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Value of Coaching? - Dukester - 11-07-2018 10:40 AM
(Cent and Deez, sorry I made you open this thread)
Where do folks sit on this subject? (for this discussion I'm not referring to recruiting)
Some say it's ultimately up to the players. They are the ones on the field/court.
Some believe a coach can make a crappy set of players a great team or a talented bunch of players average or worst.
Most fall in between.
I side on the coach has tremendous value including motivation, game plan, technique, etc.
What the value between a great coach and crappy coach in college football?
I'd argue between a "great" and "bad" coach is 2-3 touchdowns. I think it's as easy at looking at Houston's first two years and Withers last two years. Withers had Vad Lee. The talent was very similar. Look at the JMU the beginning of his first year, versus the end of the year.
Another example look at Florida State after a coaching change. Jimbo Fisher had them a top 10 program. This year after a coaching change FSU looks like an upper level FCS team.
What is the value in Baseball?
I think baseball may be less valuable than other sports, but I think it still has a lot of value.
Washington Nationals ownership spent $200 million on player salaries, but got a first year head coach for under $1 million last year. How did that work? They were arguably the most under achieving team in baseball.
What do you think the difference is in college basketball?
I believe Larranaga & Campanelli have been great coaches.
I believe they could make the difference in coaching of 5-7 points a game versus Brady, and more than that versus Lou Rowe.
With that said, I think recruiting certainly can play into the equation, but a good set of players can look pretty average with a poor coach.
Going back to Football - under Witters
- JMU lost at home in the playoffs versus Colgate
- JMU lost at home in the playoffs versus Liberty
Under Houston with the same players I believe we would of won these games going away.
RE: Value of Coaching? - Purplehazed - 11-07-2018 02:25 PM
I used to think coaches don't matter. I now know coaches do matter, a lot.
In the office too, bad leaders kill departments/companies.
RE: Value of Coaching? - BSKB 24 - 11-07-2018 02:40 PM
Great coaches are few and far between. When you get one never let him/her go. There is something intrinsic within the great ones. It is so much more than a touchdown or so many points per game. It is much, much more complicated than that. Houston is the complete package. I've seen every coach that has ever coached at JMU since 1969. In my opinion, he is the best we have ever had in any sport.
RE: Value of Coaching? - Centdukesfan - 11-07-2018 03:12 PM
(11-07-2018 02:40 PM)BSKB 24 Wrote: Great coaches are few and far between. When you get one never let him/her go. There is something intrinsic within the great ones. It is so much more than a touchdown or so many points per game. It is much, much more complicated than that. Houston is the complete package. I've seen every coach that has ever coached at JMU since 1969. In my opinion, he is the best we have ever had in any sport.
almost as good as GOAT HCLR
RE: Value of Coaching? - DirtyDukes - 11-07-2018 03:22 PM
I'm a little bummed at how salty he seems during interviews this week, and while I get why he won't answer who is starting I don't think it's fair to be mad at people for asking the question. It's a fair question. You can politely decline to answer it.
RE: Value of Coaching? - Hart Foundation - 11-07-2018 03:45 PM
I’ve always felt that it is different in the pros and coaches have less impact there, but still are difference makers between bad and good teams or good and great teams.
However, in college I feel they are hugely impactful and the coach = the program.
I’m always looking to see if the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. That means you have an excellent coach. This manifests itself in what we call upsets. On paper it looks like a team shouldn’t win a game, but they do and they do it quite often.
On the other hand, a team that gets upset more than its fair share has a coaching problem.
Of course you can’t separate the recruiting from the coaching because it all has one result in wins or losses.
Lefty wasn’t a great coach, but he was a great recruiter and that compensated for his weakness.
What matters is the proof in the pudding. Just win baby.
Regarding each sport, I think Coaching impacts them in this order:
1 - Football. Every play is a called play and there is stop action to think about the next play. Lots o’ strategy and scheming from the coach. There is even time to discuss amongst the coaching staff for good ideas in between plays.
2- Basketball. A mix of called plays and free lance action. There are times of stop action but a lot of the game is continuous with less chances for in depth coaching. Lots of quick on the fly direction.
3- Baseball. The least impact of all. Most of the game is centered in he Pitcher/Batter faceoff. It is hard to make a coaching impact when the ball isn’t put into play. There are certainly a ton of pitching changes for matchups, but a computer nerd in the press box can call down to a figurehead coach and tell him what the best statistical choice is.
RE: Value of Coaching? - jmufbs - 11-07-2018 03:48 PM
(11-07-2018 03:22 PM)DirtyDukes Wrote: I'm a little bummed at how salty he seems during interviews this week, and while I get why he won't answer who is starting I don't think it's fair to be mad at people for asking the question. It's a fair question. You can politely decline to answer it.
If he wasn't pissed, i'd be worried.
i am not sure i'd want to be a Rhode Island Ram this week - If houston is in a bad mood, think about the 65 guys in practice. It is not fun going through a week like this as a player.
