(02-08-2020 09:45 PM)banker Wrote:  Well, if you could eliminate human nature, socialism would be great. Everybody wakes up at 6:00, works all day at a craft, and everybody just gets everything they need in exchange for their labor and production. The only excuse not to produce something of value is complete physical or mental incapacity. Everyone is happy having no more, or no less, than anyone else because everyone is working hard, no one any less than the others.

And that's about as many impossible things as I can cram in to one paragraph.

The real issues are they you need someone to oversee and administer the system, and those folks will always corrupt it for their own gain. On the flip side, you will have those that refuse to produce and yet are still given an equal share of the fruits of labor. Seeing this, other will become disenchanted and overall production will begin to fall leading to a declining quality of life for all, except those overseeing things who now stick out even more with what is a comparative opulent life. This makes the masses angry, there is eventually an uprising, which leads to the kind overseers releasing the military on the populace. Viola, a dictatorship emerges.

(02-08-2020 09:23 PM)Mav Wrote:  TPUSA? No thanks. Not even a socialist but I'd rather not sit through anything from those clowns.

(02-08-2020 09:51 PM)Kronke Wrote:  

(02-08-2020 09:23 PM)Mav Wrote:  TPUSA? No thanks. Not even a socialist but I'd rather not sit through anything from those clowns.

Yeah, they are the worst.

They try to sell open borders libertarianism and drag queens to unsuspecting college kids as “conservative” and America first. God bless the kids that landed some serious damage to them on their last college tour, when they showed up and asked questions that charlie kirk had no answers for.

(02-08-2020 09:45 PM)banker Wrote:  Well, if you could eliminate human nature, socialism would be great. Everybody wakes up at 6:00, works all day at a craft, and everybody just gets everything they need in exchange for their labor and production. The only excuse not to produce something of value is complete physical or mental incapacity. Everyone is happy having no more, or no less, than anyone else because everyone is working hard, no one any less than the others.

And that's about as many impossible things as I can cram in to one paragraph.

The real issues are they you need someone to oversee and administer the system, and those folks will always corrupt it for their own gain. On the flip side, you will have those that refuse to produce and yet are still given an equal share of the fruits of labor. Seeing this, other will become disenchanted and overall production will begin to fall leading to a declining quality of life for all, except those overseeing things who now stick out even more with what is a comparative opulent life. This makes the masses angry, there is eventually an uprising, which leads to the kind overseers releasing the military on the populace. Viola, a dictatorship emerges.

(02-08-2020 08:30 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  Here's a sampling of how wonderful socialism is. If that's what YOU want then go enjoy that great experiment somewhere that they have it but please don't try to hoodwink us who have seen many other examples of socialism/communism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz6VJK3mS08

(02-08-2020 11:41 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  The problem with creating these socialist utopias is someone has to pay for the programs. A quick Google search and I found this.

One of the things you will note is the 56% top tax bracket. Bernie has actually proposed a top bracket of nearly 80%.

Now let me ask a simple question...

If I’m a business owner why would I take all the risk with my money to give 80 cents of every dollar to the government. That’s the problem with socialism, Democratic or otherwise,; no incentive to be productive or innovative.

If I’m the business owner I’m taking my company out of the country or I will just shut it down and keep my money in my pocket.

Liberals are bad enough. They act like you can saddle businesses with high taxes and the golden goose with just keep laying those golden eggs. Socialists kill the golden goose, and expect it to keep laying eggs.

You can’t socialize anything and improve it. Medicine, for example, as the linked article points out, is substandard in the Nordic Countries. Bernie doesn’t tell anyone that as he tries to sell his plan. My Canadian friends come across the border for healthcare in the States.

Finally one of the biggest problems I have with socialism is the free education. I paid for my education. I paid for my three children. All with advanced degrees. If they eliminate all student loans, I want a damn refund. Why should I or anyone else that worked two jobs to pay for school not get a refund? Just because millennials are too damn lazy to work and pay off their loans, how come I have to pay higher taxes.

(02-10-2020 10:49 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(02-08-2020 11:41 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  The problem with creating these socialist utopias is someone has to pay for the programs. A quick Google search and I found this.

One of the things you will note is the 56% top tax bracket. Bernie has actually proposed a top bracket of nearly 80%.

Now let me ask a simple question...

If I’m a business owner why would I take all the risk with my money to give 80 cents of every dollar to the government. That’s the problem with socialism, Democratic or otherwise,; no incentive to be productive or innovative.

If I’m the business owner I’m taking my company out of the country or I will just shut it down and keep my money in my pocket.

Liberals are bad enough. They act like you can saddle businesses with high taxes and the golden goose with just keep laying those golden eggs. Socialists kill the golden goose, and expect it to keep laying eggs.

You can’t socialize anything and improve it. Medicine, for example, as the linked article points out, is substandard in the Nordic Countries. Bernie doesn’t tell anyone that as he tries to sell his plan. My Canadian friends come across the border for healthcare in the States.

Finally one of the biggest problems I have with socialism is the free education. I paid for my education. I paid for my three children. All with advanced degrees. If they eliminate all student loans, I want a damn refund. Why should I or anyone else that worked two jobs to pay for school not get a refund? Just because millennials are too damn lazy to work and pay off their loans, how come I have to pay higher taxes.

Yep, for some illogical reason socialist supporters actually think that if they increase taxes even more on the rich that same capital will still be there to be taxed at that higher rate. I don't understand why they can't think that part through.

