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RE: ASun Committed to Expansion - mturn017 - 01-23-2020 10:06 AM
(01-23-2020 09:50 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:(01-23-2020 09:31 AM)Blue_Trombone Wrote: IF it's the beginnings of the FBS East Coast Conference, here's how I see it playing out:
1) ASUN expands to 20 teams. Right now the ASUN and CCSA are separate entities. ASUN still has their normal autobid and CCSA is still a single sport conference.
2) The ASUN 7 (plus UNA and Bellarmine, and maybe a few others D-II expansion candidates) join the CCSA. The CCSA is now a multisport conference. Due to the continuity rule (or whatever they decide to use) the CCSA now has an autobid as well. ...
Except, they don't. The continuity rule for a multi-sports conference is eight years operating as a multi-sports conference.
The "whatever they decide to use" is they apply for a waiver of the requirement, as the new Big East did, though without the argument that the new Big East had, that the by laws for the C7 leaving their previous conference were created based on the previous continuity rule, and so they should be allowed to use the old rule.
And then, unlike the new Big East (which is not taking ANY at-large Tourney spots away from anybody with their autobid), the NCAA answers "please give use an extra annual NCAA tournament unit that we are not entitled to under the rules" with "No", and it's back to square one.
Any evidence that the C7 actually applied to the NCAA for a Waiver? The ASUN was established in 1978 so it's Bylaws were created when the old rules existed as well. I'm not sure how well "the Big East is better at basketball than you" would hold up in court when the NCAA set this precedent.
RE: ASun Committed to Expansion - MUsince96 - 01-23-2020 10:08 AM
(01-23-2020 09:58 AM)DoubleRSU Wrote: App St leaving the Sun Belt for this thing LMAO!
If they get to be in an eastern based football league with GA Southern, Marshall, and Charlotte I don't know what's so funny about it.
RE: ASun Committed to Expansion - Bogg - 01-23-2020 10:16 AM
(01-23-2020 09:50 AM)lion1983 Wrote: If the ASUN pulls out, the Big South losses any power and an AQ spot in the FCS playoffs.
I mean, not quite. They need 6 teams and would have 4, right? If they kept Monmouth from jumping they could keep their auto-bid by adding one football-playing school, or two if Monmouth was insistent on leaving. That's not exactly a position of no leverage when dealing with the two ASUN schools that sponsor football and don't have an obvious other home.
If the Big South schools are on board then good for everyone, but they can't really be forced.
RE: ASun Committed to Expansion - Wedge - 01-23-2020 10:35 AM
(01-23-2020 10:06 AM)mturn017 Wrote: I'm not sure how well "the Big East is better at basketball than you" would hold up in court when the NCAA set this precedent.
Whether or not teams are good in basketball is absolutely relevant, because the ONLY issue here is basketball tournament money. Without the autobid rules, there’s no restriction at all on the number of autobids.
Also, if the strategy is to get judges to blow up the NCAA’s basketball tournament rules, then blow up all the rules. Get rid of the NCAA rule that requires any Division I team invited to March Madness to either play in the NCAA’s own tournament or no tournament at all. Then Duke, Kentucky, and the other big names can opt out of the NCAA tournament and move to a new tournament where they select the participating teams and those teams split up all the profit, and CBS and Turner can stop paying for the NCAA tournament.
RE: ASun Committed to Expansion - lion1983 - 01-23-2020 10:35 AM
(01-23-2020 10:16 AM)Bogg Wrote:(01-23-2020 09:50 AM)lion1983 Wrote: If the ASUN pulls out, the Big South losses any power and an AQ spot in the FCS playoffs.
I mean, not quite. They need 6 teams and would have 4, right? If they kept Monmouth from jumping they could keep their auto-bid by adding one football-playing school, or two if Monmouth was insistent on leaving. That's not exactly a position of no leverage when dealing with the two ASUN schools that sponsor football and don't have an obvious other home.
If the Big South schools are on board then good for everyone, but they can't really be forced.
Big South football schools
Charlston Southern
Gardner Webb
Hampton
Campbell
Presbyterian is out of scholarship football
Monmouth isnt a Big South Member full time.
