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RE: The Decline of VCU Basketball - Gilesfan - 04-12-2017 01:31 PM
I don't really see how past teams has an effect. You either have talent or you don't. He had some talent on that team. He certainly improved the team a bit that what he came from. Of course, so did Jones (to a much higher degree), but people want him gone...lol
RE: The Decline of VCU Basketball - 757ODU - 04-12-2017 01:31 PM
(04-12-2017 01:22 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:(04-12-2017 01:12 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:(04-12-2017 12:54 PM)Cyniclone Wrote: I guess my question for those who use Rhoades' record against JJ as a piece of evidence that he's overrated or even not good is this: If JJ went to Rice and Rhoades to ODU, do you think JJ would still have won five of their six meetings?
That would be really difficult to know. Can't say I have an opinion. I know Rice had some talent in Egor, Evans, and Jackson, but didn't win.
But he still had players from the dark days, particularly in his first two seasons. Plus he had a lot of variables to overcome, including a long history of poor performance and measured indifference from the campus and the city at large. Had Rhoades stayed and kept most of his players (presuming that Egor tests the pro waters or grad transfers to a big program anyway), it's not unreasonable to think that Rice would be among the contenders next season. Their trend line was clearly up, as much if not more than any program in CUSA.
There wasn't anywhere else for their trend line to go. Rice was the same team they were the year before.
RE: The Decline of VCU Basketball - FearTheLion - 04-12-2017 01:39 PM
Nothing wrong with letting things play out. Problem is that several on here seem to know the future. Rhodes was real good at RMC and a well-liked understudy on SS's staff. The players loved him before he got the Rice job. There's nothing in me that says he did enough at Rice to earn that seat but he had done some very good things before he got to Rice and I'm sure Ed remembers that.
All that said, anyone on here spending 10 or more posts selling why Mike Rhodes would have been hands down a better choice than Jeff Jones is speculating at best. And that's why these so called discussions aren't really that. They are more like a post-count contest. Say what you feel and keep saying it more than anyone else while calling the others clueless. That's the message board game.
Mike might return VCU to the Shaka trajectory. But when they talk about how he built the Rice program, I'm suspicious that they might be relying too much on the heart vs the eyes and headed towards real disappointed in the end. Either way, VCU is way overdue for disappointment which is another reason this thread is crazy talk.
RE: The Decline of VCU Basketball - Petey Hodge - 04-12-2017 01:48 PM
Sean Spicer just said that Hitler hasn't ever coached a team to victory against JJ!
RE: The Decline of VCU Basketball - Cyniclone - 04-12-2017 01:50 PM
(04-12-2017 01:31 PM)Gilesfan Wrote: I don't really see how past teams has an effect. You either have talent or you don't. He had some talent on that team. He certainly improved the team a bit that what he came from. Of course, so did Jones (to a much higher degree), but people want him gone...lol
A bad basketball culture is very difficult to overcome, no matter how hard you work the recruiting trail. Trying to sell high school seniors on playing for a program that hasn't seen the NCAAs since 1970 and has never won a non-consolation NCAA game, in front of a microscopic crowd, is a tough bill of goods. Having some talent doesn't mitigate the lack of talent elsewhere on the roster, especially if they're not guys you recruited. That's why it's a fool's folly to judge a coach one way or another when they're still dealing with the residual effects of the last failed coach, especially in the context of a program that's been so bad for so long.
Rhoades had a .474 winning percentage, which sounds bad, or at least not great, but it's the best percentage for a Rice coach in 58 years. Plus again, it's not unreasonable to think that Rice would have been one of the favorites in CUSA this season had Rhoades stayed.
JJ wasn't trying to create a winning culture out of whole cloth. He was trying to right a ship that listed hard in the previous two seasons. Considering how fast he got ODU to the top 25 and the precipice of the NCAAS, you'd be hard pressed to say he wasn't successful initially, but he also had more to work with. The problem most people have with him is that the program has by almost every metric regressed since then.
RE: The Decline of VCU Basketball - AdoptedMonarch - 04-12-2017 01:51 PM
Madonna said ******, ***** and ****.