(02-08-2020 09:47 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(02-08-2020 09:45 PM)banker Wrote:  Well, if you could eliminate human nature, socialism would be great. Everybody wakes up at 6:00, works all day at a craft, and everybody just gets everything they need in exchange for their labor and production. The only excuse not to produce something of value is complete physical or mental incapacity. Everyone is happy having no more, or no less, than anyone else because everyone is working hard, no one any less than the others.

And that's about as many impossible things as I can cram in to one paragraph.

The real issues are they you need someone to oversee and administer the system, and those folks will always corrupt it for their own gain. On the flip side, you will have those that refuse to produce and yet are still given an equal share of the fruits of labor. Seeing this, other will become disenchanted and overall production will begin to fall leading to a declining quality of life for all, except those overseeing things who now stick out even more with what is a comparative opulent life. This makes the masses angry, there is eventually an uprising, which leads to the kind overseers releasing the military on the populace. Viola, a dictatorship emerges.

star trek: the next generation will never ever never ever never ever happen....

#fantasyForFaries

(02-08-2020 10:53 PM)ShrackUAB Wrote:  Is anyone on this board actually a socialist though? Maybe one or two people? Is there anyone advocating for us to be the next Cuba?

I don't believe that wanting to implement policies similar to countries such as Japan, Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, the United Kingdom, etc makes you a Socialist. It's just Capitalism with extra safety nets for your average citizen. Ensuring the health of all of your citizens is simply a net gain for productivity and morale.

Canada, Germany, the UK, Japan, etc are all CAPITALIST countries with some SOCIAL policies. Sweden, Norway, Denmark etc use the NORDIC MODEL of CAPITALISM.

-The Beveridge model of healthcare doesn't make you a socialist country.
-The Bismarck model of healthcare doesn't make you a socialist country.
-The National Health Insurance model of healthcare doesn't make you a socialist country.

Our current healthcare model is trash. We pay too much money because so many different entities have their hands in the cookie jar... and to top it off we willingly defend overpaying for everything simply because in most people's minds any other model is "socialism". For some really weird reason people just love defending Anthem (BCBS) and Aetna Health insurance companies. They also love that Pharmaceutical companies are charging us 50% more than they did just 10 years ago, well past inflation. To top it off, all of these pharmaceutical companies received subsidies paid for with taxpayer money. Nearly EVERY drug released in the past 10 years received government subsidies to create it.

Here's some real socialism for you:

-Bank bailouts, no prison time for causing the 2008 financial crisis
-Auto bailouts
-ISP companies accepting millions and millions in government subsidies for infrastructure and just pocketing it...then having the audacity to ask for more taxpayer money.
-Equifax boning every taxpaying American in the country and nothing happens, no prison time

If we're supposed to be a capitalistic utopia then why are all of these large companies getting socialism/subsidies??? Why are these companies living off the taxpayer teet if we're supposed to be a purely capitalist society? In a truly capitalist society these entities would have been allowed to fail, and someone else would have risen up over time to take their place.

We don't live in a purely Capitalist society as it is and for good reason. It would be a total winner-takes-all hell, as much as Socialist/Communist states are hellish societies to live in. This whole going to the extreme nonsense any time anyone discusses any new policies is so old and worn out. Social policy that a vast majority of capitalistic countries use for the good of their citizens is not socialism. And I realize this is a video specifically about Cuba, but most of the discourse on this board is about the current Democratic field versus Trump coming up.

(02-10-2020 09:19 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Many of us including Bernie Sanders are calling for us to modal ourselves on healthcare like Israel, Canada, the UK, Germany, Japan, the Nordic countries, and others like that. Most of the countries used the single payer government run health care as an investment to keep people healthy from birth to death. It is an investment for babies to be grown up as healthy to work at jobs which brings in more money as an investment for their kids, and grandkids and great grandkids. I think we need that.

Bernie Sanders voted against bailing out the banks in 2008 and the auto bail outs. He voted against giving free money to oil companies to media companies as he said bailing them out is like giving them money that many paid no to a little taxes as possible. It was giving our money, the little people to the 1%.

(02-10-2020 08:54 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 10:49 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(02-08-2020 11:41 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  The problem with creating these socialist utopias is someone has to pay for the programs. A quick Google search and I found this.

One of the things you will note is the 56% top tax bracket. Bernie has actually proposed a top bracket of nearly 80%.

Now let me ask a simple question...

If I’m a business owner why would I take all the risk with my money to give 80 cents of every dollar to the government. That’s the problem with socialism, Democratic or otherwise,; no incentive to be productive or innovative.

If I’m the business owner I’m taking my company out of the country or I will just shut it down and keep my money in my pocket.

Liberals are bad enough. They act like you can saddle businesses with high taxes and the golden goose with just keep laying those golden eggs. Socialists kill the golden goose, and expect it to keep laying eggs.

You can’t socialize anything and improve it. Medicine, for example, as the linked article points out, is substandard in the Nordic Countries. Bernie doesn’t tell anyone that as he tries to sell his plan. My Canadian friends come across the border for healthcare in the States.

Finally one of the biggest problems I have with socialism is the free education. I paid for my education. I paid for my three children. All with advanced degrees. If they eliminate all student loans, I want a damn refund. Why should I or anyone else that worked two jobs to pay for school not get a refund? Just because millennials are too damn lazy to work and pay off their loans, how come I have to pay higher taxes.

Yep, for some illogical reason socialist supporters actually think that if they increase taxes even more on the rich that same capital will still be there to be taxed at that higher rate. I don't understand why they can't think that part through.

They generally don’t talk about how they are going to pay for all those social programs. They want the electorate to get wrapped up in all the free stuff and not worry about the cost.
That’s a big reason Bernie is so popular with young people.