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ban girl's soccer! - bullet - 07-10-2018 03:53 PM
http://newsroom.aaos.org/images/9064/media_gallery/ConcussionAbstractAAOS2017.pdf
As far as concussions, girl's soccer has the highest rate of incidence in high schools based on a study covering data from 2005-2015.
RE: ban girl's soccer! - Lord Stanley - 07-10-2018 04:07 PM
It ain't just concussions. Hell, the teenage daughter of a friend has had two ACL tears, surgeries, and recoveries because of soccer.
RE: ban girl's soccer! - Nerdlinger - 07-10-2018 04:21 PM
Ban all sports! No physical activity!
RE: ban girl's soccer! - Bogg - 07-10-2018 06:33 PM
(07-10-2018 03:53 PM)bullet Wrote: http://newsroom.aaos.org/images/9064/media_gallery/ConcussionAbstractAAOS2017.pdf
As far as concussions, girl's soccer has the highest rate of incidence in high schools based on a study covering data from 2005-2015.
No it doesn't. Based on the data you linked, it has the highest proportion of concussions relative to all injuries, not the highest incidence rate - this makes sense, you wouldn't expect to see the same amount of broken hands/wrists/fingers/arms or lacerations on a soccer player as you would a football player. The incidence rate is approaching that of football though, and it's triple the concussion rate of boy's soccer, which suggests sex-specific differences in susceptibility to concussions, which is potentially interesting.
I think the important difference is that you could, theoretically, get rid of headers in girl's high school soccer and still have it be generally recognizable as soccer. Given that the biggest problem with long-term brain damage in football players is looking like it may actually be the start-stop motion inherent to players getting tackled (the brain sloshing around inside the skull, regardless of whether a concussion occurs or not), I'm not sure there's a version of football that doesn't involve hard tackling that doesn't wind up looking like two-hand touch.
RE: ban girl's soccer! - mturn017 - 07-10-2018 07:17 PM
(07-10-2018 06:33 PM)Bogg Wrote:(07-10-2018 03:53 PM)bullet Wrote: http://newsroom.aaos.org/images/9064/media_gallery/ConcussionAbstractAAOS2017.pdf
As far as concussions, girl's soccer has the highest rate of incidence in high schools based on a study covering data from 2005-2015.
No it doesn't. Based on the data you linked, it has the highest proportion of concussions relative to all injuries, not the highest incidence rate - this makes sense, you wouldn't expect to see the same amount of broken hands/wrists/fingers/arms or lacerations on a soccer player as you would a football player. The incidence rate is approaching that of football though, and it's triple the concussion rate of boy's soccer, which suggests sex-specific differences in susceptibility to concussions, which is potentially interesting.
I think the important difference is that you could, theoretically, get rid of headers in girl's high school soccer and still have it be generally recognizable as soccer. Given that the biggest problem with long-term brain damage in football players is looking like it may actually be the start-stop motion inherent to players getting tackled (the brain sloshing around inside the skull, regardless of whether a concussion occurs or not), I'm not sure there's a version of football that doesn't involve hard tackling that doesn't wind up looking like two-hand touch.
Either women are more suscepitable to concussions or they are reported at a higher level. The difference of incidents across the board from before and after the law took affect is alarming to think how much was ignored. It could be that women’s brains are more susceptible than men’s or that there’s still more of a tough it out, I can play mentality with men.
RE: ban girl's soccer! - Renandpat - 07-10-2018 07:43 PM
(07-10-2018 03:53 PM)bullet Wrote: http://newsroom.aaos.org/images/9064/media_gallery/ConcussionAbstractAAOS2017.pdf
As far as concussions, girl's soccer has the highest rate of incidence in high schools based on a study covering data from 2005-2015.
(07-10-2018 04:07 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote: It ain't just concussions. Hell, the teenage daughter of a friend has had two ACL tears, surgeries, and recoveries because of soccer.
