(06-01-2019 09:22 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 08:19 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 07:09 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Does the stock market get him re-elected, or jobs? Does a tariff on China and Mexico hurt jobs here?

Certainly the stock market plays a large part in getting him re-elected. And the tariffs are definitely hurting the market. Jobs play a part as well but the market is a big deal when it comes to re-election.

Well, I depend on my retirement funds to live on. Stock Market would have to return to election day, 2016 levels(18,332.74), to make me wonder about him. Democrats can only finger point, but none of their policies are going to help me. Name one single thing that one single Democratic candidate wants to do that will help me.

OTOH, more people with jobs and better futures, with more take home - that might get their attention.

Going to be interesting.

If Trump wins re-election, do you think the left will continue their investigations/impeachment stuff, or will they turn to governing? Seems like maybe it will be time to give up the hysteria - it didn't work ...twice.

(06-02-2019 10:05 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 09:22 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 08:19 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 07:09 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Does the stock market get him re-elected, or jobs? Does a tariff on China and Mexico hurt jobs here?

Certainly the stock market plays a large part in getting him re-elected. And the tariffs are definitely hurting the market. Jobs play a part as well but the market is a big deal when it comes to re-election.

Well, I depend on my retirement funds to live on. Stock Market would have to return to election day, 2016 levels(18,332.74), to make me wonder about him. Democrats can only finger point, but none of their policies are going to help me. Name one single thing that one single Democratic candidate wants to do that will help me.

OTOH, more people with jobs and better futures, with more take home - that might get their attention.

Going to be interesting.

If Trump wins re-election, do you think the left will continue their investigations/impeachment stuff, or will they turn to governing? Seems like maybe it will be time to give up the hysteria - it didn't work ...twice.

It might even increase if he wins again because they will have lost their best chance to get Trump out of office. Not that I agree with that approach.

What do you think the right would do if the shoe were on the other foot?

(06-02-2019 10:01 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  The tariffs are a dumb way to go. Tariffs sound great as talking points, but they almost inevitably do more harm than good.

(06-01-2019 07:40 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-30-2019 11:42 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-30-2019 10:48 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-30-2019 10:38 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-30-2019 10:11 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  No, the key here is "White House official."
Again, the issue isn't what the Navy did, but what the WH did. The fact that any level of official at the WH thought it was a good idea to try and get a ship hidden because it was named after McCain is bad. Does it say anything positive about the admin that anyone working in an official capacity thought they should try and do this?
Also, why even try and refute the email? CNN provided more sources to back up the claim, and it sounds within the realm of possibilities for this WH.

"White House official" is a nebulous term that could be used to describe literally hundreds if not thousands of people, most of them lower level lackeys. The fact the this "official" was talking with a lower-level Navy person is a dead giveaway that it was one of the lower level lackeys. SecDef and anyone close to him aren't interested in talking to LTJG Jones, and LTJG Jones's commanding officer is damned determined that no such conversation take place. That's just not how it works. Could the question have been raised as one of about a thousand details that advance teams go over? Absolutely. For one thing, with repair crews crawling all over it, the McCain is probably pretty damned unsightly.
As far as the email, what CNN is produced is more sources of the same rumor, but no email. A rumor does not become true because more people repeat it.
Here's my best guess at what happened. There was probably a discussion of what to do with McCain at some point during the advance visit. It was a very low level discussion and was quickly quashed by higher ups. Some staff puke at COMNAVFORJAPAN probably decided that it looked like crap and it had to be spiffed up a bit. Probably a lot of red lead showing and stuff like that. So he had a paint barge go over and paint it out haze gray in a hurry. I would expect that there is a strong possibility that the ship name was painted over in haze gray, and the black ship's name was not repainted in by the time of the visit. There was a tarp to cover the paint job until it dried. Somebody took a photo of the tarp several days before the visit. The bit about the ship name stenciled on the hat is the part that tells me that the writer didn't really do the proper homework. I'm guessing maybe he had seen other navies who do display the ship's name on their hats and made an improper projection. Then somebody makes up this story about the email, somebody comes up with a photo of the tarp, and it gets traction.
The reason why this sounds within the realm of possibility is that we have had so many other stories where stupid allegations have gotten legs before they could be debunked.

