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Nippert Defilement - Saw it Tonight - Printable Version

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RE: Nippert Defilement - Saw it Tonight - rath v2.0 - 11-15-2017 09:42 AM

(11-15-2017 09:28 AM)bearcatdp Wrote:  P Doc weighs in. I don't always agree with him (he's an opinion man so I don't expect to) but his thinking is similar to mine. https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/columnists/paul-daugherty/2017/11/14/paul-daugherty-fc-cincinnati-stadium-deal-wont-get-better-than/864518001/

For the reasons I've set forth Doc is as uninformed as many and is taking the emotional plea that Bernini and Lindner want to cultivate...he is completely wrong. It's not being fully funded by FCC. This does cost taxpayers money that we have in the bank. Even if those funds are slated for a different purpose and haven't been spent yet. Give it away now you have got to make it up down the road and that only happens one way.


RE: Nippert Defilement - Saw it Tonight - doss2 - 11-15-2017 09:44 AM

I feel my thread has been hijacked.


RE: Nippert Defilement - Saw it Tonight - bearcatdp - 11-15-2017 09:47 AM

(11-15-2017 09:42 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  
(11-15-2017 09:28 AM)bearcatdp Wrote:  P Doc weighs in. I don't always agree with him (he's an opinion man so I don't expect to) but his thinking is similar to mine. https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/columnists/paul-daugherty/2017/11/14/paul-daugherty-fc-cincinnati-stadium-deal-wont-get-better-than/864518001/

For the reasons I've set forth Doc is as uninformed as many and is taking the emotional plea that Bernini and Lindner want to cultivate...he is completely wrong. It's not being fully funded by FCC. This does cost taxpayers money that we have in the bank. Even if those funds are slated for a different purpose and haven't been spent yet. Give it away now you have got to make it up down the road and that only happens one way.

What is the amount the county could be out with the TIF - I thought I saw around 75 million over time somewhere.


RE: Nippert Defilement - Saw it Tonight - rath v2.0 - 11-15-2017 10:05 AM

The TIF benefits to FCC and the deductions from the public coffers are unknown. It's the sound of one hand clapping. TIFs were designed as a way to spur economic development in economically and socially downtrodden areas. Bring jobs to areas where there are none and you get a tax break. The area they want to develop in Oakley is one of the hottest and highest developed areas in Greater Cincinnati right now. It doesn't need economic development spurred on by tax dollars or waiving tax receipts for decades. The people that need jobs TIFs were originally designed to benefit are not really that welcome in Oakley anymore.

Hard money...real dollars coming out of the bank accounts of Hamilton County from tax receipts, Lindner is demanding $2.8 million dollars a year every year for the next 30 freaking years. That's the $75 million you read (it's really $84 million but people believe what they are told). It's real money not pushing paper around via TIF.


RE: Nippert Defilement - Saw it Tonight - BearcatMan - 11-15-2017 10:14 AM

(11-15-2017 09:44 AM)doss2 Wrote:  I feel my thread has been hijacked.

That's about the best post I've ever seen


RE: Nippert Defilement - Saw it Tonight - BearcatMan - 11-15-2017 10:20 AM

(11-15-2017 09:36 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  
(11-15-2017 09:19 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(11-15-2017 09:15 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  
(11-15-2017 08:52 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(11-15-2017 08:30 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  That's part of the problem nobody is talking about. The way the local ordinance was written it supposed to be used for things like improvement of Duke energy center and the Sharonville convention center along with other visitors bureau items. This would likely end up in court just like the federal court case going on in Clermont County because the commissioners there are trying to use that tax to give the Lindner family money for a new practice facility. Once again screw them they are not owed anything and this money was not designated for that use. It's not a slush fund for their private venture.

We are conditioned to say it's not being used so it's really not costing taxpayers any more money. Once committed to some silly sports venture run by a private billionaire family, they're gone. So how do we make those up when needed at some point? You got it...raise taxes somewhere else or cut services, etc.