In 1995, girls were 4-6 times more likely to tear their ACL in basketball. We haven't banned it.
https://www.si.com/vault/1995/02/13/133286/out-of-joint-womens-basketball-is-making-great-strides-but-it-is-suffering-an-epidemic-of-torn-knee-ligaments-along-the-way
RE: ban girl's soccer! - Bogg - 07-10-2018 08:00 PM
(07-10-2018 07:17 PM)mturn017 Wrote:(07-10-2018 06:33 PM)Bogg Wrote:(07-10-2018 03:53 PM)bullet Wrote: http://newsroom.aaos.org/images/9064/media_gallery/ConcussionAbstractAAOS2017.pdf
As far as concussions, girl's soccer has the highest rate of incidence in high schools based on a study covering data from 2005-2015.
No it doesn't. Based on the data you linked, it has the highest proportion of concussions relative to all injuries, not the highest incidence rate - this makes sense, you wouldn't expect to see the same amount of broken hands/wrists/fingers/arms or lacerations on a soccer player as you would a football player. The incidence rate is approaching that of football though, and it's triple the concussion rate of boy's soccer, which suggests sex-specific differences in susceptibility to concussions, which is potentially interesting.
I think the important difference is that you could, theoretically, get rid of headers in girl's high school soccer and still have it be generally recognizable as soccer. Given that the biggest problem with long-term brain damage in football players is looking like it may actually be the start-stop motion inherent to players getting tackled (the brain sloshing around inside the skull, regardless of whether a concussion occurs or not), I'm not sure there's a version of football that doesn't involve hard tackling that doesn't wind up looking like two-hand touch.
Either women are more suscepitable to concussions or they are reported at a higher level. The difference of incidents across the board from before and after the law took affect is alarming to think how much was ignored. It could be that women’s brains are more susceptible than men’s or that there’s still more of a tough it out, I can play mentality with men.
Yea, it's not clear. Would be really interesting to see a deeper dive into it, though.
RE: ban girl's soccer! - mturn017 - 07-10-2018 08:26 PM
(07-10-2018 08:00 PM)Bogg Wrote:(07-10-2018 07:17 PM)mturn017 Wrote:(07-10-2018 06:33 PM)Bogg Wrote:(07-10-2018 03:53 PM)bullet Wrote: http://newsroom.aaos.org/images/9064/media_gallery/ConcussionAbstractAAOS2017.pdf
As far as concussions, girl's soccer has the highest rate of incidence in high schools based on a study covering data from 2005-2015.
No it doesn't. Based on the data you linked, it has the highest proportion of concussions relative to all injuries, not the highest incidence rate - this makes sense, you wouldn't expect to see the same amount of broken hands/wrists/fingers/arms or lacerations on a soccer player as you would a football player. The incidence rate is approaching that of football though, and it's triple the concussion rate of boy's soccer, which suggests sex-specific differences in susceptibility to concussions, which is potentially interesting.
I think the important difference is that you could, theoretically, get rid of headers in girl's high school soccer and still have it be generally recognizable as soccer. Given that the biggest problem with long-term brain damage in football players is looking like it may actually be the start-stop motion inherent to players getting tackled (the brain sloshing around inside the skull, regardless of whether a concussion occurs or not), I'm not sure there's a version of football that doesn't involve hard tackling that doesn't wind up looking like two-hand touch.
Either women are more suscepitable to concussions or they are reported at a higher level. The difference of incidents across the board from before and after the law took affect is alarming to think how much was ignored. It could be that women’s brains are more susceptible than men’s or that there’s still more of a tough it out, I can play mentality with men.
Yea, it's not clear. Would be really interesting to see a deeper dive into it, though.
I’m sure there will be and hope so. I love sports but want my kids to be safe. Can’t imagine there’s much difference in the number or strength of head injuries between men’s and women’s soccer so it is interesting to see a divergence.
This made me think of a story I read about an inordinate number of women’s soccer players getting some kind of cancer I think and they linked it back tio a field turf they were using that had recycled tires used in it or something. I’ll try to find the story.
Link: A study showed there was no “cluster” of cancer diagnosis amongst athaletes using artificial turf but not full conclusive.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/01/27/health/artificial-turf-cancer-study-profile/index.html
RE: ban girl's soccer! - MWC Tex - 07-10-2018 09:03 PM
(07-10-2018 07:43 PM)Renandpat Wrote:(07-10-2018 03:53 PM)bullet Wrote: http://newsroom.aaos.org/images/9064/media_gallery/ConcussionAbstractAAOS2017.pdf
As far as concussions, girl's soccer has the highest rate of incidence in high schools based on a study covering data from 2005-2015.
