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RE: New School maybe - dancingNMSUaggie - 08-11-2019 05:58 PM
Denver will not come.
RE: New School maybe - NMSUPistolPete - 08-11-2019 06:23 PM
(08-11-2019 04:13 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:(08-11-2019 01:47 AM)NMSUPistolPete Wrote:(08-11-2019 12:20 AM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:(08-10-2019 10:04 PM)NMSUPistolPete Wrote: ????? Denver left the WAC because schools like Cal State Bakersfield, Utah Valley, and Grand Canyon didn't meet their academic standards as a conference peer. I doubt that attitude has changed since they left the WAC and joined the Summit.
So does every school meet their academic standard in the Summit? The rumor was they had a problem with GCU and their for-profit status. That was seven years ago with a different AD. GCU is not-for-profit. There are three private schools in the conference. Denver would make four. They should feel comfortable in the WAC.
Utah Valley and Cal State Bakersfield were also under scrutiny by Denver because both were not too removed from community college status when they joined the WAC. Less than 20 years ago, Utah Valley was a junior college.
I don't buy that. CSUB became part of the California State system in 1982. UVU has been a four year college since 1993. They have the largest student enrollment of any university in Utah at about 40,000 students. in 2016, UVU was ranked #634 out of 660 schools in the Forbes best colleges list. Denver has played UVU in men's basketball three times since leaving the WAC and twice in men's soccer.
The WAC is not the WCC. The WAC is a work-in-progress. Five years from now it may look different. If you are Denver, you are going nowhere in the Summit for men's basketball. If the WCC were to look at expansion down the road, western schools like GCU, CBU and Seattle are well positioned. These schools are playing in the west, recruiting in the west and all play baseball. Denver is a top 20 TV market, but the other three are in larger TV markets.
Denver needs to be good in basketball to get into the WCC. They are not getting in because they are great academically. Denver has excellent ice hockey, lacrosse and ski teams, but that means nothing to the WCC. They need to be good in basketball and joining a western conference like the WAC would be a smart move for them at this time. They need to put themselves in a position for a WCC bid if an opening or expansion comes up. In the meantime, they join three other western private schools, NMSU and UVU in what has turned out to be a solid basketball conference.
Keep in mind, Denver left the WAC six years ago (2013). At the time, Utah Valley had only been a four year institution 20 years; and prior to 2003 they competed as a Junior College (only 10 years at the time). So, 2016's Forbes best list ranking played no factor (in 2013) on Denver's decision to leave the WAC. Also, keep in mind, the reason Utah Valley has the largest enrollment in the State of Utah is probably because they have the lowest admissions standards in the state. As for the two schools competing after the fact, Denver is simply playing schools within the region for reduced travel cost. There are Southland schools NMSU plays periodically that they have no desire to have as a conference peer. Maybe in 2019, Denver has a better perception of the WAC. But in 2013, they had no desire to be affiliated with some of the members entering the conference.
BTW, in Denver's lone season in the WAC, they were the 2013 regular season Co-Champions in men's basketball along with Louisiana Tech. So, the administration probably had a higher opinion of itself when making the decision to leave the WAC for the Summit.
RE: New School maybe - dancingNMSUaggie - 08-12-2019 08:07 AM
Would love to see Denver join the WAC but its not gonna happen. Denver knows GCU is still a for profit no matter what they say and now with Dixie State joining, even less. They don't mind NMSU and Seattle who have the highest academic rating in the WAC but they don't want to be with anyone else, especially GCU.
RE: New School maybe - dancingNMSUaggie - 08-12-2019 08:09 AM
When Chicago State leaves, which is inevitable, will the WAC still have its auto bid with 7 schools?
RE: New School maybe - Lopes87 - 08-12-2019 10:32 AM
The WAC would have a 2 year grace period if/when they drop below the minimum for members.