UNA and KSU are ASUN members.
You cant have a 4 team conference with AQ and nobody in the region is looking to move to the Big South.
So, the Big South drops football, those schools need a home, this UAC is born. Monmouth will more than likely play in it as well. And may partner with another conference to allow their members to play football in the UAC as well. But to start, it will be the current ASUN/Big South with a different name for football FCS only...
The Big South will be a non-football conference.
RE: ASun Committed to Expansion - Blue_Trombone - 01-23-2020 10:37 AM
(01-23-2020 10:08 AM)MUsince96 Wrote:(01-23-2020 09:58 AM)DoubleRSU Wrote: App St leaving the Sun Belt for this thing LMAO!
If they get to be in an eastern based football league with GA Southern, Marshall, and Charlotte I don't know what's so funny about it.
Yeah, if I were to guess to the membership of the conference:
Liberty
ODU
Charlotte
Marshall
WKU
MTSU
UAB
App St
Georgia State
Georgia Southern
CCU
JMU
Here is my reasoning for including these schools:
1) I think Liberty is driving the bus on this so they're in duh.
2) C-USA East would obviously be interested. I didn't include FIU or FAU because if they're included with the rest of C-USA East then they would have 7 members that have been together 8 years so why wouldn't they just skip the ASUN nonsense. (and yes I know that apparently "continuity" is not the same anymore but I'm trying to use the logic the ASUN is using). I included UAB because I think they have more in common with the above schools than the remaining C-USA schools.
3) Sunbelt East. Didn't include USA/Troy because I'm not certain if they would fit in with this conference.
4) JMU because unless the ASUN 7+ adds more members past UNA/Bellarmine then to get to 20 UAC needs 12 members. JMU seems like a good fit.
JMU and CCU could be replaced with other schools but in my mind this is my best bet.
I could see a lot of schools being interested in this makeup.
RE: ASun Committed to Expansion - maybeimhere - 01-23-2020 10:38 AM
I agree with the thoughts about this being a new east coast g5 conference vehicle. Let the cusa die. It never should have existed in the first place. The sun belt can continue as a more westerly conference. And reinvite nmsu if boise doesnt leave the mwc.
RE: ASun Committed to Expansion - lion1983 - 01-23-2020 11:02 AM
(01-23-2020 10:37 AM)Blue_Trombone Wrote:(01-23-2020 10:08 AM)MUsince96 Wrote:(01-23-2020 09:58 AM)DoubleRSU Wrote: App St leaving the Sun Belt for this thing LMAO!
If they get to be in an eastern based football league with GA Southern, Marshall, and Charlotte I don't know what's so funny about it.
Yeah, if I were to guess to the membership of the conference:
Liberty
ODU
Charlotte
Marshall
WKU
MTSU
UAB
App St
Georgia State
Georgia Southern
CCU
JMU
Here is my reasoning for including these schools:
1) I think Liberty is driving the bus on this so they're in duh.
2) C-USA East would obviously be interested. I didn't include FIU or FAU because if they're included with the rest of C-USA East then they would have 7 members that have been together 8 years so why wouldn't they just skip the ASUN nonsense. (and yes I know that apparently "continuity" is not the same anymore but I'm trying to use the logic the ASUN is using). I included UAB because I think they have more in common with the above schools than the remaining C-USA schools.
3) Sunbelt East. Didn't include USA/Troy because I'm not certain if they would fit in with this conference.
4) JMU because unless the ASUN 7+ adds more members past UNA/Bellarmine then to get to 20 UAC needs 12 members. JMU seems like a good fit.
JMU and CCU could be replaced with other schools but in my mind this is my best bet.
I could see a lot of schools being interested in this makeup.
Right track, wrong ballpark....
The C-USA members that will move will be part of a 20 school conference. The 10 from the ASUN plus the new 10 members from C-USA and maybe the Sun Belt.
The UAC (United Athletic Conference) will be a football only conference in FCS for those schools that dont play FBS football (UNA, KSU, Stetson, and any other member that wants to start football) those schools will also have a home in FBS if they choose to play FBS football in the future.
The remaining C-USA and Sun Belt schools will merge.