(07-10-2018 04:07 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote: It ain't just concussions. Hell, the teenage daughter of a friend has had two ACL tears, surgeries, and recoveries because of soccer.
In 1995, girls were 4-6 times more likely to tear their ACL in basketball. We haven't banned it.
https://www.si.com/vault/1995/02/13/133286/out-of-joint-womens-basketball-is-making-great-strides-but-it-is-suffering-an-epidemic-of-torn-knee-ligaments-along-the-way
Intersting article. Surely there is a lot more data and studies since then.
My sister tore her ACL in basketball also. (Unfortunate, because USC was on the verge giving her a track scholarship before her injury.) I do think how the women's hips and the angle on the knee is a major factor.
Things are too politcal to try to ban some women's sports. But to at least know the risks involved.
Although my daughter didn't make the 8th grade basketball team , in a way I am glad because I would worry about the risk and how that could ruin the sports she is really is good at (volleyball and track).
RE: ban girl's soccer! - JRsec - 07-10-2018 11:18 PM
(07-10-2018 04:21 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote: Ban all sports! No physical activity!
Life, why worry? You aren't getting out of it alive anyway! So why worry about the bumps if you are having fun?
RE: ban girl's soccer! - stever20 - 07-10-2018 11:41 PM
unfortunately I've seen the ACL problem in Girls basketball repeatedly. 2 really come to mind...
Girl I knew in HS- she tore her right ACL right before her Junior season. She rehabbed and got back. Mid senior season she tore her left ACL. I saw her about 5-6 years later and she was having to go back in for more surgery.
then another girl tore 1 of her ACL's like 3 different times. Just so frustrating for her.
I do remember that SI story from above. it'd be interesting to see if the numbers have maintained- or gotten worse or better. It very possibly might be worse now given how many girls are playing sports year round like the boys now..
RE: ban girl's soccer! - Captain Bearcat - 07-11-2018 05:43 PM
I've seen several similar studies. I've linked to them before on this board but won't bother linking them now.
But the gist is that at the college level, female athletes suffer a LOT more concussions than male athletes in the same sport. Women's soccer generally has the highest incidence of concussion of any sport, although in some studies it's tied with football.
At the high school level, girl's sports have lower injury rates than men's. I think this is because in high school, boy's sports are more competitive than girl's sports. But in college, both genders are ultra-competitive so women's injury rates increase substantially more than men's.
RE: ban girl's soccer! - mturn017 - 07-11-2018 09:18 PM
(07-11-2018 05:43 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote: I've seen several similar studies. I've linked to them before on this board but won't bother linking them now.
But the gist is that at the college level, female athletes suffer a LOT more concussions than male athletes in the same sport. Women's soccer generally has the highest incidence of concussion of any sport, although in some studies it's tied with football.
At the high school level, girl's sports have lower injury rates than men's. I think this is because in high school, boy's sports are more competitive than girl's sports. But in college, both genders are ultra-competitive so women's injury rates increase substantially more than men's.
I tend to lean towards it being a reporting issue but more research needs to be done. Could be physiological of course but I think the cultures are more likely to be different. I think head injuries in men’s sports are underreported across the board.
RE: ban girl's soccer! - bullet - 07-11-2018 09:26 PM
(07-10-2018 06:33 PM)Bogg Wrote:(07-10-2018 03:53 PM)bullet Wrote: http://newsroom.aaos.org/images/9064/media_gallery/ConcussionAbstractAAOS2017.pdf
As far as concussions, girl's soccer has the highest rate of incidence in high schools based on a study covering data from 2005-2015.
No it doesn't. Based on the data you linked, it has the highest proportion of concussions relative to all injuries, not the highest incidence rate - this makes sense, you wouldn't expect to see the same amount of broken hands/wrists/fingers/arms or lacerations on a soccer player as you would a football player. The incidence rate is approaching that of football though, and it's triple the concussion rate of boy's soccer, which suggests sex-specific differences in susceptibility to concussions, which is potentially interesting.