If that's true, then I would understand their lack of agreement in the use of the fund. The way it has been presented by both FCC and the Enquirer and other media pieces is that the fund itself is designated for improvements of any entertainment/tourism venture, not specific for DEC or Sharonville.

I'm sure it is no shock to people that Berding the former pol and hired shill who learned from the knee of Bob Bedinghaus who wrote the book on how to raid public coffers for wealthy Cincinnati sports families has a unique angle he is cultivating.

Per the county web page that discusses the use of this tax:

Quote:This division is responsible for the administration of the county lodging excise tax. The main functions include the collection and distribution of tax receipts and the conducting of audits of hotels and motels to ensure compliance with the tax regulations. The total county lodging tax is 6.5% and is distributed as follows:

3% is used primarily to support the Cincinnati USA Convention and Visitors Bureau , whose mission is to positively impact the Greater Cincinnati area economy through convention, trade show, and visitor expenditures. The remainder of this portion of the tax is returned to the municipal corporations and unincorporated areas in the county that have hotels but do not levy a separate lodging tax.

3.5% (effective December 1, 2002) is earmarked to the renovation and expansion of downtown Cincinnati's Duke Energy Convention Center and the Sharonville Convention Center , and other capital projects that will drive increased tourism.

That last bit is what they're banking on, and it's pretty clear they're using the language (and punctuation) in the code to try to force it through. They're arguing that a project like this will bring tourism (and it will, because there are such thing as visiting fans). I think they've got a fairly decent argument to use some of that tax....the bigger questions is where is the money that the county has been collecting for 15 years and how has it been used for improvements of those facilities.

The thing about those provisions is they require lots of data and studies and committees and hard information that backs up that claim of the ROI on the front end before any decisions are arbitrarily made to allocate these taxpayer funds for "other" improvements not specifically delineated. You don't get to just allocate the money because it feels right or people voice an opinion about it.

And once again, when those funds have been spent to benefit a private family and their private venture and then the convention centers and other visitors bureau items need to be addressed financially, and they will as day follows night, tell me where those funds come from? You are a smart guy and already know the answer to that.

Oh, 98% agree (jury's still out on my intelligence according to the other half)...I just like to look at both sides of the argument. This is obviously running headlong into an agreement that the county won't be able to match at least a few years, then at that point will the county pull from reserve or tack on additional taxes (you and I both know that answer too). It's nowhere near the kind of ass-reaming that Mike Brown got passed, but that has a lot to do with the sport they were offering and it's entrenchment in the American culture. I feel like a non-insignificant part of this has to do with the fact that it's for soccer, but obviously the majority of the backlash is due to the way Mike Brown went all Harvey Weinstein on the citizens of the county.


RE: Nippert Defilement - Saw it Tonight - BearcatsUC - 11-15-2017 10:25 AM

(11-15-2017 10:05 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  The TIF benefits to FCC and the deductions from the public coffers are unknown. It's the sound of one hand clapping. TIFs were designed as a way to spur economic development in economically and socially downtrodden areas. Bring jobs to areas where there are none and you get a tax break. The area they want to develop in Oakley is one of the hottest and highest developed areas in Greater Cincinnati right now. It doesn't need economic development spurred on by tax dollars or waiving tax receipts for decades. The people that need jobs TIFs were originally designed to benefit are not really that welcome in Oakley anymore.

Hard money...real dollars coming out of the bank accounts of Hamilton County from tax receipts, Lindner is demanding $2.8 million dollars a year every year for the next 30 freaking years. That's the $75 million you read (it's really $84 million but people believe what they are told). It's real money not pushing paper around via TIF.

The thing about TIFs is that if they don’t produce enough tax revenue, the taxpayers are on the hook. Look at the mess that is the Yum Center!

Think about that - 30 years! Anymore, stadiums turn obsolete after 20. Mapfre is now deemed useless. Just think about what’s being built - a 25,000 seat soccer stadium. If soccer grows like FCC ownership suggests, 25,000 will be too small. I see demands for more tax money in 10-15 years because the facilities will be inadequate.

I kind of hope Newport gets it. They whore themselves to any developer with money. Let them pay the price.