I tend to agree with you that this is not much of a story. The actual email from somebody in the Navy has been making the rounds. In my quick scan I believe it said something like "keep the McCain out of sight". I would imagine that it involved lower-level people as you have postulated.
We all know that Trump is petty. Regardless of the source of the orders this doesn't change much.

Do you have a link to the email? My Internet search skills are not the equal of Almadenowl's, and I have not been able to find it.

I have also not been able to find the exact location of Wasp and McCain on the day of Trump's visit.

Not the email text, but the Navy responds directly to this and says an email was sent.

Quote:"A request was made to the U.S. Navy to minimize the visibility of USS John S. McCain, however, all ships remained in their normal configuration during the President's visit," Rear Admiral Charlie Brown, chief of information, said in a statement to NBC News.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/navy-acknowledges-request-was-made-hide-uss-john-s-mccain-n1012731

(06-01-2019 09:22 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 08:19 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 07:09 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Does the stock market get him re-elected, or jobs? Does a tariff on China and Mexico hurt jobs here?

Certainly the stock market plays a large part in getting him re-elected. And the tariffs are definitely hurting the market. Jobs play a part as well but the market is a big deal when it comes to re-election.

Well, I depend on my retirement funds to live on. Stock Market would have to return to election day, 2016 levels(18,332.74), to make me wonder about him. Democrats can only finger point, but none of their policies are going to help me. Name one single thing that one single Democratic candidate wants to do that will help me.

OTOH, more people with jobs and better futures, with more take home - that might get their attention.

Going to be interesting.

If Trump wins re-election, do you think the left will continue their investigations/impeachment stuff, or will they turn to governing? Seems like maybe it will be time to give up the hysteria - it didn't work ...twice.

(06-02-2019 04:04 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 07:40 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-30-2019 11:42 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-30-2019 10:48 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-30-2019 10:38 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  "White House official" is a nebulous term that could be used to describe literally hundreds if not thousands of people, most of them lower level lackeys. The fact the this "official" was talking with a lower-level Navy person is a dead giveaway that it was one of the lower level lackeys. SecDef and anyone close to him aren't interested in talking to LTJG Jones, and LTJG Jones's commanding officer is damned determined that no such conversation take place. That's just not how it works. Could the question have been raised as one of about a thousand details that advance teams go over? Absolutely. For one thing, with repair crews crawling all over it, the McCain is probably pretty damned unsightly.
As far as the email, what CNN is produced is more sources of the same rumor, but no email. A rumor does not become true because more people repeat it.
Here's my best guess at what happened. There was probably a discussion of what to do with McCain at some point during the advance visit. It was a very low level discussion and was quickly quashed by higher ups. Some staff puke at COMNAVFORJAPAN probably decided that it looked like crap and it had to be spiffed up a bit. Probably a lot of red lead showing and stuff like that. So he had a paint barge go over and paint it out haze gray in a hurry. I would expect that there is a strong possibility that the ship name was painted over in haze gray, and the black ship's name was not repainted in by the time of the visit. There was a tarp to cover the paint job until it dried. Somebody took a photo of the tarp several days before the visit. The bit about the ship name stenciled on the hat is the part that tells me that the writer didn't really do the proper homework. I'm guessing maybe he had seen other navies who do display the ship's name on their hats and made an improper projection. Then somebody makes up this story about the email, somebody comes up with a photo of the tarp, and it gets traction.
The reason why this sounds within the realm of possibility is that we have had so many other stories where stupid allegations have gotten legs before they could be debunked.

I tend to agree with you that this is not much of a story. The actual email from somebody in the Navy has been making the rounds. In my quick scan I believe it said something like "keep the McCain out of sight". I would imagine that it involved lower-level people as you have postulated.
We all know that Trump is petty. Regardless of the source of the orders this doesn't change much.

Do you have a link to the email? My Internet search skills are not the equal of Almadenowl's, and I have not been able to find it.

I have also not been able to find the exact location of Wasp and McCain on the day of Trump's visit.