I think the important difference is that you could, theoretically, get rid of headers in girl's high school soccer and still have it be generally recognizable as soccer. Given that the biggest problem with long-term brain damage in football players is looking like it may actually be the start-stop motion inherent to players getting tackled (the brain sloshing around inside the skull, regardless of whether a concussion occurs or not), I'm not sure there's a version of football that doesn't involve hard tackling that doesn't wind up looking like two-hand touch.
I skimmed the report and read this:
"...Summary: The incidence of concussions has increased significantly since the enactment
of traumatic brain injury laws, and concussion is now more common in girls soccer than
boys football...."
But reading the whole report, I see you are correct.
But it also says the overall rate is nearly as high:
"...The concussion rate for girls soccer is also increasing rapidly, and is now nearly tied with boys football and 3-fold higher than boys soccer...."
RE: ban girl's soccer! - bullet - 07-11-2018 09:29 PM
(07-10-2018 07:17 PM)mturn017 Wrote:(07-10-2018 06:33 PM)Bogg Wrote:(07-10-2018 03:53 PM)bullet Wrote: http://newsroom.aaos.org/images/9064/media_gallery/ConcussionAbstractAAOS2017.pdf
As far as concussions, girl's soccer has the highest rate of incidence in high schools based on a study covering data from 2005-2015.
No it doesn't. Based on the data you linked, it has the highest proportion of concussions relative to all injuries, not the highest incidence rate - this makes sense, you wouldn't expect to see the same amount of broken hands/wrists/fingers/arms or lacerations on a soccer player as you would a football player. The incidence rate is approaching that of football though, and it's triple the concussion rate of boy's soccer, which suggests sex-specific differences in susceptibility to concussions, which is potentially interesting.
I think the important difference is that you could, theoretically, get rid of headers in girl's high school soccer and still have it be generally recognizable as soccer. Given that the biggest problem with long-term brain damage in football players is looking like it may actually be the start-stop motion inherent to players getting tackled (the brain sloshing around inside the skull, regardless of whether a concussion occurs or not), I'm not sure there's a version of football that doesn't involve hard tackling that doesn't wind up looking like two-hand touch.
Either women are more suscepitable to concussions or they are reported at a higher level. The difference of incidents across the board from before and after the law took affect is alarming to think how much was ignored. It could be that women’s brains are more susceptible than men’s or that there’s still more of a tough it out, I can play mentality with men.
It could also be average conditioning impacting the injury rate. Boys are more likely to play at an early age. It could also be average size.
RE: ban girl's soccer! - bullet - 07-11-2018 09:30 PM
(07-10-2018 08:26 PM)mturn017 Wrote:(07-10-2018 08:00 PM)Bogg Wrote:(07-10-2018 07:17 PM)mturn017 Wrote:(07-10-2018 06:33 PM)Bogg Wrote:(07-10-2018 03:53 PM)bullet Wrote: http://newsroom.aaos.org/images/9064/media_gallery/ConcussionAbstractAAOS2017.pdf
As far as concussions, girl's soccer has the highest rate of incidence in high schools based on a study covering data from 2005-2015.
No it doesn't. Based on the data you linked, it has the highest proportion of concussions relative to all injuries, not the highest incidence rate - this makes sense, you wouldn't expect to see the same amount of broken hands/wrists/fingers/arms or lacerations on a soccer player as you would a football player. The incidence rate is approaching that of football though, and it's triple the concussion rate of boy's soccer, which suggests sex-specific differences in susceptibility to concussions, which is potentially interesting.
I think the important difference is that you could, theoretically, get rid of headers in girl's high school soccer and still have it be generally recognizable as soccer. Given that the biggest problem with long-term brain damage in football players is looking like it may actually be the start-stop motion inherent to players getting tackled (the brain sloshing around inside the skull, regardless of whether a concussion occurs or not), I'm not sure there's a version of football that doesn't involve hard tackling that doesn't wind up looking like two-hand touch.
Either women are more suscepitable to concussions or they are reported at a higher level. The difference of incidents across the board from before and after the law took affect is alarming to think how much was ignored. It could be that women’s brains are more susceptible than men’s or that there’s still more of a tough it out, I can play mentality with men.
Yea, it's not clear. Would be really interesting to see a deeper dive into it, though.
I’m sure there will be and hope so. I love sports but want my kids to be safe. Can’t imagine there’s much difference in the number or strength of head injuries between men’s and women’s soccer so it is interesting to see a divergence.