RE: New School maybe - PojoaquePosse - 08-12-2019 11:03 AM
(08-11-2019 04:13 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:(08-11-2019 01:47 AM)NMSUPistolPete Wrote:(08-11-2019 12:20 AM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:(08-10-2019 10:04 PM)NMSUPistolPete Wrote: ????? Denver left the WAC because schools like Cal State Bakersfield, Utah Valley, and Grand Canyon didn't meet their academic standards as a conference peer. I doubt that attitude has changed since they left the WAC and joined the Summit.
So does every school meet their academic standard in the Summit? The rumor was they had a problem with GCU and their for-profit status. That was seven years ago with a different AD. GCU is not-for-profit. There are three private schools in the conference. Denver would make four. They should feel comfortable in the WAC.
Utah Valley and Cal State Bakersfield were also under scrutiny by Denver because both were not too removed from community college status when they joined the WAC. Less than 20 years ago, Utah Valley was a junior college.
I don't buy that. CSUB became part of the California State system in 1982. UVU has been a four year college since 1993. They have the largest student enrollment of any university in Utah at about 40,000 students. in 2016, UVU was ranked #634 out of 660 schools in the Forbes best colleges list. Denver has played UVU in men's basketball three times since leaving the WAC and twice in men's soccer.
The WAC is not the WCC. The WAC is a work-in-progress. Five years from now it may look different. If you are Denver, you are going nowhere in the Summit for men's basketball. If the WCC were to look at expansion down the road, western schools like GCU, CBU and Seattle are well positioned. These schools are playing in the west, recruiting in the west and all play baseball. Denver is a top 20 TV market, but the other three are in larger TV markets.
Denver needs to be good in basketball to get into the WCC. They are not getting in because they are great academically. Denver has excellent ice hockey, lacrosse and ski teams, but that means nothing to the WCC. They need to be good in basketball and joining a western conference like the WAC would be a smart move for them at this time. They need to put themselves in a position for a WCC bid if an opening or expansion comes up. In the meantime, they join three other western private schools, NMSU and UVU in what has turned out to be a solid basketball conference.
The WAC is a work in progress and may look very different in 5 years (I agree with all of this). That is why Denver should move? To an unstable conference that is in a constant state of flux? SMH...
Denver's #1 sport is hockey, we all agree on that. The WAC does nothing for them on that front. It's not about basketball, it's about hockey for them. Denver has no interest in the WAC.
On the other hand, the WAC would love Denver. It's in the west, the corporate offices are there and the WAC needs warm bodies. We could care less that their basketball teams stink. But Denver is not coming.
RE: New School maybe - HawaiiMongoose - 08-12-2019 11:36 AM
(08-12-2019 08:09 AM)dancingNMSUaggie Wrote: When Chicago State leaves, which is inevitable, will the WAC still have its auto bid with 7 schools?
Yes. The minimum number of full members for a non-FBS D-I conference is 7 (for FBS conferences it is 8). The WAC auto-bid will be unaffected.
Should someone else leave causing the WAC to drop below 7, the two-year NCAA grace period would automatically kick in, preserving the auto-bid while the WAC works to get membership back up to 7.
If getting back to 7 took more than two years the WAC could seek a waiver to hold onto the auto bid but the NCAA might not grant it.
RE: New School maybe - NoDak - 08-12-2019 04:33 PM
The WAC will be down to five full members after UMKC and Chicago St leave. Cal Baptist and Dixie St won’t count as full members for several years, so the WAC will run out of the two years grace period before.
The NCAA is run by the P5, which doesn’t like autobids for small conferences, but like at large bids for P5 schools.
The WAC needs to get at least two fully DI schools soon.[/i]
RE: New School maybe - PojoaquePosse - 08-12-2019 05:04 PM
(08-12-2019 04:33 PM)NoDak Wrote: The WAC will be down to five full members after UMKC and Chicago St leave. Cal Baptist and Dixie St won’t count as full members for several years, so the WAC will run out of the two years grace period before.
The NCAA is run by the P5, which doesn’t like autobids for small conferences, but like at large bids for P5 schools.