RE: The Decline of VCU Basketball - Cyniclone - 04-12-2017 01:52 PM
(04-12-2017 01:31 PM)757ODU Wrote:(04-12-2017 01:22 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:(04-12-2017 01:12 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:(04-12-2017 12:54 PM)Cyniclone Wrote: I guess my question for those who use Rhoades' record against JJ as a piece of evidence that he's overrated or even not good is this: If JJ went to Rice and Rhoades to ODU, do you think JJ would still have won five of their six meetings?
That would be really difficult to know. Can't say I have an opinion. I know Rice had some talent in Egor, Evans, and Jackson, but didn't win.
But he still had players from the dark days, particularly in his first two seasons. Plus he had a lot of variables to overcome, including a long history of poor performance and measured indifference from the campus and the city at large. Had Rhoades stayed and kept most of his players (presuming that Egor tests the pro waters or grad transfers to a big program anyway), it's not unreasonable to think that Rice would be among the contenders next season. Their trend line was clearly up, as much if not more than any program in CUSA.
There wasn't anywhere else for their trend line to go. Rice was the same team they were the year before.
Rice was 12-20 (7-11) in 2015-16. It was 23-12 (11-7) in 2016-17. Even accounting for a weak OOC schedule last season, how is that the same team? Plus it's not like they had a murderer's row scheduled in 2015-16.
RE: The Decline of VCU Basketball - 757ODU - 04-12-2017 02:11 PM
(04-12-2017 01:52 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:(04-12-2017 01:31 PM)757ODU Wrote:(04-12-2017 01:22 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:(04-12-2017 01:12 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:(04-12-2017 12:54 PM)Cyniclone Wrote: I guess my question for those who use Rhoades' record against JJ as a piece of evidence that he's overrated or even not good is this: If JJ went to Rice and Rhoades to ODU, do you think JJ would still have won five of their six meetings?
That would be really difficult to know. Can't say I have an opinion. I know Rice had some talent in Egor, Evans, and Jackson, but didn't win.
But he still had players from the dark days, particularly in his first two seasons. Plus he had a lot of variables to overcome, including a long history of poor performance and measured indifference from the campus and the city at large. Had Rhoades stayed and kept most of his players (presuming that Egor tests the pro waters or grad transfers to a big program anyway), it's not unreasonable to think that Rice would be among the contenders next season. Their trend line was clearly up, as much if not more than any program in CUSA.
There wasn't anywhere else for their trend line to go. Rice was the same team they were the year before.
Rice was 12-20 (7-11) in 2015-16. It was 23-12 (11-7) in 2016-17. Even accounting for a weak OOC schedule last season, how is that the same team? Plus it's not like they had a murderer's row scheduled in 2015-16.
Quality teams played out of conference in 2015-2016:
Cal
Oregon state
Fresno State
New Mexico
UT Arlington
2016-2017:
Texas Tech
Pitt
In 2015-2016 they beat a better ODU team and lost both in 2016-2017. They totaled more wins against the bottom feeders in the conference.
Record against the top 4 teams in CUSA this year: 1-6
Record against the top 4 teams in CUSA last year: 0-5
So marginally better.
RE: The Decline of VCU Basketball - Cyniclone - 04-12-2017 02:40 PM
(04-12-2017 02:11 PM)757ODU Wrote:(04-12-2017 01:52 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:(04-12-2017 01:31 PM)757ODU Wrote:(04-12-2017 01:22 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:(04-12-2017 01:12 PM)Gilesfan Wrote: That would be really difficult to know. Can't say I have an opinion. I know Rice had some talent in Egor, Evans, and Jackson, but didn't win.
But he still had players from the dark days, particularly in his first two seasons. Plus he had a lot of variables to overcome, including a long history of poor performance and measured indifference from the campus and the city at large. Had Rhoades stayed and kept most of his players (presuming that Egor tests the pro waters or grad transfers to a big program anyway), it's not unreasonable to think that Rice would be among the contenders next season. Their trend line was clearly up, as much if not more than any program in CUSA.
There wasn't anywhere else for their trend line to go. Rice was the same team they were the year before.
