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Left Behind - WTXOwl - 07-26-2017 09:24 AM
As a fan of one of the Southwest Conference's Forgotten Four (and the only one to have left every team in the SWC and be left by every team in the SWC), I thought it would be interesting to determine which schools Rice had left behind and which schools left Rice behind (for football only). The list is below, but I thought would be worth seeing this information for other schools.
Teams That Left Rice Behind (Conference at the time / Conference school left for / Present Conference):
1916
Southwestern (SWC / Ind. / SCAC(DIII))
1920
Phillips (SWC / Ind. / University Closed)
1919
Oklahoma (SWC / MVIAA / Big XII)
1925
Oklahoma State (SWC / MVIAA / Big XII)
1991
Arkansas (SWC / SEC / SEC)
1996
Baylor (SWC / Big XII / Big XII)
Houston (SWC / C-USA / AAC)
Texas (SWC / Big XII / BIG XII)
Texas A&M (SWC / Big XII / SEC)
Texas Tech (SWC / Big XII / Big XII)
1999
Air Force (WAC / MWC / MWC)
BYU (WAC / MWC / Ind.)
Colorado State (WAC / MWC / MWC)
UNLV (WAC / MWC / MWC)
UNM (WAC / MWC / MWC)
San Deigo State (WAC / MWC / MWC)
Utah (WAC / MWC / Pac 12)
Wyoming (WAC / MWC / MWC)
2001
TCU (WAC / MWC / Big XII)
2013
Central Florida (C-USA / Big East / AAC)
Houston (C-USA / Big East / AAC)
Memphis (C-USA / Big East / AAC)
2014
East Carolina (C-USA / AAC / AAC)
Tulane (C-USA / AAC / AAC)
Tulsa (C-USA / AAC / AAC)
2015
UAB (C-USA / Dropped Football / C-USA)
Teams Rice Left Behind (Conference at the time / Present Conference):
1916 (Rice left SWC; Rejoined for 1918 season)
Arkansas (SWC / SEC)
Baylor (SWC / Big XII)
Oklahoma (SWC / Big XII)
Oklahoma State (SWC / Big XII)
Texas (SWC / Big XII)
Texas A&M (SWC / SEC)
2004 (Rice left the WAC for C-USA)
Boise State (WAC / MWC)
Fresno State (WAC / MWC)
Hawaii (WAC / MWC)
La Tech (WAC / C-USA)
Nevada (WAC / MWC)
San Jose State (WAC / MWC)
RE: Left Behind - Nerdlinger - 07-26-2017 11:33 AM
Here's the list for notorious conference-jumper TCU:
Teams that Left TCU Behind (Conference at the time / Conference school left for / Present conference)
1925
Oklahoma A&M (= Oklahoma State) (SWC / MVIAA / Big 12)
1992
Arkansas (SWC / SEC / SEC)
1996
Baylor (SWC / Big 12 / Big 12)
Houston (SWC / C-USA / American) -- not sure if this counts as leaving TCU behind (C-USA and WAC roughly on par at the time?)
Texas (SWC / Big 12 / Big 12)
Texas A&M (SWC / Big 12 / SEC)
Texas Tech (SWC / Big 12 / Big 12)
1999
Air Force (WAC / MWC / MWC)
BYU (WAC / MWC / FBS Ind)
Colorado State (WAC / MWC / MWC)
New Mexico (WAC / MWC / MWC)
San Diego State (WAC / MWC / MWC)
UNLV (WAC / MWC / MWC)
Utah (WAC / MWC / Pac-12)
Wyoming (WAC / MWC / MWC)
2011
BYU (MWC / FBS Ind / FBS Ind) -- not sure if this counts as leaving TCU behind (MWC to FBS Ind is lateral move?)