The WAC needs to get at least two fully DI schools soon.[/i]
So you are saying that the NCAA will not reward the WAC for being proactive and adding schools? They added them in the event that schools left. But because Cal Baptist and Dixie St are on probation the NCAA is gonna punish the WAC and remove the auto-bid? Get out of here with your nonsense...
RE: New School maybe - NMSUPistolPete - 08-12-2019 05:21 PM
After CBU's 1st season, it is now viewed by the NCAA as a D1 program and a full member of the WAC. CBU is simply required to maintain the D1 scheduling/participant requirements for the next four seasons to gain NCAA Tournament eligibility. The key is after this upcoming season; when we lose Cal State Bakersfield and UM Kansas City and possibly Chicago State; which could drop the WAC D1 membership to six. However, Dixie State would follow the same status as CBU (currently). Meeting the NCAA two year/7member requirement window by Dixie State's second year. Dixie State wont count toward the conference membership its first season but as of its' second season, Dixie State will be view as a D1 program and a full member of the WAC; bring the membership back up to 7.
RE: New School maybe - SDHornet - 08-12-2019 06:08 PM
(08-12-2019 05:04 PM)PojoaquePosse Wrote:(08-12-2019 04:33 PM)NoDak Wrote: The WAC will be down to five full members after UMKC and Chicago St leave. Cal Baptist and Dixie St won’t count as full members for several years, so the WAC will run out of the two years grace period before.
The NCAA is run by the P5, which doesn’t like autobids for small conferences, but like at large bids for P5 schools.
The WAC needs to get at least two fully DI schools soon.[/i]
So you are saying that the NCAA will not reward the WAC for being proactive and adding schools? They added them in the event that schools left. But because Cal Baptist and Dixie St are on probation the NCAA is gonna punish the WAC and remove the auto-bid? Get out of here with your nonsense...
This. The WAC is not going to lose its auto-bid unless something drastic happens like 2 or 3 more members leave. The WAC will be fine.
RE: New School maybe - NoDak - 08-12-2019 06:21 PM
(08-12-2019 05:21 PM)NMSUPistolPete Wrote: After CBU's 1st season, it is now viewed by the NCAA as a D1 program and a full member of the WAC. CBU is simply required to maintain the D1 scheduling/participant requirements for the next four seasons to gain NCAA Tournament eligibility. The key is after this upcoming season; when we lose Cal State Bakersfield and UM Kansas City and possibly Chicago State; which could drop the WAC D1 membership to six. However, Dixie State would follow the same status as CBU (currently). Meeting the NCAA two year/7member requirement window by Dixie State's second year. Dixie State wont count toward the conference membership its first season but as of its' second season, Dixie State will be view as a D1 program and a full member of the WAC; bring the membership back up to 7.
Full DI members can qualify for an autobid, which Dixie St and Cal Baptist can’t. Those schools will still be in transition that don’t count as full members. The transition always them to be treated like full members to otherDI members like Cal Baptist will be, but the NCAA does not consider them full members for several more years.
Not worried in the least for the WAC’s autobid, because the Big Sky, Summit will be exchanging schools and the Southland will be losing them.
It’s been worked out for years what’s coming..
RE: New School maybe - NoDak - 08-12-2019 06:32 PM
The WAC also has to comply with the three male team sport rule. At least six WAC members need to be sponsoring baseball and men’s soccer and all basketball. The Summit will be less that six members in men’s soccer and baseball when PFW leaves, making it necessary to get more schools. Men’s soccer and baseball are not common in that part of country, and most of them are needed by the MVC or the Horizon League.
Even though the future Summit has nine members in 2001, it still falls short of the needed sports to keep its autobid..
RE: New School maybe - NoDak - 08-12-2019 06:47 PM
The NCAA rules say seven “Active” DI members, not full members, must be in a conference. Cal Baptist is not an Active member because it can’t participate or be eligible in an official NCAA tournaments.