Rice was 12-20 (7-11) in 2015-16. It was 23-12 (11-7) in 2016-17. Even accounting for a weak OOC schedule last season, how is that the same team? Plus it's not like they had a murderer's row scheduled in 2015-16.
Quality teams played out of conference in 2015-2016:
Cal
Oregon state
Fresno State
New Mexico
UT Arlington
2016-2017:
Texas Tech
Pitt
In 2015-2016 they beat a better ODU team and lost both in 2016-2017. They totaled more wins against the bottom feeders in the conference.
Record against the top 4 teams in CUSA this year: 1-6
Record against the top 4 teams in CUSA last year: 0-5
So marginally better.
But outside New Mexico (and at 17-15 with a 137 RPI, they're a borderline quality team), they had all of two OOC wins against D1 competition — Lamar (337 RPI) and UC-Riverside (268). They lost to South Alabama (240), Houston Baptist (235), San Francisco (226) and Incarnate Word (167). And they started the CUSA season with losses to UTSA (347!), North Texas (294) and UTEP (215). And they went 0-3 against Charlotte (231). While they showed signs of something better by the end of the season, it was the second year of cleaning the Aegean stables, and it showed.
Last season, they only lost three of those 200-plus games, compared to nine the season before that. Sure, they beat a lot of garbage teams, but the season before, they weren't even .500 against those teams. Nobody's saying Rice was an NCAA contender or anything, but they made significant strides in Rhoades' third season, and they were poised to do so again in the coming season.
Say what you will about whether Rhoades is as good as advertised, or whether he matches up with JJ or any of the other potential ODU coaches like Keatts or Enfield. But it's hard to say that Rhoades didn't leave Rice a good bit stronger than he found them.
RE: The Decline of VCU Basketball - 757ODU - 04-12-2017 02:56 PM
(04-12-2017 02:40 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:(04-12-2017 02:11 PM)757ODU Wrote:(04-12-2017 01:52 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:(04-12-2017 01:31 PM)757ODU Wrote:(04-12-2017 01:22 PM)Cyniclone Wrote: But he still had players from the dark days, particularly in his first two seasons. Plus he had a lot of variables to overcome, including a long history of poor performance and measured indifference from the campus and the city at large. Had Rhoades stayed and kept most of his players (presuming that Egor tests the pro waters or grad transfers to a big program anyway), it's not unreasonable to think that Rice would be among the contenders next season. Their trend line was clearly up, as much if not more than any program in CUSA.
There wasn't anywhere else for their trend line to go. Rice was the same team they were the year before.
Rice was 12-20 (7-11) in 2015-16. It was 23-12 (11-7) in 2016-17. Even accounting for a weak OOC schedule last season, how is that the same team? Plus it's not like they had a murderer's row scheduled in 2015-16.
Quality teams played out of conference in 2015-2016:
Cal
Oregon state
Fresno State
New Mexico
UT Arlington
2016-2017:
Texas Tech
Pitt
In 2015-2016 they beat a better ODU team and lost both in 2016-2017. They totaled more wins against the bottom feeders in the conference.
Record against the top 4 teams in CUSA this year: 1-6
Record against the top 4 teams in CUSA last year: 0-5
So marginally better.
But outside New Mexico (and at 17-15 with a 137 RPI, they're a borderline quality team), they had all of two OOC wins against D1 competition — Lamar (337 RPI) and UC-Riverside (268). They lost to South Alabama (240), Houston Baptist (235), San Francisco (226) and Incarnate Word (167). And they started the CUSA season with losses to UTSA (347!), North Texas (294) and UTEP (215). And they went 0-3 against Charlotte (231). While they showed signs of something better by the end of the season, it was the second year of cleaning the Aegean stables, and it showed.
Last season, they only lost three of those 200-plus games, compared to nine the season before that. Sure, they beat a lot of garbage teams, but the season before, they weren't even .500 against those teams. Nobody's saying Rice was an NCAA contender or anything, but they made significant strides in Rhoades' third season, and they were poised to do so again in the coming season.
Say what you will about whether Rhoades is as good as advertised, or whether he matches up with JJ or any of the other potential ODU coaches like Keatts or Enfield. But it's hard to say that Rhoades didn't leave Rice a good bit stronger than he found them.
