or anyone else, have to do to get into the BE? - GoldenWarrior11 - 02-11-2020 12:15 PM

(02-11-2020 12:02 PM)esayem Wrote:  I’m pretty sure DePaul was the last to commit to the Great Midwest.

Dayton joined in 1993, everyone else in 1991. DePaul was a founding member.