Not the email text, but the Navy responds directly to this and says an email was sent.

Quote:"A request was made to the U.S. Navy to minimize the visibility of USS John S. McCain, however, all ships remained in their normal configuration during the President's visit," Rear Admiral Charlie Brown, chief of information, said in a statement to NBC News.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/navy-acknowledges-request-was-made-hide-uss-john-s-mccain-n1012731

I'm finding this kerfluffle fairly confusing and perhaps a tad amusing..... let's clarify something, shall we? This *is* the same John McCain the media ass-raped in 2008, right?

(06-02-2019 04:04 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 07:40 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-30-2019 11:42 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-30-2019 10:48 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-30-2019 10:38 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  "White House official" is a nebulous term that could be used to describe literally hundreds if not thousands of people, most of them lower level lackeys. The fact the this "official" was talking with a lower-level Navy person is a dead giveaway that it was one of the lower level lackeys. SecDef and anyone close to him aren't interested in talking to LTJG Jones, and LTJG Jones's commanding officer is damned determined that no such conversation take place. That's just not how it works. Could the question have been raised as one of about a thousand details that advance teams go over? Absolutely. For one thing, with repair crews crawling all over it, the McCain is probably pretty damned unsightly.
As far as the email, what CNN is produced is more sources of the same rumor, but no email. A rumor does not become true because more people repeat it.
Here's my best guess at what happened. There was probably a discussion of what to do with McCain at some point during the advance visit. It was a very low level discussion and was quickly quashed by higher ups. Some staff puke at COMNAVFORJAPAN probably decided that it looked like crap and it had to be spiffed up a bit. Probably a lot of red lead showing and stuff like that. So he had a paint barge go over and paint it out haze gray in a hurry. I would expect that there is a strong possibility that the ship name was painted over in haze gray, and the black ship's name was not repainted in by the time of the visit. There was a tarp to cover the paint job until it dried. Somebody took a photo of the tarp several days before the visit. The bit about the ship name stenciled on the hat is the part that tells me that the writer didn't really do the proper homework. I'm guessing maybe he had seen other navies who do display the ship's name on their hats and made an improper projection. Then somebody makes up this story about the email, somebody comes up with a photo of the tarp, and it gets traction.
The reason why this sounds within the realm of possibility is that we have had so many other stories where stupid allegations have gotten legs before they could be debunked.

I tend to agree with you that this is not much of a story. The actual email from somebody in the Navy has been making the rounds. In my quick scan I believe it said something like "keep the McCain out of sight". I would imagine that it involved lower-level people as you have postulated.
We all know that Trump is petty. Regardless of the source of the orders this doesn't change much.

Do you have a link to the email? My Internet search skills are not the equal of Almadenowl's, and I have not been able to find it.

I have also not been able to find the exact location of Wasp and McCain on the day of Trump's visit.

Not the email text, but the Navy responds directly to this and says an email was sent.

Quote:"A request was made to the U.S. Navy to minimize the visibility of USS John S. McCain, however, all ships remained in their normal configuration during the President's visit," Rear Admiral Charlie Brown, chief of information, said in a statement to NBC News.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/navy-acknowledges-request-was-made-hide-uss-john-s-mccain-n1012731

I'm finding this kerfluffle fairly confusing and perhaps a tad amusing..... let's clarify something, shall we? This *is* the same John McCain the media ass-raped in 2008, right?

(06-02-2019 05:13 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-02-2019 04:04 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 07:40 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-30-2019 11:42 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-30-2019 10:48 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  I tend to agree with you that this is not much of a story. The actual email from somebody in the Navy has been making the rounds. In my quick scan I believe it said something like "keep the McCain out of sight". I would imagine that it involved lower-level people as you have postulated.
We all know that Trump is petty. Regardless of the source of the orders this doesn't change much.

Do you have a link to the email? My Internet search skills are not the equal of Almadenowl's, and I have not been able to find it.

I have also not been able to find the exact location of Wasp and McCain on the day of Trump's visit.

Not the email text, but the Navy responds directly to this and says an email was sent.