Utah (MWC / Pac-12 / Pac-12)
Teams TCU Left Behind (Conference at the time / Present conference)
2001 (TCU left WAC for C-USA)
Fresno State (WAC / MWC)
Hawaii (WAC / MWC)
Nevada (WAC / MWC)
Rice (WAC / C-USA)
San Jose State (WAC / MWC)
SMU (WAC / American)
Tulsa (WAC / American)
UTEP (WAC / C-USA)
2005 (TCU left C-USA for MWC)
East Carolina (C-USA / American)
Houston (C-USA / American)
Memphis (C-USA / American)
Southern Miss (C-USA / C-USA)
Tulane (C-USA / American)
UAB (C-USA / C-USA)
2012 (TCU left MWC for Big 12)
Air Force (MWC / MWC)
Boise State (MWC / MWC)
Colorado State (MWC / MWC)
New Mexico (MWC / MWC)
San Diego State (MWC / MWC)
UNLV (MWC / MWC)
Wyoming (MWC / MWC)
Teams that left TCU behind twice: BYU(?), Utah
Teams that left TCU behind and were later left behind by TCU: Air Force, Colorado State, Houston(?), New Mexico, San Diego State, UNLV, Wyoming
RE: Left Behind - nzmorange - 07-26-2017 11:34 AM
(07-26-2017 09:24 AM)WTXOwl Wrote: As a fan of one of the Southwest Conference's Forgotten Four (and the only one to have left every team in the SWC and be left by every team in the SWC), I thought it would be interesting to determine which schools Rice had left behind and which schools left Rice behind (for football only). The list is below, but I thought would be worth seeing this information for other schools.
Teams That Left Rice Behind (Conference at the time / Conference school left for / Present Conference):
1916
Southwestern (SWC / Ind. / SCAC(DIII))
1920
Phillips (SWC / Ind. / University Closed)
1919
Oklahoma (SWC / MVIAA / Big XII)
1925
Oklahoma State (SWC / MVIAA / Big XII)
1994
Arkansas (SWC / SEC / SEC)
1996
Baylor (SWC / Big XII / Big XII)
Houston (SWC / C-USA / AAC)
Texas (SWC / Big XII / BIG XII)
Texas A&M (SWC / Big XII / SEC)
Texas Tech (SWC / Big XII / Big XII)
1999
Air Force (WAC / MWC / MWC)
BYU (WAC / MWC / Ind.)
Colorado State (WAC / MWC / MWC)
UNLV (WAC / MWC / MWC)
UNM (WAC / MWC / MWC)
San Deigo State (WAC / MWC / MWC)
Utah (WAC / MWC / Pac 12)
Wyoming (WAC / MWC / MWC)
2001
TCU (WAC / MWC / Big XII)
2013
Central Florida (C-USA / Big East / AAC)
Houston (C-USA / Big East / AAC)
Memphis (C-USA / Big East / AAC)
2014
East Carolina (C-USA / AAC / AAC)
Tulane (C-USA / AAC / AAC)
Tulsa (C-USA / AAC / AAC)
2015
UAB (C-USA / Dropped Football / C-USA)
Teams Rice Left Behind (Conference at the time / Present Conference):
1916 (Rice left SWC; Rejoined for 1918 season)
Arkansas (SWC / SEC)
Baylor (SWC / Big XII)
Oklahoma (SWC / Big XII)
Oklahoma State (SWC / Big XII)
Texas (SWC / Big XII)
Texas A&M (SWC / SEC)
2004 (Rice left the WAC for C-USA)
Boise State (WAC / MWC)
Fresno State (WAC / MWC)
Hawaii (WAC / MWC)
La Tech (WAC / C-USA)
Nevada (WAC / MWC)
San Jose State (WAC / MWC)
I wonder how good Rice would be if it was truly committed to winning (like Miami starting in 1980)
RE: Left Behind - Attackcoog - 07-26-2017 11:40 AM
I wonder what would have happened if the remaining 4 SWC schools would have rebuilt the SWC. I think all 4 would have been in a more stable situation in the period after 1996.
RE: Left Behind - Nerdlinger - 07-26-2017 11:44 AM
(07-26-2017 11:40 AM)Attackcoog Wrote: I wonder what would have happened if the remaining 4 SWC schools would have rebuilt the SWC. I think all 4 would have been in a more stable situation in the period after 1996.