RE: ASun Committed to Expansion - Bogg - 01-23-2020 11:04 AM
(01-23-2020 10:35 AM)lion1983 Wrote:(01-23-2020 10:16 AM)Bogg Wrote:(01-23-2020 09:50 AM)lion1983 Wrote: If the ASUN pulls out, the Big South losses any power and an AQ spot in the FCS playoffs.
I mean, not quite. They need 6 teams and would have 4, right? If they kept Monmouth from jumping they could keep their auto-bid by adding one football-playing school, or two if Monmouth was insistent on leaving. That's not exactly a position of no leverage when dealing with the two ASUN schools that sponsor football and don't have an obvious other home.
If the Big South schools are on board then good for everyone, but they can't really be forced.
Big South football schools
Charlston Southern
Gardner Webb
Hampton
Campbell
Presbyterian is out of scholarship football
Monmouth isnt a Big South Member full time.
UNA and KSU are ASUN members.
You cant have a 4 team conference with AQ and nobody in the region is looking to move to the Big South.
So, the Big South drops football, those schools need a home, this UAC is born. Monmouth will more than likely play in it as well. And may partner with another conference to allow their members to play football in the UAC as well. But to start, it will be the current ASUN/Big South with a different name for football FCS only...
The Big South will be a non-football conference.
Now, if the Big South just doesn't want the headache of dealing with football and this makes it easier for their members to explore dropping football or going non-scholarship down the road that's one thing and I get it. However, if this is two schools attempting a hostile takeover of a seven-team conference without the other members cooperation then that's a whole bunch of spinning plates that could come crashing down with a single D-2 school accepting a D-1 invite.
They need the Big South's (or at least the four football Big South schools) cooperation. If they don't currently have it, I'd be interested in knowing what UNA's planned response is if (picking a random school) Catawba College is on the other line.
RE: ASun Committed to Expansion - mturn017 - 01-23-2020 11:09 AM
(01-23-2020 10:35 AM)Wedge Wrote:(01-23-2020 10:06 AM)mturn017 Wrote: I'm not sure how well "the Big East is better at basketball than you" would hold up in court when the NCAA set this precedent.
Whether or not teams are good in basketball is absolutely relevant, because the ONLY issue here is basketball tournament money. Without the autobid rules, there’s no restriction at all on the number of autobids.
Also, if the strategy is to get judges to blow up the NCAA’s basketball tournament rules, then blow up all the rules. Get rid of the NCAA rule that requires any Division I team invited to March Madness to either play in the NCAA’s own tournament or no tournament at all. Then Duke, Kentucky, and the other big names can opt out of the NCAA tournament and move to a new tournament where they select the participating teams and those teams split up all the profit, and CBS and Turner can stop paying for the NCAA tournament.
Well according to the ASUN press release this is exactly what they're planning and they reference the C7 directly. Maybe the plan is for CUSA or SB to dissolve in the process. The remaining, mostly western schools probably wouldn't want to leave one or two schools to rebuild another FBS conference and they wouldn't want to pay exit fees or leave their the conferences cash they just collected from the eastern schools leaving. So accept invites to the Sun Belt and vote to dissolve CUSA.
RE: ASun Committed to Expansion - mturn017 - 01-23-2020 11:12 AM
(01-23-2020 11:02 AM)lion1983 Wrote:(01-23-2020 10:37 AM)Blue_Trombone Wrote:(01-23-2020 10:08 AM)MUsince96 Wrote:(01-23-2020 09:58 AM)DoubleRSU Wrote: App St leaving the Sun Belt for this thing LMAO!
If they get to be in an eastern based football league with GA Southern, Marshall, and Charlotte I don't know what's so funny about it.
Yeah, if I were to guess to the membership of the conference:
Liberty
ODU
Charlotte
Marshall
WKU
MTSU
UAB
App St
Georgia State
Georgia Southern
CCU
JMU
Here is my reasoning for including these schools:
1) I think Liberty is driving the bus on this so they're in duh.