RE: New School maybe - SoCalBobcat78 - 08-12-2019 06:58 PM
(08-12-2019 06:32 PM)NoDak Wrote: The WAC also has to comply with the three male team sport rule. At least six WAC members need to be sponsoring baseball and men’s soccer and all basketball. The Summit will be less that six members in men’s soccer and baseball when PFW leaves, making it necessary to get more schools. Men’s soccer and baseball are not common in that part of country, and most of them are needed by the MVC or the Horizon League.
The Summit has been below six all-sports members in men's soccer for a number of years. They use Eastern Illinois for the 6th member. As you said, the Summit will fall to five baseball schools in 2021. They will need a waiver from the NCAA for baseball. The WAC will have 10 in baseball and 11 in men's soccer in 2020. They will be fine.
RE: New School maybe - NoDak - 08-12-2019 09:08 PM
(08-12-2019 06:58 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:(08-12-2019 06:32 PM)NoDak Wrote: The WAC also has to comply with the three male team sport rule. At least six WAC members need to be sponsoring baseball and men’s soccer and all basketball. The Summit will be less that six members in men’s soccer and baseball when PFW leaves, making it necessary to get more schools. Men’s soccer and baseball are not common in that part of country, and most of them are needed by the MVC or the Horizon League.
The Summit has been below six all-sports members in men's soccer for a number of years. They use Eastern Illinois for the 6th member. As you said, the Summit will fall to five baseball schools in 2021. They will need a waiver from the NCAA for baseball. The WAC will have 10 in baseball and 11 in men's soccer in 2020. They will be fine.
My understanding is that a league satisfies those three male team sports if it has men’s basketball with seven members, one with six active members, and one with five with one affiliate. The Summit will go out of compliance when PFW leaves.
The Summit should go back into compliance with seven FCS schools, which eliminates the need to sponsor the other two sports.
But that doesn’t change the fact that the WAC will have five active members after 2020 if Chicago St is kicked out. Hose affiliate won’t count for one sport. It would be like taking in single sport conferences that don’t have a single relationship to the WAC and saying they now do.
RE: New School maybe - SoCalBobcat78 - 08-12-2019 09:11 PM
(08-12-2019 09:08 PM)NoDak Wrote:(08-12-2019 06:58 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:(08-12-2019 06:32 PM)NoDak Wrote: The WAC also has to comply with the three male team sport rule. At least six WAC members need to be sponsoring baseball and men’s soccer and all basketball. The Summit will be less that six members in men’s soccer and baseball when PFW leaves, making it necessary to get more schools. Men’s soccer and baseball are not common in that part of country, and most of them are needed by the MVC or the Horizon League.
The Summit has been below six all-sports members in men's soccer for a number of years. They use Eastern Illinois for the 6th member. As you said, the Summit will fall to five baseball schools in 2021. They will need a waiver from the NCAA for baseball. The WAC will have 10 in baseball and 11 in men's soccer in 2020. They will be fine.
My understanding is that a league satisfies those three male team sports if it has men’s basketball with seven members, one with six, and one with five with one affiliate. The Summit will go out of compliance when PFW leaves.
It should go back into compliance with seven FCS schools, which eliminates the need to sponsor the other two sports.
Are you saying that the Summit is going to add football?
RE: New School maybe - NoDak - 08-12-2019 09:32 PM
(08-12-2019 09:11 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:It would change the whole dynamics and probably save it. The only schools that the Summit has interests publically are DII ones, and they don’t help for five years. Active DI schools are needed.(08-12-2019 09:08 PM)NoDak Wrote:(08-12-2019 06:58 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:(08-12-2019 06:32 PM)NoDak Wrote: The WAC also has to comply with the three male team sport rule. At least six WAC members need to be sponsoring baseball and men’s soccer and all basketball. The Summit will be less that six members in men’s soccer and baseball when PFW leaves, making it necessary to get more schools. Men’s soccer and baseball are not common in that part of country, and most of them are needed by the MVC or the Horizon League.
The Summit has been below six all-sports members in men's soccer for a number of years. They use Eastern Illinois for the 6th member. As you said, the Summit will fall to five baseball schools in 2021. They will need a waiver from the NCAA for baseball. The WAC will have 10 in baseball and 11 in men's soccer in 2020. They will be fine.