That might have saved WAC football in turn by preventing the eastward expansion that led to the defection of the MWC schools.
RE: Left Behind - MplsBison - 07-26-2017 11:45 AM
Minnesota was a founder of the Big Ten in 1896, and has never left since. The only school to leave the Big Ten since then is the U of Chicago, which is DIII now.
That's it.
RE: Left Behind - MplsBison - 07-26-2017 11:48 AM
(07-26-2017 09:24 AM)WTXOwl Wrote: As a fan of one of the Southwest Conference's Forgotten Four (and the only one to have left every team in the SWC and be left by every team in the SWC), I thought it would be interesting to determine which schools Rice had left behind and which schools left Rice behind (for football only). The list is below, but I thought would be worth seeing this information for other schools.
Teams That Left Rice Behind (Conference at the time / Conference school left for / Present Conference):
1916
Southwestern (SWC / Ind. / SCAC(DIII))
1920
Phillips (SWC / Ind. / University Closed)
1919
Oklahoma (SWC / MVIAA / Big XII)
1925
Oklahoma State (SWC / MVIAA / Big XII)
1994
Arkansas (SWC / SEC / SEC)
1996
Baylor (SWC / Big XII / Big XII)
Houston (SWC / C-USA / AAC)
Texas (SWC / Big XII / BIG XII)
Texas A&M (SWC / Big XII / SEC)
Texas Tech (SWC / Big XII / Big XII)
1999
Air Force (WAC / MWC / MWC)
BYU (WAC / MWC / Ind.)
Colorado State (WAC / MWC / MWC)
UNLV (WAC / MWC / MWC)
UNM (WAC / MWC / MWC)
San Deigo State (WAC / MWC / MWC)
Utah (WAC / MWC / Pac 12)
Wyoming (WAC / MWC / MWC)
2001
TCU (WAC / MWC / Big XII)
2013
Central Florida (C-USA / Big East / AAC)
Houston (C-USA / Big East / AAC)
Memphis (C-USA / Big East / AAC)
2014
East Carolina (C-USA / AAC / AAC)
Tulane (C-USA / AAC / AAC)
Tulsa (C-USA / AAC / AAC)
2015
UAB (C-USA / Dropped Football / C-USA)
Ignoring UAB, and ignoring the older stuff, you have basically three waves:
- the death of the SWC
- the WAC/MWC split
- the great CUSA to Big East/American migration
(07-26-2017 11:40 AM)Attackcoog Wrote: I wonder what would have happened if the remaining 4 SWC schools would have rebuilt the SWC. I think all 4 would have been in a more stable situation in the period after 1996.
(07-26-2017 11:44 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote: That might have saved WAC football in turn by preventing the eastward expansion that led to the defection of the MWC schools.
Very interesting question and answer!
You might essentially have the SWC conference as the Texas schools currently in the CUSA and Sun Belt, with the current MWC under the historical WAC banner, and perhaps the current WAC teams under the Great West banner.
RE: Left Behind - dbackjon - 07-26-2017 11:53 AM
(07-26-2017 11:45 AM)MplsBison Wrote: Minnesota was a founder of the Big Ten in 1896, and has never left since. The only school to leave the Big Ten since then is the U of Chicago, which is DIII now.
That's it.
Same with Illinois
RE: Left Behind - GO Coogs GO!!! - 07-26-2017 12:13 PM
(07-26-2017 11:48 AM)MplsBison Wrote:(07-26-2017 11:40 AM)Attackcoog Wrote: I wonder what would have happened if the remaining 4 SWC schools would have rebuilt the SWC. I think all 4 would have been in a more stable situation in the period after 1996.
(07-26-2017 11:44 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote: That might have saved WAC football in turn by preventing the eastward expansion that led to the defection of the MWC schools.
Very interest question and answer!
You might essentially have a conference of the Texas schools currently in the CUSA and Sun Belt, with the current MWC under the historical WAC banner, and perhaps the current WAC teams under the Great West banner.