I definitely think they are better than when he first got there. I'm just not impressed with what he did. My main argument in all of this, is that I don't believe he earned the VCU job. He got it, and could prove me wrong. I (and hopefully you too) hope he doesn't.
RE: The Decline of VCU Basketball - Monarchblue - 04-12-2017 02:57 PM
(04-12-2017 01:31 PM)Gilesfan Wrote: I don't really see how past teams has an effect. You either have talent or you don't. He had some talent on that team. He certainly improved the team a bit that what he came from. Of course, so did Jones (to a much higher degree), but people want him gone...lol
I am pretty sure you have referenced the fact that we had a 5-25 season once on occasion to excuse JJ.
RE: The Decline of VCU Basketball - Monarchblue - 04-12-2017 02:59 PM
(04-12-2017 01:39 PM)FearTheLion Wrote: Nothing wrong with letting things play out. Problem is that several on here seem to know the future. Rhodes was real good at RMC and a well-liked understudy on SS's staff. The players loved him before he got the Rice job. There's nothing in me that says he did enough at Rice to earn that seat but he had done some very good things before he got to Rice and I'm sure Ed remembers that.
All that said, anyone on here spending 10 or more posts selling why Mike Rhodes would have been hands down a better choice than Jeff Jones is speculating at best. And that's why these so called discussions aren't really that. They are more like a post-count contest. Say what you feel and keep saying it more than anyone else while calling the others clueless. That's the message board game.
Mike might return VCU to the Shaka trajectory. But when they talk about how he built the Rice program, I'm suspicious that they might be relying too much on the heart vs the eyes and headed towards real disappointed in the end. Either way, VCU is way overdue for disappointment which is another reason this thread is crazy talk.
I mean, Its not like there is much else to discuss right now. I am just happy that there is some discussion this time of year.
RE: The Decline of VCU Basketball - Monarchist13 - 04-12-2017 03:01 PM
(04-12-2017 02:40 PM)Cyniclone Wrote: Say what you will about whether Rhoades is as good as advertised, or whether he matches up with JJ or any of the other potential ODU coaches like Keatts or Enfield. But it's hard to say that Rhoades didn't leave Rice a good bit stronger than he found them.
Considering the top 2 players left (among others), doubt they'll be better next season. And they'll more than likely backslide to their old ways of bottom feeding. Other than getting some good recruits (who are pretty much all leaving), what did he do to change the program for the future?
RE: The Decline of VCU Basketball - Monarchblue - 04-12-2017 03:06 PM
(04-12-2017 02:56 PM)757ODU Wrote:(04-12-2017 02:40 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:(04-12-2017 02:11 PM)757ODU Wrote:(04-12-2017 01:52 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:(04-12-2017 01:31 PM)757ODU Wrote: There wasn't anywhere else for their trend line to go. Rice was the same team they were the year before.
Rice was 12-20 (7-11) in 2015-16. It was 23-12 (11-7) in 2016-17. Even accounting for a weak OOC schedule last season, how is that the same team? Plus it's not like they had a murderer's row scheduled in 2015-16.
Quality teams played out of conference in 2015-2016:
Cal
Oregon state
Fresno State
New Mexico
UT Arlington
2016-2017:
Texas Tech
Pitt
In 2015-2016 they beat a better ODU team and lost both in 2016-2017. They totaled more wins against the bottom feeders in the conference.
Record against the top 4 teams in CUSA this year: 1-6
Record against the top 4 teams in CUSA last year: 0-5
So marginally better.
But outside New Mexico (and at 17-15 with a 137 RPI, they're a borderline quality team), they had all of two OOC wins against D1 competition — Lamar (337 RPI) and UC-Riverside (268). They lost to South Alabama (240), Houston Baptist (235), San Francisco (226) and Incarnate Word (167). And they started the CUSA season with losses to UTSA (347!), North Texas (294) and UTEP (215). And they went 0-3 against Charlotte (231). While they showed signs of something better by the end of the season, it was the second year of cleaning the Aegean stables, and it showed.
Last season, they only lost three of those 200-plus games, compared to nine the season before that. Sure, they beat a lot of garbage teams, but the season before, they weren't even .500 against those teams. Nobody's saying Rice was an NCAA contender or anything, but they made significant strides in Rhoades' third season, and they were poised to do so again in the coming season.