2) C-USA East would obviously be interested. I didn't include FIU or FAU because if they're included with the rest of C-USA East then they would have 7 members that have been together 8 years so why wouldn't they just skip the ASUN nonsense. (and yes I know that apparently "continuity" is not the same anymore but I'm trying to use the logic the ASUN is using). I included UAB because I think they have more in common with the above schools than the remaining C-USA schools.
3) Sunbelt East. Didn't include USA/Troy because I'm not certain if they would fit in with this conference.
4) JMU because unless the ASUN 7+ adds more members past UNA/Bellarmine then to get to 20 UAC needs 12 members. JMU seems like a good fit.
JMU and CCU could be replaced with other schools but in my mind this is my best bet.
I could see a lot of schools being interested in this makeup.
Right track, wrong ballpark....
The C-USA members that will move will be part of a 20 school conference. The 10 from the ASUN plus the new 10 members from C-USA and maybe the Sun Belt.
The UAC (United Athletic Conference) will be a football only conference in FCS for those schools that dont play FBS football (UNA, KSU, Stetson, and any other member that wants to start football) those schools will also have a home in FBS if they choose to play FBS football in the future.
The remaining C-USA and Sun Belt schools will merge.
No. We're not merging with the ASUN into a 20 member conference. Not for more than a few days. I can assure you of that.
RE: ASun Committed to Expansion - Wedge - 01-23-2020 11:24 AM
(01-23-2020 11:09 AM)mturn017 Wrote:(01-23-2020 10:35 AM)Wedge Wrote:(01-23-2020 10:06 AM)mturn017 Wrote: I'm not sure how well "the Big East is better at basketball than you" would hold up in court when the NCAA set this precedent.
Whether or not teams are good in basketball is absolutely relevant, because the ONLY issue here is basketball tournament money. Without the autobid rules, there’s no restriction at all on the number of autobids.
Also, if the strategy is to get judges to blow up the NCAA’s basketball tournament rules, then blow up all the rules. Get rid of the NCAA rule that requires any Division I team invited to March Madness to either play in the NCAA’s own tournament or no tournament at all. Then Duke, Kentucky, and the other big names can opt out of the NCAA tournament and move to a new tournament where they select the participating teams and those teams split up all the profit, and CBS and Turner can stop paying for the NCAA tournament.
Well according to the ASUN press release this is exactly what they're planning and they reference the C7 directly. Maybe the plan is for CUSA or SB to dissolve in the process. The remaining, mostly western schools probably wouldn't want to leave one or two schools to rebuild another FBS conference and they wouldn't want to pay exit fees or leave their the conferences cash they just collected from the eastern schools leaving. So accept invites to the Sun Belt and vote to dissolve CUSA.
It does sound like what they are planning, but I wouldn't expect the NCAA to green-light it unless the end result is that the number of autobids stays the same.
Even if the idea is to dissolve CUSA or the Sun Belt and effectively take their autobid -- IIRC, both of those conferences turned Liberty down when Liberty wanted in, even when Liberty offered to write an enormous check to get in. So if the theory is that schools who voted against Liberty are now going to pay their current conference an exit fee in order to join Liberty in a different conference, that might not be a solid theory. Maybe they have a list of Sun Belt and CUSA schools who didn't oppose Liberty and those are the schools they are targeting.
RE: ASun Committed to Expansion - lion1983 - 01-23-2020 11:24 AM
It's the start of the MEGA Conferences peaple have been talking about... just sayin...
RE: ASun Committed to Expansion - DoubleRSU - 01-23-2020 11:38 AM
App St and Liberty just signed a football series in 2025 & 2024. Sure doesn’t sound like they’re going to be conference mates. Some of you are blowing this out of proportion
https://fbschedules.com/appalachian-state-liberty-schedule-football-series-for-2024-2025/
RE: ASun Committed to Expansion - mturn017 - 01-23-2020 11:40 AM
(01-23-2020 11:24 AM)Wedge Wrote:(01-23-2020 11:09 AM)mturn017 Wrote:(01-23-2020 10:35 AM)Wedge Wrote:(01-23-2020 10:06 AM)mturn017 Wrote: I'm not sure how well "the Big East is better at basketball than you" would hold up in court when the NCAA set this precedent.
