(04-13-2017 09:01 AM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  This is not likely to happen but what if a few other states do pass similar "bathroom" laws. They would also become off limits to ncaa events and presumably, conference events too. Kansas, Texas and whatever other states that are contemplating these sorts of laws would have to join with each other and NC to organize a new semi-national athletic association. Weird.

(04-13-2017 09:23 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(04-13-2017 09:01 AM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  This is not likely to happen but what if a few other states do pass similar "bathroom" laws. They would also become off limits to ncaa events and presumably, conference events too. Kansas, Texas and whatever other states that are contemplating these sorts of laws would have to join with each other and NC to organize a new semi-national athletic association. Weird.

Texas has been working on one of these bills. I'm not sure why some Houston posters on here are so confident it won't pass. I suspect it will. Oh the horror! No Texhoma PAC 16 for Larry Scott now!

(04-13-2017 08:47 AM)OwlFamily Wrote:  Dear ACC,

FAU and FIU stand ready to bring more Florida teams to your conference should the Carolina's leave so that the UM and FSU will have easy in state games to help increase the exposure of the conference. Please call at your earliest convenience.

Sincerly

FAU and FIU

P.S. I can dream right?

(04-13-2017 08:55 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  I want this to happen so badly! North Carilina and NC ST leaving the ACC would be the funniest thing to happen since the last ACC raid of the Big Least. My bad, the first ACC Big least raid. There's been 3: VD, Da U, BC. Then sPitt, Cuse. Then ND, Ville. Great moments in sports. I mean politics. I mean business. Right, sports.

(04-13-2017 09:44 AM)murrdcu Wrote:  

(04-13-2017 09:23 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(04-13-2017 09:01 AM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  This is not likely to happen but what if a few other states do pass similar "bathroom" laws. They would also become off limits to ncaa events and presumably, conference events too. Kansas, Texas and whatever other states that are contemplating these sorts of laws would have to join with each other and NC to organize a new semi-national athletic association. Weird.

Texas has been working on one of these bills. I'm not sure why some Houston posters on here are so confident it won't pass. I suspect it will. Oh the horror! No Texhoma PAC 16 for Larry Scott now!

Well, Houston just had an openly lesbian major. Texas is a conservative state, but there is some strong liberal support too.

(04-13-2017 09:01 AM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  This is not likely to happen but what if a few other states do pass similar "bathroom" laws. They would also become off limits to ncaa events and presumably, conference events too. Kansas, Texas and whatever other states that are contemplating these sorts of laws would have to join with each other and NC to organize a new semi-national athletic association. Weird.

(04-13-2017 10:27 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  While other states are considering these laws, it's the last stand of backward bigots in a world that is changing every moment.

(04-13-2017 10:32 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(04-13-2017 10:27 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  While other states are considering these laws, it's the last stand of backward bigots in a world that is changing every moment.

Is it really the last stand, though??

Here's the damned problem: non-bigots live too close together. Basically, because 15 bigots live off in the middle of nowhere, they get to elect a bigot representative who gets the same vote in the state senate as a rep for a million non-bigots.

Combine that with gerrymandered districts, and you have a bunch of states that vote around 50-50 for governor, but whose state legislatures are between 60-40 and 70-30 skewed.


This won't change until the people take control and end this farce/fraud. Pitchforks in hand.

VOTES are the only thing that matters, not land area!

(04-13-2017 10:45 AM)bluesox Wrote:  I don't see where the line gets drawn
...
why isn't it bigoted to be against that?

(04-13-2017 10:57 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Maybe it's my naivete, but I do think it's the last stand on at least the LGBT rights issue. The societal attitudes in the past 10 years (and even just the past 5 years) is one of the most dramatic changes on a social issue of anything in modern history (really only comparable to the sea change in views on racial segregation in the 1960 to 1965 period). The pro-choice/pro-life split on abortion, for example, has remained virtually unchanged since the mid-1970s. In contrast, support for marriage equality was non-existent in the 1990s and was still a small minority in 2005 (with even California passing a proposition against gay marriage in 2008), but then rapidly became the majority position within the decade and it continues grow swiftly. Part of this is simply that support for LGBT rights is one of the few issues that is *directly* correlated with age. Believe it or not, this is actually very rare among political issues. Using abortion again as an example, there is no statistically significant difference between pro-choice/pro-life support based on age. In contrast, the younger you are, the likelihood that you support LGBT rights goes up dramatically. Essentially, the anti-LGBT people are eventually going to either retire or die off.