I think the "SWC" would have expanded back to 10 teams (adding 6 schools) pulling in a majority of what ended up as CUSA 1.0.
1. Louisville
2. Cincinnati
3. Memphis
4. Tulane
5. Tulsa
True a bit of a disadvantage with three small privates heading into an era of CFB that is dominated by the all mighty Cable TV deal, but it was all hypothetical at that point (TV dictating everything in CFB like it does today). It is however a conference that (if their historical trends stayed the same) would be a pretty entertaining conference in at least football and men's basketball.
A round robin football of Houston, TCU, Louisville, and Cincinnati would draw eyeballs. Of course when they developed into what they are now you can certainly add Tulsa and Memphis to that list.
Basketball featuring Louisville, Cincinnati, Houston (<5 years removed from NCAA and NIT bids), Tulsa, Memphis, and at the time Tulane (recent NCAA and NIT bids) would have been solid as well.
Which leads to the 2nd question, the effect or lack there of on the WAC. Ill let someone with more knowledge address that one but it is an interesting what if scenario.
RE: Left Behind - MplsBison - 07-26-2017 12:24 PM
What Patterson was able to do with TCU football in the Mountain West ... well he better have a statue, is all I'm saying.
Barry Alvarez-esque.
RE: Left Behind - TodgeRodge - 07-26-2017 12:29 PM
there was nothing to rebuild the SWC around back when it broke up
there was really no incentive to draw teams away from the conferences they were in to another conference especially one out of their region
the CUSA formed because there were teams in other conferences looking to break away from their dead weight, but they were not interested in a conference with a dying/dead name and a name that reflected a region they were not located in
there was not going to be any additional money for a conference made up of the same teams that were in the CUSA with the only exception being it was named the SWC
and the teams that did not go to the CUSA decided they had a better situation in the WAC Vs trying to start new with a dying/dead name or starting in the CUSA
RE: Left Behind - tcufrog86 - 07-26-2017 01:05 PM
(07-26-2017 12:24 PM)MplsBison Wrote: What Patterson was able to do with TCU football in the Mountain West ... well he better have a statue, is all I'm saying.
Barry Alvarez-esque.
He already does, in 2016 a TCU donor commissioned statues of Gary Patterson, Dutch Meyer (TCUs coach from 1934 - 1952), and Heisman Winner Davey O'Brien
RE: Left Behind - MplsBison - 07-26-2017 01:08 PM
Glad to hear it.
Don't know what TCU's current staff looks like ... understand of course that coaches who have been with TCU and/or Patterson for a long time have to be held .... but would hope that Patterson could find a place for Tracy Claeys on his staff!
RE: Left Behind - GO Coogs GO!!! - 07-26-2017 01:55 PM
(07-26-2017 12:29 PM)TodgeRodge Wrote: there was nothing to rebuild the SWC around back when it broke up
there was really no incentive to draw teams away from the conferences they were in to another conference especially one out of their region
the CUSA formed because there were teams in other conferences looking to break away from their dead weight, but they were not interested in a conference with a dying/dead name and a name that reflected a region they were not located in
there was not going to be any additional money for a conference made up of the same teams that were in the CUSA with the only exception being it was named the SWC
and the teams that did not go to the CUSA decided they had a better situation in the WAC Vs trying to start new with a dying/dead name or starting in the CUSA
Says the proven UH hater.
Every one of those 6 schools were looking for new opportunities in 1995.
Louisville having a recent and storied history with UH (not to mention being independent in 1995) would have come into the fold. Its not a big stretch to see a team in Louisville in what would have been a Texas heavy conference.
Cincinnati was also independent in 1995 so its an easy transition into any conference.
Memphis also an independent in 1995 looking for a home.
Tulane.... guess what an independent in 1995 as well.
Tulsa? you guessed it an independent......
The problem is you're looking at this from a 2017 POV and not from the time that these moves would have taken place.
The effects of NCAA vs. BOR OU (the decentralization of CFB TV deals) were hypothetical in 1995 and you can't apply the world we live in today to the early 90's.