RE: Value of Coaching? - BleedingPurple - 11-07-2018 03:49 PM
(11-07-2018 02:40 PM)BSKB 24 Wrote: Great coaches are few and far between. When you get one never let him/her go. There is something intrinsic within the great ones. It is so much more than a touchdown or so many points per game. It is much, much more complicated than that. Houston is the complete package. I've seen every coach that has ever coached at JMU since 1969. In my opinion, he is the best we have ever had in any sport.
I'd say 2nd best. Campanelli did way more with less. Houston has gotten everything he needs to be very competitive against similar or less competition. Campanelli did not have anywhere close to everything he needed to compete against equal to or greater competition and still was a winner. Houston is the man, so please don't think I feel anything less.
Also, you have a lot more, no, an astronomical amount more clout to state your thoughts than I do, but from somewhat of an outsider who watched both men do their thing, I place LC at the very top of JMU coaches. Also, Campanelli was paid peanuts compared to the coaches he coached against, where Houston is very well compensated in comparison to those he goes up against.
RE: Value of Coaching? - JMaddy - 11-07-2018 03:49 PM
(11-07-2018 03:12 PM)Centdukesfan Wrote:(11-07-2018 02:40 PM)BSKB 24 Wrote: Great coaches are few and far between. When you get one never let him/her go. There is something intrinsic within the great ones. It is so much more than a touchdown or so many points per game. It is much, much more complicated than that. Houston is the complete package. I've seen every coach that has ever coached at JMU since 1969. In my opinion, he is the best we have ever had in any sport.
almost as good as GOAT HCLR
I realized that is probably aimed at the naysayers who didn't like the hire, but you're really mocking Lou when you write that. Not sure what the poor man has done to be made a joke like this. Its like saying GOAT starting QB Ryan Tannehill.
RE: Value of Coaching? - DirtyDukes - 11-07-2018 03:51 PM
(11-07-2018 03:48 PM)jmufbs Wrote:(11-07-2018 03:22 PM)DirtyDukes Wrote: I'm a little bummed at how salty he seems during interviews this week, and while I get why he won't answer who is starting I don't think it's fair to be mad at people for asking the question. It's a fair question. You can politely decline to answer it.
If he wasn't pissed, i'd be worried.
i am not sure i'd want to be a Rhode Island Ram this week - If houston is in a bad mood, think about the 65 guys in practice. It is not fun going through a week like this as a player.
You can be gruff and pissed but not take it out on the journalists whose job it is to ask the question.
RE: Value of Coaching? - bobbyjmu - 11-07-2018 04:18 PM
I'd be concerned if HCMH wasn't salty this week, wouldn't you be? I hope he has been even more salty to the players. This is the most challenging and stressful run of games he has been subject to while @ JMU (not comparing to Championship games), I want him to be salty. His salty is totally different then coach Withers being salty.
RE: Value of Coaching? - JMaddy - 11-07-2018 04:21 PM
(11-07-2018 04:18 PM)bobbyjmu Wrote: I'd be concerned if HCMH wasn't salty this week, wouldn't you be? I hope he has been even more salty to the players. This is the most challenging and stressful run of games he has been subject to while @ JMU (not comparing to Championship games), I want him to be salty. His salty is totally different then coach Withers being salty.
There is nobody more salty than an undefeated Nick Saban.
Value of Coaching? - Centdukesfan - 11-07-2018 04:32 PM
I'm not mocking Lou at all. I'm more mocking the people who are so down on Lou, so overstating my optimism for Rowe is my way of communicating my unbridled optimism. If you follow my posts you might get that impression
RE: Value of Coaching? - BSKB 24 - 11-07-2018 05:13 PM
(11-07-2018 03:49 PM)BleedingPurple Wrote:(11-07-2018 02:40 PM)BSKB 24 Wrote: Great coaches are few and far between. When you get one never let him/her go. There is something intrinsic within the great ones. It is so much more than a touchdown or so many points per game. It is much, much more complicated than that. Houston is the complete package. I've seen every coach that has ever coached at JMU since 1969. In my opinion, he is the best we have ever had in any sport.
I'd say 2nd best. Campanelli did way more with less. Houston has gotten everything he needs to be very competitive against similar or less competition. Campanelli did not have anywhere close to everything he needed to compete against equal to or greater competition and still was a winner. Houston is the man, so please don't think I feel anything less.
Also, you have a lot more, no, an astronomical amount more clout to state your thoughts than I do, but from somewhat of an outsider who watched both men do their thing, I place LC at the very top of JMU coaches. Also, Campanelli was paid peanuts compared to the coaches he coached against, where Houston is very well compensated in comparison to those he goes up against.