This made me think of a story I read about an inordinate number of women’s soccer players getting some kind of cancer I think and they linked it back tio a field turf they were using that had recycled tires used in it or something. I’ll try to find the story.
Link: A study showed there was no “cluster” of cancer diagnosis amongst athaletes using artificial turf but not full conclusive.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/01/27/health/artificial-turf-cancer-study-profile/index.html
I seem to recall reading somewhere that many of the concussions in soccer were caused not by headers but by collisions with other players heads going for headers.
RE: ban girl's soccer! - JRsec - 07-11-2018 09:32 PM
(07-11-2018 09:29 PM)bullet Wrote:(07-10-2018 07:17 PM)mturn017 Wrote:(07-10-2018 06:33 PM)Bogg Wrote:(07-10-2018 03:53 PM)bullet Wrote: http://newsroom.aaos.org/images/9064/media_gallery/ConcussionAbstractAAOS2017.pdf
As far as concussions, girl's soccer has the highest rate of incidence in high schools based on a study covering data from 2005-2015.
No it doesn't. Based on the data you linked, it has the highest proportion of concussions relative to all injuries, not the highest incidence rate - this makes sense, you wouldn't expect to see the same amount of broken hands/wrists/fingers/arms or lacerations on a soccer player as you would a football player. The incidence rate is approaching that of football though, and it's triple the concussion rate of boy's soccer, which suggests sex-specific differences in susceptibility to concussions, which is potentially interesting.
I think the important difference is that you could, theoretically, get rid of headers in girl's high school soccer and still have it be generally recognizable as soccer. Given that the biggest problem with long-term brain damage in football players is looking like it may actually be the start-stop motion inherent to players getting tackled (the brain sloshing around inside the skull, regardless of whether a concussion occurs or not), I'm not sure there's a version of football that doesn't involve hard tackling that doesn't wind up looking like two-hand touch.
Either women are more suscepitable to concussions or they are reported at a higher level. The difference of incidents across the board from before and after the law took affect is alarming to think how much was ignored. It could be that women’s brains are more susceptible than men’s or that there’s still more of a tough it out, I can play mentality with men.
It could also be average conditioning impacting the injury rate. Boys are more likely to play at an early age. It could also be average size.
In most species of mammals the bone density of males tends to be greater than that of females. There seems to be conflicting studies on this in humans. But then human studies tend to be politicized. But I'd say there is more going on here than coincidence.
RE: ban girl's soccer! - TOPSTRAIGHT - 07-12-2018 01:12 AM
Helmets, anyone?
-correctly designed for soccer and with the latest advances
RE: ban girl's soccer! - arkstfan - 07-12-2018 08:30 AM
Someone (maybe Bearcat) a bit back posted a link to an article regarding a study that was suggestive of the idea that any running sport, especially involving sudden starts, stops, and turns causes some level of brain injury.
RE: ban girl's soccer! - Stugray2 - 07-12-2018 01:17 PM
ACL tears are from collisions (mine on a basketball court with wide body big man ... side to side for a rebound), and more often bad turf.
Youth soccer is often played on fields with ruts and small holes and bad patches of turf. Also shoes worn are whatever people bring, sometimes the cleats are not right for the turf. I don't know how you fix that.
But, yes, I have noticed girls seem to suffer those injuries more than boys, and their game is if anything lower contact. But then again girls who play sports are often asked to play all sports because there are so many spots to fill and only 1/4th as many play. So the same girls are playing soccer, basketball, volleyball and are over stressing their bodies. Boys tend to specialize as the competition is much more intense for positions.
But we do need to understand more about girls physiology. It could be intrinsic to being human female, as specialization for tens of thousands of years put heavy hunting and running on males but not females, who tended to be gatherers. This shows up in different shoulder construction where girls retain the primate shoulder movement, while boys are specialized and piston form from throwing spears and projectiles in hunting (genetic advantage by specializing -- although elbows still stress easily from the loads shoulders transfer ... in evolution terms male arm development is in a transitional phase, not complete). This difference in stress levels of joints may extend to knees for females. One can only speculate on concussions -- I can't think of a reason, as it has to do with impact loads and the amount of extra space (empty) in the brain skull, and AFAIK there is no difference between the sexes on that.