At that time Louisville and TCU didn't and wouldn't get a sniff of a P5 conference. TCU was literally left behind.
While a reconstituted SWC would have lost a significant amount of cache as damaged as the corpse of the SWC was it would have provided a better landing spot than the made from scratch CUSA that every one of those teams went to.
One that these "upstarts" (at the time and from a power league perspective) would have cashed in on the name recognition (like Louisville and Cincinnati did with the dying but not dead Big East) to build their brand.
A conference "spread" from DFW to Cincinnati... Houston to Louisville... Memphis to Tulsa isn't a beast that couldn't be managed. It's actually pretty tight especially compared to CUSA 1.0 that was spread from Chicago to Tampa and from Charlotte to Houston.
RE: Left Behind - tcufrog86 - 07-26-2017 02:26 PM
(07-26-2017 01:08 PM)MplsBison Wrote: Glad to hear it.
Don't know what TCU's current staff looks like ... understand of course that coaches who have been with TCU and/or Patterson for a long time have to be held .... but would hope that Patterson could find a place for Tracy Claeys on his staff!
Claeys has spent most of his recent career as a DC...TCUs current DC Chad Glasgow was on Patterson's original staff in 2000 he has been with Patterson for 16 of his 17 years at TCU with one season spent as Texas Tech's Defensive Coordinator. Glasgow has spent most of his TCU career coaching the secondary as Dick Bumpus was TCUs DC for most of Patterson's time at TCU.
Other logical fit for Claeys would be DL. TCU has two coaching the DL. Dan Sharp is entering his 26th season on TCUs staff and Zarnell Fitch his 4th but Fitch played for Patterson at TCU and is important on the recruiting front.
RE: Left Behind - MplsBison - 07-26-2017 02:39 PM
Fair enough. Just really want Tracy to land on his feet somewhere. He deserves it.
Maybe if the guy at KU flops this season, Tracy will get the call down there, maybe hire Jerry as his OC. That would be something!
RE: Left Behind - TodgeRodge - 07-26-2017 03:14 PM
(07-26-2017 01:55 PM)GO Coogs GO!!! Wrote:(07-26-2017 12:29 PM)TodgeRodge Wrote: there was nothing to rebuild the SWC around back when it broke up
there was really no incentive to draw teams away from the conferences they were in to another conference especially one out of their region
the CUSA formed because there were teams in other conferences looking to break away from their dead weight, but they were not interested in a conference with a dying/dead name and a name that reflected a region they were not located in
there was not going to be any additional money for a conference made up of the same teams that were in the CUSA with the only exception being it was named the SWC
and the teams that did not go to the CUSA decided they had a better situation in the WAC Vs trying to start new with a dying/dead name or starting in the CUSA
Says the proven UH hater.
Every one of those 6 schools were looking for new opportunities in 1995.
Louisville having a recent and storied history with UH (not to mention being independent in 1995) would have come into the fold. Its not a big stretch to see a team in Louisville in what would have been a Texas heavy conference.
Cincinnati was also independent in 1995 so its an easy transition into any conference.
Memphis also an independent in 1995 looking for a home.
Tulane.... guess what an independent in 1995 as well.
Tulsa? you guessed it an independent......
The problem is you're looking at this from a 2017 POV and not from the time that these moves would have taken place.
The effects of NCAA vs. BOR OU (the decentralization of CFB TV deals) were hypothetical in 1995 and you can't apply the world we live in today to the early 90's.
At that time Louisville and TCU didn't and wouldn't get a sniff of a P5 conference. TCU was literally left behind.
While a reconstituted SWC would have lost a significant amount of cache as damaged as the corpse of the SWC was it would have provided a better landing spot than the made from scratch CUSA that every one of those teams went to.
One that these "upstarts" (at the time and from a power league perspective) would have cashed in on the name recognition (like Louisville and Cincinnati did with the dying but not dead Big East) to build their brand.