Note that we're seeing this debate in North Carolina, which actually rapidly went from a solid red state to a purple state during the past 15 years (essentially a few years behind the political trajectory of Virginia). It's interesting to see the "last stand" occur in place like North Carolina instead of a much more conservative state like Mississippi. It's similar to Arizona's hard core approach to immigration over the past decade despite being much less of a socially conservative state compared to the Deep South or even some of its Interior West counterparts, where the old guard that had been in power for so long has essentially been scrambling to pass every wacky law that they can since they know it's going to be completely different sooner rather than later. The fact that North Carolina legislators even felt the need to pass a bill like HB2 in the first place was actually an indicator that the state's political composition is moving completely away from them and the remnants of the old Bible Belt guard wanted the legislative equivalent of Custer's last stand.

(04-13-2017 10:27 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  While other states are considering these laws, it's the last stand of backward bigots in a world that is changing every moment. They continue to deny how the entire world has entirely changed regarding LGBT rights within the last 5 to 10 years... and it's never changing back. It's similar to racial segregation, where it went from being reluctantly tolerated outside of the South in 1960 to how they were universally rejected everywhere by 1965, yet a group of hardcore bigots continued to deny progress for several years (e.g. George Wallace's presidential runs).

If a manager in our company decided to apply a rule like HB2 in one of our offices, he/she would be fired for discrimination. Our clients (many of which are larger than we are... and we're one of the 50 largest companies in the world) would also EXPECT us to do that, as well. They do not want to work with discriminatory organizations. Once again, these aren't left wing organizations that we're talking about here (and some are actually well-known targets of liberals). These are places that want the best and brightest educated talent... and the best and brightest educated talent today UNIVERSALLY rejects discrimination against the LGBT community.

And yes, I will continue to use the word bigot. If that bothers people, then so be it. The world is finally waking up that such bigotry has been in place for far too long and it has no place in society. I have such a visceral reaction to these types of bills and stories because sports (as much as I love them) are trivial diversions compared to this type of bigotry. If it's not me calling out such bigotry, then it will be those much more important in people's lives, such as their children, grandchildren, and essentially every educated person under the age of 30. Places like the North Carolina legislature can have their last stands on this issue, but from a general societal perspective, it's as settled of an issue as racial segregation was by 1965.

(04-13-2017 10:57 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(04-13-2017 10:32 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(04-13-2017 10:27 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  While other states are considering these laws, it's the last stand of backward bigots in a world that is changing every moment.

Is it really the last stand, though??

Here's the damned problem: non-bigots live too close together. Basically, because 15 bigots live off in the middle of nowhere, they get to elect a bigot representative who gets the same vote in the state senate as a rep for a million non-bigots.

Combine that with gerrymandered districts, and you have a bunch of states that vote around 50-50 for governor, but whose state legislatures are between 60-40 and 70-30 skewed.


This won't change until the people take control and end this farce/fraud. Pitchforks in hand.

VOTES are the only thing that matters, not land area!

Maybe it's my naivete, but I do think it's the last stand on at least the LGBT rights issue. The societal attitudes in the past 10 years (and even just the past 5 years) is one of the most dramatic changes on a social issue of anything in modern history (really only comparable to the sea change in views on racial segregation in the 1960 to 1965 period). The pro-choice/pro-life split on abortion, for example, has remained virtually unchanged since the mid-1970s. In contrast, support for marriage equality was non-existent in the 1990s and was still a small minority in 2005 (with even California passing a proposition against gay marriage in 2008), but then rapidly became the majority position within the decade and it continues grow swiftly. Part of this is simply that support for LGBT rights is one of the few issues that is *directly* correlated with age. Believe it or not, this is actually very rare among political issues. Using abortion again as an example, there is no statistically significant difference between pro-choice/pro-life support based on age. In contrast, the younger you are, the likelihood that you support LGBT rights goes up dramatically. Essentially, the anti-LGBT people are eventually going to either retire or die off.