Quote:"A request was made to the U.S. Navy to minimize the visibility of USS John S. McCain, however, all ships remained in their normal configuration during the President's visit," Rear Admiral Charlie Brown, chief of information, said in a statement to NBC News.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/navy-acknowledges-request-was-made-hide-uss-john-s-mccain-n1012731

I'm finding this kerfluffle fairly confusing and perhaps a tad amusing..... let's clarify something, shall we? This *is* the same John McCain the media ass-raped in 2008, right?

How is the media’s coverage of McCain in 2008 relevant to this current story?

(06-02-2019 04:30 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 09:22 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 08:19 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 07:09 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Does the stock market get him re-elected, or jobs? Does a tariff on China and Mexico hurt jobs here?

Certainly the stock market plays a large part in getting him re-elected. And the tariffs are definitely hurting the market. Jobs play a part as well but the market is a big deal when it comes to re-election.

Well, I depend on my retirement funds to live on. Stock Market would have to return to election day, 2016 levels(18,332.74), to make me wonder about him. Democrats can only finger point, but none of their policies are going to help me. Name one single thing that one single Democratic candidate wants to do that will help me.

OTOH, more people with jobs and better futures, with more take home - that might get their attention.

Going to be interesting.

If Trump wins re-election, do you think the left will continue their investigations/impeachment stuff, or will they turn to governing? Seems like maybe it will be time to give up the hysteria - it didn't work ...twice.

I always go back and forth about how I feel when I hear people say that they are going to vote based on what is going to be better for them, as opposed for society as a whole.

(06-03-2019 10:53 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(06-02-2019 04:30 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 09:22 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 08:19 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 07:09 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Does the stock market get him re-elected, or jobs? Does a tariff on China and Mexico hurt jobs here?

Certainly the stock market plays a large part in getting him re-elected. And the tariffs are definitely hurting the market. Jobs play a part as well but the market is a big deal when it comes to re-election.

Well, I depend on my retirement funds to live on. Stock Market would have to return to election day, 2016 levels(18,332.74), to make me wonder about him. Democrats can only finger point, but none of their policies are going to help me. Name one single thing that one single Democratic candidate wants to do that will help me.

OTOH, more people with jobs and better futures, with more take home - that might get their attention.

Going to be interesting.

If Trump wins re-election, do you think the left will continue their investigations/impeachment stuff, or will they turn to governing? Seems like maybe it will be time to give up the hysteria - it didn't work ...twice.

I always go back and forth about how I feel when I hear people say that they are going to vote based on what is going to be better for them, as opposed for society as a whole.

The smaller the role of government, the more likely those are to align.

Which candidates (if any) are most likely to reduce the role of government as a dispenser of rents?

(06-03-2019 10:53 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(06-02-2019 04:30 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 09:22 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 08:19 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 07:09 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Does the stock market get him re-elected, or jobs? Does a tariff on China and Mexico hurt jobs here?

Certainly the stock market plays a large part in getting him re-elected. And the tariffs are definitely hurting the market. Jobs play a part as well but the market is a big deal when it comes to re-election.

Well, I depend on my retirement funds to live on. Stock Market would have to return to election day, 2016 levels(18,332.74), to make me wonder about him. Democrats can only finger point, but none of their policies are going to help me. Name one single thing that one single Democratic candidate wants to do that will help me.

OTOH, more people with jobs and better futures, with more take home - that might get their attention.

Going to be interesting.

If Trump wins re-election, do you think the left will continue their investigations/impeachment stuff, or will they turn to governing? Seems like maybe it will be time to give up the hysteria - it didn't work ...twice.

I always go back and forth about how I feel when I hear people say that they are going to vote based on what is going to be better for them, as opposed for society as a whole.

The smaller the role of government, the more likely those are to align.

Which candidates (if any) are most likely to reduce the role of government as a dispenser of rents?

(06-03-2019 11:05 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(06-03-2019 10:53 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(06-02-2019 04:30 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 09:22 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 08:19 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Certainly the stock market plays a large part in getting him re-elected. And the tariffs are definitely hurting the market. Jobs play a part as well but the market is a big deal when it comes to re-election.