I thought about this a lot before I said Mike Houston. I had the great fortune to have played for Lou Campanelli. He was an absolutely great coach. Perhaps we should say who was the greatest coach at JMU by sport. For sure, for me it would be Lou Campanelli in basketball, Mike Houston in football, Brad Babcock in baseball. Soccer, I'm not sure. Maybe Bob Vanderwalker.
RE: Value of Coaching? - Deez Nuts - 11-07-2018 05:45 PM
(11-07-2018 03:22 PM)DirtyDukes Wrote: I'm a little bummed at how salty he seems during interviews this week, and while I get why he won't answer who is starting I don't think it's fair to be mad at people for asking the question. It's a fair question. You can politely decline to answer it.
Aside from not giving it up to the press (Rhode Island's game prep), I'd venture a guess that the staff hasn't actually decided who will start, and my not until Friday night. If they don't like what they're seeing, or neither (Ben or Cole) QB emerges stronger in practice this week (5 days after the press conference), why commit to one guy on Tuesday?
RE: Value of Coaching? - #20fromalongtimeago - 11-07-2018 07:03 PM
Just like leadership and parenting coaching matters. You need to know your players and know what motivates them. One player might respond well to yelling while another needs reassurance and confidence. It's the job of position/assistant coaches to recognize the personality traits of their players and adjust. The job of the the head coach is to set structure, attitude, philosophy and culture. Also, it's the job of the head coach to hire the right assistant coaches that embrace his/her culture and philosophy.
Don't think for a minute that assistant coaches are not important and the right coach at the right time does not have a huge impact.
Also, HCMH should be salty and his players should know he's not happy. It's time for a "lock the gates" speech IMO.
RE: Value of Coaching? - jmuroadwarrior - 11-07-2018 07:04 PM
(11-07-2018 05:45 PM)Deez Nuts Wrote:(11-07-2018 03:22 PM)DirtyDukes Wrote: I'm a little bummed at how salty he seems during interviews this week, and while I get why he won't answer who is starting I don't think it's fair to be mad at people for asking the question. It's a fair question. You can politely decline to answer it.
Aside from not giving it up to the press (Rhode Island's game prep), I'd venture a guess that the staff hasn't actually decided who will start, and my not until Friday night. If they don't like what they're seeing, or neither (Ben or Cole) QB emerges stronger in practice this week (5 days after the press conference), why commit to one guy on Tuesday?
Are they both 100%?
RE: Value of Coaching? - Oldduke - 11-07-2018 07:36 PM
Having been around a number of coaches, I would say that the real value of a head coach is to hire good assistants. This is especially true in football with so many positions to coach up the players. I would say Houston has done a great job with that as well.
As for basketball, with fewer assistants, the head coach might have a bit more direct impact. But, having seen first hand the value of the basketball staff of the late 1970's. Campanelli was the "ring master" but assistant coach Ernie Nestor was the true mastermind behind those teams. He left JMU to become an asst. at Wake Forest and eventually the head coach at George Mason. His personality was that of the perfect asst. coach, not so much that of a head coach. There were countless times when Coach Nestor "made Lou look real smart."
RE: Value of Coaching? - Wear Purple - 11-07-2018 08:52 PM
(11-07-2018 07:36 PM)Oldduke Wrote: Having been around a number of coaches, I would say that the real value of a head coach is to hire good assistants. This is especially true in football with so many positions to coach up the players. I would say Houston has done a great job with that as well.
As for basketball, with fewer assistants, the head coach might have a bit more direct impact. But, having seen first hand the value of the basketball staff of the late 1970's. Campanelli was the "ring master" but assistant coach Ernie Nestor was the true mastermind behind those teams. He left JMU to become an asst. at Wake Forest and eventually the head coach at George Mason. His personality was that of the perfect asst. coach, not so much that of a head coach. There were countless times when Coach Nestor "made Lou look real smart."
Reminds me very much of Dean Keener. That is, the Asst Coach Dean Keener at Ga Tech and not the HC Dean Keener at JMU.
Rightfully so, most if not all JMU fans have a bad taste in their mouth when his name is brought up. Yet, if you go post Dean Keener's name on one of the several Ga Tech message boards, you'll quickly find that he is adored universally.
Paul Hewitt's job was to get the guys to Atlanta. Keener and fellow Asst Coach, Cliff Warren, really X-and-O'd the team and coached them up. Of course, as Paul Hewitt continued to lose favor among GT faithful leading up to his firing, the lore of Keener (and Warren) grew that they were more responsible for GT's run to the national title game in 2004 than the head coach. I don't buy all of that, perhaps not much of that, but it is funny how one fanbase's view of a head coach that failed is the complete opposite of a top Asst Coach that was part of a (big) winner.
RE: Value of Coaching? - Purple - 11-07-2018 09:04 PM
A head coach is an executive. His primary job is hiring the best and firing the others. He doesn't need to know a trap from a dive as long as he knows how to hire great assistants and give them the tools they need to succeed. And, of course, he must know how to recruit.