Note that we're seeing this debate in North Carolina, which actually rapidly went from a solid red state to a purple state during the past 15 years (essentially a few years behind the political trajectory of Virginia). It's interesting to see the "last stand" occur in place like North Carolina instead of a much more conservative state like Mississippi. It's similar to Arizona's hard core approach to immigration over the past decade despite being much less of a socially conservative state compared to the Deep South or even some of its Interior West counterparts, where the old guard that had been in power for so long has essentially been scrambling to pass every wacky law that they can since they know it's going to be completely different sooner rather than later. The fact that North Carolina legislators even felt the need to pass a bill like HB2 in the first place was actually an indicator that the state's political composition is moving completely away from them and the remnants of the old Bible Belt guard wanted the legislative equivalent of Custer's last stand.

(04-13-2017 10:27 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(04-13-2017 09:01 AM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  This is not likely to happen but what if a few other states do pass similar "bathroom" laws. They would also become off limits to ncaa events and presumably, conference events too. Kansas, Texas and whatever other states that are contemplating these sorts of laws would have to join with each other and NC to organize a new semi-national athletic association. Weird.

While other states are considering these laws, it's the last stand of backward bigots in a world that is changing every moment. They continue to deny how the entire world has entirely changed regarding LGBT rights within the last 5 to 10 years... and it's never changing back. It's similar to racial segregation, where it went from being reluctantly tolerated outside of the South in 1960 to how they were universally rejected everywhere by 1965, yet a group of hardcore bigots continued to deny progress for several years (e.g. George Wallace's presidential runs).

If a manager in our company decided to apply a rule like HB2 in one of our offices, he/she would be fired for discrimination. Our clients (many of which are larger than we are... and we're one of the 50 largest companies in the world) would also EXPECT us to do that, as well. They do not want to work with discriminatory organizations. Once again, these aren't left wing organizations that we're talking about here (and some are actually well-known targets of liberals). These are places that want the best and brightest educated talent... and the best and brightest educated talent today UNIVERSALLY rejects discrimination against the LGBT community.

And yes, I will continue to use the word bigot. If that bothers people, then so be it. The world is finally waking up that such bigotry has been in place for far too long and it has no place in society. I have such a visceral reaction to these types of bills and stories because sports (as much as I love them) are trivial diversions compared to this type of bigotry. If it's not me calling out such bigotry, then it will be those much more important in people's lives, such as their children, grandchildren, and essentially every educated person under the age of 30. Places like the North Carolina legislature can have their last stands on this issue, but from a general societal perspective, it's as settled of an issue as racial segregation was by 1965.

(04-13-2017 10:32 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(04-13-2017 10:27 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  While other states are considering these laws, it's the last stand of backward bigots in a world that is changing every moment.

Is it really the last stand, though??

Here's the damned problem: non-bigots live too close together. Basically, because 15 bigots live off in the middle of nowhere, they get to elect a bigot representative who gets the same vote in the state senate as a rep for a million non-bigots.

Combine that with gerrymandered districts, and you have a bunch of states that vote around 50-50 for governor, but whose state legislatures are between 60-40 and 70-30 skewed.


This won't change until the people take control and end this farce/fraud. Pitchforks in hand.

VOTES are the only thing that matters, not land area!

(04-13-2017 10:45 AM)bluesox Wrote:  If you label somebody a bigot because they disagree with an issue, I don't see where the line gets drawn. It's a good proproganda tool though. I will go back plural marriage, why isn't it bigoted to be against that?

(04-13-2017 11:08 AM)JRsec Wrote:  it comes from the left as when it comes from the right.