RE: Nippert Defilement - Saw it Tonight - rath v2.0 - 11-15-2017 10:27 AM

Yep. Should send this to the off topic board. Although what we're talking about now ties directly into what we talked about originally. The Lindners using public resources in a way that lines their family's pockets at below fair market value.

People need to keep their eyes on the ball here and not get caught up in the "look over here" they are pulling. What FCC really wants is not the basic hotel tax money for improvements or the TIF breaks breaks or all the other benefits that they will be asking for, what they ultimately want is for the taxpayers through this series of concessions to fund the franchise's operating costs going forward after they invest in the capital improvement on the front end that they solely control and they will depreciate going forward. They are no dummies. They know how to make money from other people's money. The problem is that they thought that our elected officials were dummies-hopefully they are not. They have way underestimated the public sentiment against giving billionaires public money to operate their sports ATM within the city limits.


RE: Nippert Defilement - Saw it Tonight - JackieTreehorn - 11-15-2017 10:28 AM

(11-15-2017 09:44 AM)doss2 Wrote:  I feel my thread has been hijacked.

Not exactly, because if/when they build their soccer stadium, then the ridiculous notches can be removed at Nippert.


RE: Nippert Defilement - Saw it Tonight - rath v2.0 - 11-15-2017 10:35 AM

Weren't we supposed to pay them back or some other ridiculous provision if they no longer use Nippert?


RE: Nippert Defilement - Saw it Tonight - BearcatsUC - 11-15-2017 10:48 AM

(11-15-2017 10:35 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Weren't we supposed to pay them back or some other ridiculous provision if they no longer use Nippert?

FCC paid for the notches; UC is paying FCC back with concession funds. Only after UC pays FCC back for FCC’s soccer field will UC get to keep its share of the concession funds.

Speaking of notches, are they really that bad? I haven’t had to look at them since I dropped my season tickets. I figure they aren’t all that bad since I’ve not seen any commentary on them.


RE: Nippert Defilement - Saw it Tonight - Ragpicker - 11-15-2017 10:53 AM

(11-15-2017 10:35 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Weren't we supposed to pay them back or some other ridiculous provision if they no longer use Nippert?

The notches ain't going nowhere. Not as long a we have less than 15,000 show up for games and 3000 stay through halftime.

Sh!tty team, sh!tty attendance, which is a direct result of being in a sh!tty league. The only question remaining is Luke Fickell the second coming of Dave Currey?

We lose Saturday, and UC athletics should promote the UConn game with a vintage 80's theme - Back to the Future/Past. CF could arrive in a Delorean. Prizes given out for the best mullets, best duck shoes, and best parachute pants. Hell everyone can get a prize after halftime since only a few hundred will be in attendance. The good news is that we should be able to sneak a keg into Nippert just like 1983, and the dance team will wear leg warmers, ear cuffs, and all that big hair.


RE: Nippert Defilement - Saw it Tonight - BearcatsUC - 11-15-2017 10:57 AM

(11-15-2017 10:53 AM)Ragpicker Wrote:  
(11-15-2017 10:35 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Weren't we supposed to pay them back or some other ridiculous provision if they no longer use Nippert?

The notches ain't going nowhere. Not as long a we have less than 15,000 show up for games and 3000 stay through halftime.

Sh!tty team, sh!tty attendance, which is a direct result of being in a sh!tty league. The only question remaining is Luke Fickell the second coming of Dave Currey?

We lose Saturday, and UC athletics should promote the UConn game with a vintage 80's theme - Back to the Future/Past. CF could arrive in a Delorean. Prizes given out for the best mullets, best duck shoes, and best parachute pants. Hell everyone can get a prize after halftime since only a few hundred will be in attendance. The good news is that we should be able to sneak a keg into Nippert just like 1983, and the dance team will wear leg warmers, ear cuffs, and all that big hair.

With regards to the notches, I said the very same thing, except my point was that as long as UC is not P5 those removed seats do not need to be replaced.