A conference "spread" from DFW to Cincinnati... Houston to Louisville... Memphis to Tulsa isn't a beast that couldn't be managed. It's actually pretty tight especially compared to CUSA 1.0 that was spread from Chicago to Tampa and from Charlotte to Houston.
^^^^ says a noted person that lacks reality
the CUSA was formed in 1995 and Louisville, Memphis, Cincy and Tulane were in the CUSA
it was not until 1996 that dem coogs doh, TCU, SMU and Rice became available
and I do not need to judge what happened based on a 2017 perspective (as you are actually doing not me)
I can judge based on what ACTUALLY happened
dem coogs doh totally sucked and had sucked for a LONG time and had 12 wins over the prior 5 seasons to prove it and only three winning seasons in the last dozen or so
SMU was still totally sucking from the death penalty
TCU had not had a winning season on forever and Rice looked like they were totally giving up (just like dem coogs doh)
so as I correctly stated there was NOTHING attractive about any other team or group of teams leaving their current situation to join into a conference with a dying/dead name and 4 programs that were content to ride the pine and contribute NOTHING other than easy wins for other members to a conference
it does not matter what happened prior to 1995 or what all these teams that you think would have joined the SWC were doing because the SWC was not going to add those teams
and in 1995 all these teams you think were dying to join the SWC had already formed a new conference and liked that conference better than leaving it and trying to join 4 programs that were in "we barely exist" mode in a conference with the stench of death
so as I stated none of the teams you listed were going to leave the conference they WERE ALREADY IN to join the likes of a terrible dem coogs doh, a terrible SMU, a terrible TCU and a terrible Rice in a conference with the label DEAD on it
and I know that to be a fact because I know that did not happen
RE: Left Behind - goofus - 07-26-2017 03:23 PM
(07-26-2017 11:45 AM)MplsBison Wrote: Minnesota was a founder of the Big Ten in 1896, and has never left since. The only school to leave the Big Ten since then is the U of Chicago, which is DIII now.
That's it.
Except for that team that temporarily left the Big Ten and then came back later.
RE: Left Behind - The Cutter of Bish - 07-26-2017 03:36 PM
(07-26-2017 11:40 AM)Attackcoog Wrote: I wonder what would have happened if the remaining 4 SWC schools would have rebuilt the SWC. I think all 4 would have been in a more stable situation in the period after 1996.
Back at that time, the geography thing and relatively low media revenue pipeline wouldn't have pushed the conference that dramatically past the Big XII footprint, I'd wager.
I don't know how or if the WAC would have split, especially if a major status was still attached to it. And, while we know about those mid-southern independents floating out there (Memphis/MSU in particular), I was never convinced they were even considered back then. And Louisville, at that time, saw itself as an eastern school, thus its push for the Big East. I doubt they would have been interested. And, maybe...Cincy wouldn't have been even considered.
The "low hanging fruit" at that time would probably be Tulane. That gets you to five and out of Texas. What happens from there, who knows.
UNLV?
RE: Left Behind - DavidSt - 07-26-2017 03:44 PM
(07-26-2017 11:44 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:(07-26-2017 11:40 AM)Attackcoog Wrote: I wonder what would have happened if the remaining 4 SWC schools would have rebuilt the SWC. I think all 4 would have been in a more stable situation in the period after 1996.
That might have saved WAC football in turn by preventing the eastward expansion that led to the defection of the MWC schools.
Rice
SMU
TCU
Houston
Which schools that would move up or kept their football or stay in D1?
West Texas A&M
New Mexico State
Southwestern
Trinity, TX
Hardin-Simmons
Lamar
Texas State
Abilene Christian (Yo-Yo school. Left the Southland Conference in the 1970s and then rejoined them recently.)
Missouri State
Tulsa
Sam Houston State
SFA
Wichita State
All those schools could be candidates for the SWC. Throw in UTA, North Texas and UTRGV for good measure as well. The three D3 schools may still have dropped down to D3. UTEP may still go somewhere else that have nothing to do with New Mexico State.
I guess several schools regretted dropping football and Division when the SWC went bust, and they might have found a better home for all of their sports.