Well, I depend on my retirement funds to live on. Stock Market would have to return to election day, 2016 levels(18,332.74), to make me wonder about him. Democrats can only finger point, but none of their policies are going to help me. Name one single thing that one single Democratic candidate wants to do that will help me.

OTOH, more people with jobs and better futures, with more take home - that might get their attention.

Going to be interesting.

If Trump wins re-election, do you think the left will continue their investigations/impeachment stuff, or will they turn to governing? Seems like maybe it will be time to give up the hysteria - it didn't work ...twice.

I always go back and forth about how I feel when I hear people say that they are going to vote based on what is going to be better for them, as opposed for society as a whole.

The smaller the role of government, the more likely those are to align.

Which candidates (if any) are most likely to reduce the role of government as a dispenser of rents?

To an extent, right? At a minimum, government plays a very important role in maintaining and strengthening society through infrastructure and safety services. I do not see a world of private roads and first responder services as being a better one.

So if we got to a point where government's role was moot, I don't think society and a person's self-interest would be aligned at all.

(06-03-2019 11:47 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(06-03-2019 11:05 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(06-03-2019 10:53 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  The smaller the role of government, the more likely those are to align.
Which candidates (if any) are most likely to reduce the role of government as a dispenser of rents?

To an extent, right? At a minimum, government plays a very important role in maintaining and strengthening society through infrastructure and safety services. I do not see a world of private roads and first responder services as being a better one.
So if we got to a point where government's role was moot, I don't think society and a person's self-interest would be aligned at all.

Well sure, and ordinary physics does not apply to the primordial singularity of the Big Bang. But in the world we actually live in, the proposition that you bolded is at least as sound as Newton's Laws of Motion.
Equating caution about the role of government with lack of government seems at least as disingenuous as the much-derided labeling of redistributionist/collectivist ideas as "socialist" -- especially since the proponents of the latter are themselves calling it socialist.

(06-03-2019 10:53 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(06-02-2019 04:30 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 09:22 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 08:19 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 07:09 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Does the stock market get him re-elected, or jobs? Does a tariff on China and Mexico hurt jobs here?

Certainly the stock market plays a large part in getting him re-elected. And the tariffs are definitely hurting the market. Jobs play a part as well but the market is a big deal when it comes to re-election.

Well, I depend on my retirement funds to live on. Stock Market would have to return to election day, 2016 levels(18,332.74), to make me wonder about him. Democrats can only finger point, but none of their policies are going to help me. Name one single thing that one single Democratic candidate wants to do that will help me.

OTOH, more people with jobs and better futures, with more take home - that might get their attention.

Going to be interesting.

If Trump wins re-election, do you think the left will continue their investigations/impeachment stuff, or will they turn to governing? Seems like maybe it will be time to give up the hysteria - it didn't work ...twice.

I always go back and forth about how I feel when I hear people say that they are going to vote based on what is going to be better for them, as opposed for society as a whole.

The smaller the role of government, the more likely those are to align.

Which candidates (if any) are most likely to reduce the role of government as a dispenser of rents?

(06-04-2019 08:15 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Steele to testify

"In UK court filings, Steele has admitted that he was hired to produce a dossier that his client could use to challenge the results of the 2016 presidential election. According to State Department documents declassified through a Freedom of Information Act request, Steele told State Department official Kathleen Kavalec that his client was eager to see the dossier become public before the 2016 election."

(06-04-2019 08:30 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-04-2019 08:15 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Steele to testify

"In UK court filings, Steele has admitted that he was hired to produce a dossier that his client could use to challenge the results of the 2016 presidential election. According to State Department documents declassified through a Freedom of Information Act request, Steele told State Department official Kathleen Kavalec that his client was eager to see the dossier become public before the 2016 election."

I'm glad. I want to see this put to rest one way or another.

(06-04-2019 08:30 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-04-2019 08:15 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Steele to testify
"In UK court filings, Steele has admitted that he was hired to produce a dossier that his client could use to challenge the results of the 2016 presidential election. According to State Department documents declassified through a Freedom of Information Act request, Steele told State Department official Kathleen Kavalec that his client was eager to see the dossier become public before the 2016 election."

I'm glad. I want to see this put to rest one way or another.