Say what you will about whether Rhoades is as good as advertised, or whether he matches up with JJ or any of the other potential ODU coaches like Keatts or Enfield. But it's hard to say that Rhoades didn't leave Rice a good bit stronger than he found them.
I definitely think they are better than when he first got there. I'm just not impressed with what he did. My main argument in all of this, is that I don't believe he earned the VCU job. He got it, and could prove me wrong. I (and hopefully you too) hope he doesn't.
He worked at VCU and then they decided to make him the head coach of their prized possession. I would say he earned it. He may not have earned it the way you think a coach should earn it, but it is not like he is an unknown quantity to those who gave him the job, and they just said "wow this guy was great at Rice, let's get him in here." They already had a body of work to judge in addition to the Rice turn around, and apparently were impressed by the work he does.
RE: The Decline of VCU Basketball - 757ODU - 04-12-2017 03:13 PM
(04-12-2017 03:06 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:(04-12-2017 02:56 PM)757ODU Wrote:(04-12-2017 02:40 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:(04-12-2017 02:11 PM)757ODU Wrote:(04-12-2017 01:52 PM)Cyniclone Wrote: Rice was 12-20 (7-11) in 2015-16. It was 23-12 (11-7) in 2016-17. Even accounting for a weak OOC schedule last season, how is that the same team? Plus it's not like they had a murderer's row scheduled in 2015-16.
Quality teams played out of conference in 2015-2016:
Cal
Oregon state
Fresno State
New Mexico
UT Arlington
2016-2017:
Texas Tech
Pitt
In 2015-2016 they beat a better ODU team and lost both in 2016-2017. They totaled more wins against the bottom feeders in the conference.
Record against the top 4 teams in CUSA this year: 1-6
Record against the top 4 teams in CUSA last year: 0-5
So marginally better.
But outside New Mexico (and at 17-15 with a 137 RPI, they're a borderline quality team), they had all of two OOC wins against D1 competition — Lamar (337 RPI) and UC-Riverside (268). They lost to South Alabama (240), Houston Baptist (235), San Francisco (226) and Incarnate Word (167). And they started the CUSA season with losses to UTSA (347!), North Texas (294) and UTEP (215). And they went 0-3 against Charlotte (231). While they showed signs of something better by the end of the season, it was the second year of cleaning the Aegean stables, and it showed.
Last season, they only lost three of those 200-plus games, compared to nine the season before that. Sure, they beat a lot of garbage teams, but the season before, they weren't even .500 against those teams. Nobody's saying Rice was an NCAA contender or anything, but they made significant strides in Rhoades' third season, and they were poised to do so again in the coming season.
Say what you will about whether Rhoades is as good as advertised, or whether he matches up with JJ or any of the other potential ODU coaches like Keatts or Enfield. But it's hard to say that Rhoades didn't leave Rice a good bit stronger than he found them.
I definitely think they are better than when he first got there. I'm just not impressed with what he did. My main argument in all of this, is that I don't believe he earned the VCU job. He got it, and could prove me wrong. I (and hopefully you too) hope he doesn't.
He worked at VCU and then they decided to make him the head coach of their prized possession. I would say he earned it. He may not have earned it the way you think a coach should earn it, but it is not like he is an unknown quantity to those who gave him the job, and they just said "wow this guy was great at Rice, let's get him in here." They already had a body of work to judge in addition to the Rice turn around, and apparently were impressed by the work he does.
They're clearly more qualified to make those decisions than I am. Anxious to see how it plays out.
RE: The Decline of VCU Basketball - Gilesfan - 04-12-2017 03:15 PM
(04-12-2017 02:57 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:(04-12-2017 01:31 PM)Gilesfan Wrote: I don't really see how past teams has an effect. You either have talent or you don't. He had some talent on that team. He certainly improved the team a bit that what he came from. Of course, so did Jones (to a much higher degree), but people want him gone...lol
I am pretty sure you have referenced the fact that we had a 5-25 season once on occasion to excuse JJ.
Past teams= history of the program. What I'm referring to is the talent on the team when the coach came on board.