(04-13-2017 11:08 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(04-13-2017 10:27 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(04-13-2017 09:01 AM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  This is not likely to happen but what if a few other states do pass similar "bathroom" laws. They would also become off limits to ncaa events and presumably, conference events too. Kansas, Texas and whatever other states that are contemplating these sorts of laws would have to join with each other and NC to organize a new semi-national athletic association. Weird.

While other states are considering these laws, it's the last stand of backward bigots in a world that is changing every moment. They continue to deny how the entire world has entirely changed regarding LGBT rights within the last 5 to 10 years... and it's never changing back. It's similar to racial segregation, where it went from being reluctantly tolerated outside of the South in 1960 to how they were universally rejected everywhere by 1965, yet a group of hardcore bigots continued to deny progress for several years (e.g. George Wallace's presidential runs).

If a manager in our company decided to apply a rule like HB2 in one of our offices, he/she would be fired for discrimination. Our clients (many of which are larger than we are... and we're one of the 50 largest companies in the world) would also EXPECT us to do that, as well. They do not want to work with discriminatory organizations. Once again, these aren't left wing organizations that we're talking about here (and some are actually well-known targets of liberals). These are places that want the best and brightest educated talent... and the best and brightest educated talent today UNIVERSALLY rejects discrimination against the LGBT community.

And yes, I will continue to use the word bigot. If that bothers people, then so be it. The world is finally waking up that such bigotry has been in place for far too long and it has no place in society. I have such a visceral reaction to these types of bills and stories because sports (as much as I love them) are trivial diversions compared to this type of bigotry. If it's not me calling out such bigotry, then it will be those much more important in people's lives, such as their children, grandchildren, and essentially every educated person under the age of 30. Places like the North Carolina legislature can have their last stands on this issue, but from a general societal perspective, it's as settled of an issue as racial segregation was by 1965.

1. Wallace wasn't a bigot. Wallace was an opportunist and demagogue who was elected at the end of his career with the African American vote.

2. Enforcement of laws of equal access is a viable position.

3. Forcing a vision of morality on a free society is not. At the very point people are not free to shape their lives and associations by their personal understanding freedom dies. If they abide by the laws there should be no crisis. If they don't then they break the law. But, the forcing of associations crosses the line of what any free government can impose and at that point you become other (fascist comes to mind).

4. Note Bison's response of forcing the law with pitchforks. Note your own implication that anyone who disagrees with you is somehow uneducated. The greatest ally in the defeat of bigotry is the loss of fear of the object of your bigotry. Forcing the fearful to do anything only reinforces their world view. Going to school with, working with, living in neighborhoods with other kinds of people are ways in which through daily discovery you find that others are not so different from yourself. But labeling, and trying to intimidate people into accepting a position only brings about an equally willful defiance.

5. What I take exception to here is your attitude that shouting your position loudly enough is going to produce the effect you desire. It will not. Displaying your tolerance will beget tolerance, your patience will beget patience, and in the case of bigotry familiarity does not breed contempt, but rather understanding. My objection here is not toward the goals you set forth but the manner in which you seek to reach them. It is boorish, counterproductive, and almost as ignorant as the other position. Why ignorant? Because allowing a passion to overcome reason and compassion is just as destructive as bigotry.

Now young man with promise, put that in your pouch and smoke it over from time to time and you and your children might be able to avoid unnecessary violence and angst. Faith in the goodness that can be reached in others always produces longer lasting and better long term results than vilifying them. Dr. King knew this and practiced it even at the cost of his life, but the resultant shame and horror at the results of extremists turned the South against a century old evil. In the end it accomplished more than 4 years of civil war.

The tactics that you and others have employed in your argumentation labels and vilifies. Brother that is right out of Joseph Goebbels play book. I then read Bison's post and all I image are the brown shirts coming in the night for those the state labels as offenders. Remember it is just as evil when it comes from the left as when it comes from the right. If in your pursuit of what you believe to be justice you become what you abhor, at least in practice, was your methodology effective and worth it, or destructive of your ultimate aims and the catalyst for the loss of your soul?

I'm tired of hearing a nation that should be in constant debate as to what is right four our society taking polarized positions where all conversation ceases and battle lines are drawn. It is only a recipe for disaster.