Whether or not teams are good in basketball is absolutely relevant, because the ONLY issue here is basketball tournament money. Without the autobid rules, there’s no restriction at all on the number of autobids.
Also, if the strategy is to get judges to blow up the NCAA’s basketball tournament rules, then blow up all the rules. Get rid of the NCAA rule that requires any Division I team invited to March Madness to either play in the NCAA’s own tournament or no tournament at all. Then Duke, Kentucky, and the other big names can opt out of the NCAA tournament and move to a new tournament where they select the participating teams and those teams split up all the profit, and CBS and Turner can stop paying for the NCAA tournament.
Well according to the ASUN press release this is exactly what they're planning and they reference the C7 directly. Maybe the plan is for CUSA or SB to dissolve in the process. The remaining, mostly western schools probably wouldn't want to leave one or two schools to rebuild another FBS conference and they wouldn't want to pay exit fees or leave their the conferences cash they just collected from the eastern schools leaving. So accept invites to the Sun Belt and vote to dissolve CUSA.
It does sound like what they are planning, but I wouldn't expect the NCAA to green-light it unless the end result is that the number of autobids stays the same.
Even if the idea is to dissolve CUSA or the Sun Belt and effectively take their autobid -- IIRC, both of those conferences turned Liberty down when Liberty wanted in, even when Liberty offered to write an enormous check to get in. So if the theory is that schools who voted against Liberty are now going to pay their current conference an exit fee in order to join Liberty in a different conference, that might not be a solid theory. Maybe they have a list of Sun Belt and CUSA schools who didn't oppose Liberty and those are the schools they are targeting.
Good point. The ASUN could be planning something else completely. I know for certain that ODU has no qualms with Liberty. CUSA was already at 14 members but the SB turned them down in favor of CCU, no doubts about that.
RE: ASun Committed to Expansion - DavidSt - 01-23-2020 11:40 AM
Schools looking for a full all sports conference.
North Carolina A&T
Texas Southern
Southern U.
Robert Morris
Monmouth
Murray State
NC A&T wants FBS
Texas Southern looking at the Southland along with Southern
Robert Morris been very open for a new conference.
Monmouth would love to be in a conference for all sports. They could pair with NJIT.
D2 targets:
UAH
Albany State the largest HBCU in D2.
Arkansas Tech be an outlier.
Augusta was exploring to go D1.
Bentley is too far north.
Bridgeport too far away.
Caldwell in Jersey
University of Charleston a school with an FBS size stadium, but they need to gain 5000+ students when they are under 1500 students enrolled.
Christian Brothers in Memphis
Clark Atlanta
Columbus State was looking to go D1 or add football.
Delta State
Florida Tech
Francis Marion
Harding
Indiana, Pa. was looking to go D1
Kentucky State needs to upped the students more.
Kutztown
Lenoir-Rhyne
Le Moyne was thinking of going D1.
Limestone
Lincoln Memorial
Lindenwood
Lock Haven
Mississippi College
Missouri S&T
UMSL
New Haven
NYIT
UNC-Pembroke needs a home for all of their sports including football.
North Greenville
Nova Southeastern
Pace
Post
Queens-Charlotte
Rollins
Tampa
Tuskegee
Union, Tenn.
Valdosta State
West Alabama
West Chester
West Florida
West Georgia
Christopher Newport
Mary Washington
Salisbury
Rowan wanted to be in D1 by 2023. The D3 t0 D1 loophole and this would get their dreams come true. Pick or choose from all of these schools on who are willing to move up.
RE: ASun Committed to Expansion - mturn017 - 01-23-2020 11:43 AM
(01-23-2020 11:38 AM)DoubleRSU Wrote: App St and Liberty just signed a football series in 2025 & 2024. Sure doesn’t sound like they’re going to be conference mates. Some of you are blowing this out of proportion
https://fbschedules.com/appalachian-state-liberty-schedule-football-series-for-2024-2025/
That's easy enough to undo.
We know the ASUN is contemplating creating a new conference. We don't know why. It's a strange development and is going to spur a lot of speculation until more is known.