My understanding is that a league satisfies those three male team sports if it has men’s basketball with seven members, one with six, and one with five with one affiliate. The Summit will go out of compliance when PFW leaves.
It should go back into compliance with seven FCS schools, which eliminates the need to sponsor the other two sports.
Are you saying that the Summit is going to add football?
It makes no sense to have baseball and men’s soccer teams when the Dakotas do not sponsor many teams in those sports but spend millions in football, but it doesn’t count for anything.
RE: New School maybe - NMSUPistolPete - 08-12-2019 09:32 PM
(08-12-2019 09:11 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:(08-12-2019 09:08 PM)NoDak Wrote:(08-12-2019 06:58 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:(08-12-2019 06:32 PM)NoDak Wrote: The WAC also has to comply with the three male team sport rule. At least six WAC members need to be sponsoring baseball and men’s soccer and all basketball. The Summit will be less that six members in men’s soccer and baseball when PFW leaves, making it necessary to get more schools. Men’s soccer and baseball are not common in that part of country, and most of them are needed by the MVC or the Horizon League.
The Summit has been below six all-sports members in men's soccer for a number of years. They use Eastern Illinois for the 6th member. As you said, the Summit will fall to five baseball schools in 2021. They will need a waiver from the NCAA for baseball. The WAC will have 10 in baseball and 11 in men's soccer in 2020. They will be fine.
My understanding is that a league satisfies those three male team sports if it has men’s basketball with seven members, one with six, and one with five with one affiliate. The Summit will go out of compliance when PFW leaves.
It should go back into compliance with seven FCS schools, which eliminates the need to sponsor the other two sports.
Are you saying that the Summit is going to add football?
From what I gather, he thinks the Montana schools are going to leave an established FCS conference to create a new Summit FCS football conference with the Dakota schools, Western Illinois, and FOUR non-football playing schools (Oral Roberts, Denver, UM Kansas City, UN Omaha); not considering what a new Summit League football conference would do to the football playing Missouri Valley schools and their non-affiliated MVC football conference.
RE: New School maybe - NoDak - 08-12-2019 09:38 PM
(08-12-2019 09:32 PM)NMSUPistolPete Wrote:(08-12-2019 09:11 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:(08-12-2019 09:08 PM)NoDak Wrote:(08-12-2019 06:58 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:(08-12-2019 06:32 PM)NoDak Wrote: The WAC also has to comply with the three male team sport rule. At least six WAC members need to be sponsoring baseball and men’s soccer and all basketball. The Summit will be less that six members in men’s soccer and baseball when PFW leaves, making it necessary to get more schools. Men’s soccer and baseball are not common in that part of country, and most of them are needed by the MVC or the Horizon League.
The Summit has been below six all-sports members in men's soccer for a number of years. They use Eastern Illinois for the 6th member. As you said, the Summit will fall to five baseball schools in 2021. They will need a waiver from the NCAA for baseball. The WAC will have 10 in baseball and 11 in men's soccer in 2020. They will be fine.
My understanding is that a league satisfies those three male team sports if it has men’s basketball with seven members, one with six, and one with five with one affiliate. The Summit will go out of compliance when PFW leaves.
It should go back into compliance with seven FCS schools, which eliminates the need to sponsor the other two sports.
Are you saying that the Summit is going to add football?
From what I gather, he thinks the Montana schools are going to leave an established FCS conference to create a new Summit FCS football conference with the Dakota schools, Western Illinois, and FOUR non-football playing schools (Oral Roberts, Denver, UM Kansas City, UN Omaha).
ORU and UMKC will go to the WAC. WIU will go to the OVC. The Montanas, Idaho, EWU, and Weber St to the Summit so it will have a western division with Denver.
ORU left the Southland after two years when the Summit ran out of grace period after ORU previously left. It was critical that the Summit got back a baseball and men’s soccer team or lose their autobid.