RE: The Decline of VCU Basketball - Monarchblue - 04-12-2017 03:33 PM
(04-12-2017 03:15 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:(04-12-2017 02:57 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:(04-12-2017 01:31 PM)Gilesfan Wrote: I don't really see how past teams has an effect. You either have talent or you don't. He had some talent on that team. He certainly improved the team a bit that what he came from. Of course, so did Jones (to a much higher degree), but people want him gone...lol
I am pretty sure you have referenced the fact that we had a 5-25 season once on occasion to excuse JJ.
Past teams= history of the program. What I'm referring to is the talent on the team when the coach came on board.
So it should have in no way effected JJ's recruiting?
RE: The Decline of VCU Basketball - Gilesfan - 04-12-2017 03:43 PM
(04-12-2017 03:33 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:(04-12-2017 03:15 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:(04-12-2017 02:57 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:(04-12-2017 01:31 PM)Gilesfan Wrote: I don't really see how past teams has an effect. You either have talent or you don't. He had some talent on that team. He certainly improved the team a bit that what he came from. Of course, so did Jones (to a much higher degree), but people want him gone...lol
I am pretty sure you have referenced the fact that we had a 5-25 season once on occasion to excuse JJ.
Past teams= history of the program. What I'm referring to is the talent on the team when the coach came on board.
So it should have in no way effected JJ's recruiting?
That the team won 5 games or the past history? I would assume sometimes the past helps and sometimes it doesn't matter. Did Jones have an inherent advantage over Rhoades? Im not sure, Evans seemed to like Rice better.
RE: The Decline of VCU Basketball - Cyniclone - 04-12-2017 03:43 PM
(04-12-2017 03:01 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:(04-12-2017 02:40 PM)Cyniclone Wrote: Say what you will about whether Rhoades is as good as advertised, or whether he matches up with JJ or any of the other potential ODU coaches like Keatts or Enfield. But it's hard to say that Rhoades didn't leave Rice a good bit stronger than he found them.
Considering the top 2 players left (among others), doubt they'll be better next season. And they'll more than likely backslide to their old ways of bottom feeding. Other than getting some good recruits (who are pretty much all leaving), what did he do to change the program for the future?
Culturally. After many years of sub-mediocrity, attendance has gone up while he was there and the AD (and donors, apparently) upped Rhoades' contract when Shaka left for UT to keep him from jumping to VCU. They might end up crapping out and going right back to where they were a few years ago, but even with all the defections, they're still in a better place than they were after they finally fired Ben Braun — seriously, six years and 63 wins to show for it, and it took them that long to show him the door. I don't think they let the next coach average 10 wins a season for that long, because the culture is better.
RE: The Decline of VCU Basketball - Monarchist13 - 04-12-2017 05:31 PM
(04-12-2017 03:43 PM)Cyniclone Wrote: Culturally. After many years of sub-mediocrity, attendance has gone up while he was there and the AD (and donors, apparently) upped Rhoades' contract when Shaka left for UT to keep him from jumping to VCU. They might end up crapping out and going right back to where they were a few years ago, but even with all the defections, they're still in a better place than they were after they finally fired Ben Braun — seriously, six years and 63 wins to show for it, and it took them that long to show him the door. I don't think they let the next coach average 10 wins a season for that long, because the culture is better.
A lot of what you listed are institutional commitments IMO. Many of which were made when they got tired of losing and fired Braun. Their entire AD has made a lot of investments as of late and I'm not sure how you can give him a lot of the credit with increasing what they're spending.
Sure, they increased the pay to keep him. But if they weren't committed to basketball, the coach wouldn't have mattered. He can be credited with increased attendance from their turnaround under him but winning is the main factor there. And its not a sustainable change if they dont continue winning.
I just don't see anything that he did while at Rice having a lasting impact that can be directly attributed to him alone. The only thing I see having an impact; his tenure proved to Rice that they can compete if they hire the right coach who can land the right players. But even then, if they don't stay committed to the sport, that will be fleeting.
I would also like to note that I am not questioning his hiring at VCU at all. It seemed like the smart move from the jump and I think he will keep the boat rolling in Richmond.