RE: ASun Committed to Expansion - lion1983 - 01-23-2020 11:46 AM
(01-23-2020 11:43 AM)mturn017 Wrote:(01-23-2020 11:38 AM)DoubleRSU Wrote: App St and Liberty just signed a football series in 2025 & 2024. Sure doesn’t sound like they’re going to be conference mates. Some of you are blowing this out of proportion
https://fbschedules.com/appalachian-state-liberty-schedule-football-series-for-2024-2025/
That's easy enough to undo.
We know the ASUN is contemplating creating a new conference. We don't know why. It's a strange development and is going to spur a lot of speculation until more is known.
That's the only hard fact in this situation so far...
RE: ASun Committed to Expansion - DavidSt - 01-23-2020 11:47 AM
(01-23-2020 10:37 AM)Blue_Trombone Wrote:(01-23-2020 10:08 AM)MUsince96 Wrote:(01-23-2020 09:58 AM)DoubleRSU Wrote: App St leaving the Sun Belt for this thing LMAO!
If they get to be in an eastern based football league with GA Southern, Marshall, and Charlotte I don't know what's so funny about it.
Yeah, if I were to guess to the membership of the conference:
Liberty
ODU
Charlotte
Marshall
WKU
MTSU
UAB
App St
Georgia State
Georgia Southern
CCU
JMU
Here is my reasoning for including these schools:
1) I think Liberty is driving the bus on this so they're in duh.
2) C-USA East would obviously be interested. I didn't include FIU or FAU because if they're included with the rest of C-USA East then they would have 7 members that have been together 8 years so why wouldn't they just skip the ASUN nonsense. (and yes I know that apparently "continuity" is not the same anymore but I'm trying to use the logic the ASUN is using). I included UAB because I think they have more in common with the above schools than the remaining C-USA schools.
3) Sunbelt East. Didn't include USA/Troy because I'm not certain if they would fit in with this conference.
4) JMU because unless the ASUN 7+ adds more members past UNA/Bellarmine then to get to 20 UAC needs 12 members. JMU seems like a good fit.
JMU and CCU could be replaced with other schools but in my mind this is my best bet.
I could see a lot of schools being interested in this makeup.
What if Coastal Carolina not part of this but Delaware moves with JMU? I rather have Delaware instead of CCU.
RE: ASun Committed to Expansion - lion1983 - 01-23-2020 11:48 AM
(01-23-2020 11:40 AM)DavidSt Wrote: Schools looking for a full all sports conference.No, I feel like the whole point to this is not to be a D2 call up conference anymore. And a lot of those schools have publicly said they have no desire to move to D1.
North Carolina A&T
Texas Southern
Southern U.
Robert Morris
Monmouth
Murray State
NC A&T wants FBS
Texas Southern looking at the Southland along with Southern
Robert Morris been very open for a new conference.
Monmouth would love to be in a conference for all sports. They could pair with NJIT.
D2 targets:
UAH
Albany State the largest HBCU in D2.
Arkansas Tech be an outlier.
Augusta was exploring to go D1.
Bentley is too far north.
Bridgeport too far away.
Caldwell in Jersey
University of Charleston a school with an FBS size stadium, but they need to gain 5000+ students when they are under 1500 students enrolled.
Christian Brothers in Memphis
Clark Atlanta
Columbus State was looking to go D1 or add football.
Delta State
Florida Tech
Francis Marion
Harding
Indiana, Pa. was looking to go D1
Kentucky State needs to upped the students more.
Kutztown
Lenoir-Rhyne
Le Moyne was thinking of going D1.
Limestone
Lincoln Memorial
Lindenwood
Lock Haven
Mississippi College
Missouri S&T
UMSL
New Haven
NYIT
UNC-Pembroke needs a home for all of their sports including football.
North Greenville
Nova Southeastern
Pace
Post
Queens-Charlotte
Rollins
Tampa
Tuskegee
Union, Tenn.
Valdosta State
West Alabama
West Chester
West Florida
West Georgia
Christopher Newport
Mary Washington
Salisbury
Rowan wanted to be in D1 by 2023. The D3 t0 D1 loophole and this would get their dreams come true. Pick or choose from all of these schools on who are willing to move up.