RE: Nippert Defilement - Saw it Tonight - The T-Shirt - 11-15-2017 10:57 AM

03-lmfao


RE: Nippert Defilement - Saw it Tonight - rath v2.0 - 11-15-2017 11:14 AM

I heard the same bullish!t message yesterday as Berding pushed on May 25th, 2017.

Quote:Berding also suggested public investment would be a payback to the Lindner family for its largesse over the years.

“Carl Lindner and his family have brought thousands of jobs to the city for decades and never asked for help,” Berding said.

Riiiiight...


RE: Nippert Defilement - Saw it Tonight - bearcatdp - 11-15-2017 11:25 AM

(11-15-2017 11:14 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I heard the same bullish!t message yesterday as Berding pushed on May 25th, 2017.

Quote:Berding also suggested public investment would be a payback to the Lindner family for its largesse over the years.

“Carl Lindner and his family have brought thousands of jobs to the city for decades and never asked for help,” Berding said.

Riiiiight...

Reparations for a billionaire - love it! They suffered so much bringing jobs to the city.


RE: Nippert Defilement - Saw it Tonight - geef - 11-15-2017 11:37 AM

(11-15-2017 11:14 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I heard the same bullish!t message yesterday as Berding pushed on May 25th, 2017.

Quote:Berding also suggested public investment would be a payback to the Lindner family for its largesse over the years.

“Carl Lindner and his family have brought thousands of jobs to the city for decades and never asked for help,” Berding said.

Riiiiight...

Not an apples to apples comparison, but it's been interesting to watch the FC Cincinnati stadium debate from my perspective. I'm a MLS season ticket holder (Portland Timbers) and unabashed soccer fan. The Timbers have a 21,000 seat stadium, 13,000 person season ticket waiting list, and they're part of this city's fabric in a way that's similar to Ohio State in Columbus. Basically, they can do no wrong. Their ownership announced plans for a stadium renovation and expansion last winter, and that expansion began last week. It's comparatively modest at $75 million total, but at no point was there a mention of public funding. The owner, Hank Paulson's son, doesn't have Lindner money, but he has plenty. And he framed the expansion as a way of investing in his business and his fans, who have essentially made his business successful. As a sports fan, the business language makes me cringe. But that's what it is, and that's how we should treat it. The county's tax dollars, especially if related to tourism, can be spent so much more effectively. Expand Findlay Market. Create a formal brewery district with incentives for new brewers to renovate buildings. Market the underground Cincinnati tours. Complete the Wasson Way Bike Trail. Just don't give away money to a billionaire, who in turn lines his own pockets.


RE: Nippert Defilement - Saw it Tonight - bearcatmill - 11-15-2017 12:02 PM

(11-15-2017 11:14 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I heard the same bullish!t message yesterday as Berding pushed on May 25th, 2017.

Quote:Berding also suggested public investment would be a payback to the Lindner family for its largesse over the years.

“Carl Lindner and his family have brought thousands of jobs to the city for decades and never asked for help,” Berding said.

Riiiiight...

LMAO ... Berding acts as if the Lindners run a 501©(3).


RE: Nippert Defilement - Saw it Tonight - levydl - 11-15-2017 12:18 PM

(11-15-2017 12:02 PM)bearcatmill Wrote:  
(11-15-2017 11:14 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I heard the same bullish!t message yesterday as Berding pushed on May 25th, 2017.

Quote:Berding also suggested public investment would be a payback to the Lindner family for its largesse over the years.

“Carl Lindner and his family have brought thousands of jobs to the city for decades and never asked for help,” Berding said.

Riiiiight...

LMAO ... Berding acts as if the Lindners run a 501©(3).

And it wasn't even him, it was his dad. My dad was an oncologist. All the cancer my family has cured, and here I get no recognition.

Not to mention, taxpayers already built one sports stadium for the Lindner family.


RE: Nippert Defilement - Saw it Tonight - bearcatmark - 11-15-2017 12:19 PM

As one who recently moved to Butler County I say....why not? Let Rath pay for it.

Or better yet... since they are covering so much... Doss can you just wire the county 75 million to earmark for that?