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RE: Trump Administration - Owl 69/70/75 - 04-07-2019 11:38 AM

Tell me this. I keep hearing how "every president has released his tax returns for over 40 years." Ok, so out of all those tax returns, what is the most significant piece of information that has ever been revealed in any of them?

I don't remember, either.

RE: Trump Administration - OptimisticOwl - 04-07-2019 12:52 PM

(04-07-2019 10:25 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 10:05 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 09:43 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 09:22 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 09:07 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  That's what I thought. Y'all have no idea.
I know and you know. Nothing, But they have no clue.
They don't need a clue. They are just following the lead of the cheerleaders, who also have no clue.
It would be nice to have a clear picture as to potential conflicts of interest of our chief executive both on a domestic and international level. Especially as this chief executive has broken with tradition by not insulating himself from his businesses.
Seems like the issue of conflicts of interest has been determined to be of no importance to Trump supporters.

But tax returns won't tell you that.

What you need are Trump’s balance sheet and the balance sheets of every enterprise in which he has an interest.

For example, he may be a 50/50 partner in something called “Putin-Trump Enterprises, Inc, but if there is no income from it, it will not show up on his tax returns.

RE: Trump Administration - georgewebb - 04-07-2019 01:07 PM

(04-07-2019 11:38 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Tell me this. I keep hearing how "every president has released his tax returns for over 40 years." Ok, so out of all those tax returns, what is the most significant piece of information that has ever been revealed in any of them?

Bill Clinton's underwear donation.

RE: Trump Administration - Rice93 - 04-07-2019 01:17 PM

(04-07-2019 11:18 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 10:25 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 10:05 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 09:43 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 09:22 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I know and you know. Nothing, But they have no clue.
They don't need a clue. They are just following the lead of the cheerleaders, who also have no clue.
It would be nice to have a clear picture as to potential conflicts of interest of our chief executive both on a domestic and international level. Especially as this chief executive has broken with tradition by not insulating himself from his businesses.
Seems like the issue of conflicts of interest has been determined to be of no importance to Trump supporters.

But tax returns won't tell you that.

Fie on your "logic"!

From what I have read from tax specialists, a review of Trump's returns may or may not shed significant light on the intricacies of his various businesses. Most, though, see it an an important initial step in shedding clarity on this situation.

You either start somewhere or ignore the conflict of interest issue.

RE: Trump Administration - Owl 69/70/75 - 04-07-2019 01:30 PM

(04-07-2019 01:17 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 11:18 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 10:25 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 10:05 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 09:43 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  They don't need a clue. They are just following the lead of the cheerleaders, who also have no clue.
It would be nice to have a clear picture as to potential conflicts of interest of our chief executive both on a domestic and international level. Especially as this chief executive has broken with tradition by not insulating himself from his businesses.
Seems like the issue of conflicts of interest has been determined to be of no importance to Trump supporters.
But tax returns won't tell you that.
Fie on your "logic"!
From what I have read from tax specialists, a review of Trump's returns may or may not shed significant light on the intricacies of his various businesses. Most, though, see it an an important initial step in shedding clarity on this situation.
You either start somewhere or ignore the conflict of interest issue.

Texas law says I can't call myself a tax specialist, but I have prepared about 50 returns a year for about 40 years, and I say bet on the may not. This is a stupid place to start. But I think that's what democrats want, just to hassle and harass as much as possible. I think they are getting dangerously close to pushing this too far and igniting a massive backlash. But they've gone all in on this, and may not be able to back off now.

RE: Trump Administration - tanqtonic - 04-07-2019 01:46 PM

(04-07-2019 01:17 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 11:18 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 10:25 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 10:05 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 09:43 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  They don't need a clue. They are just following the lead of the cheerleaders, who also have no clue.
It would be nice to have a clear picture as to potential conflicts of interest of our chief executive both on a domestic and international level. Especially as this chief executive has broken with tradition by not insulating himself from his businesses.
Seems like the issue of conflicts of interest has been determined to be of no importance to Trump supporters.

But tax returns won't tell you that.

Fie on your "logic"!

From what I have read from tax specialists, a review of Trump's returns may or may not shed significant light on the intricacies of his various businesses. Most, though, see it an an important initial step in shedding clarity on this situation.

You either start somewhere or ignore the conflict of interest issue.

All that can be ascertained is a bottom line. There really is no substitute in any degree for balance sheets and income statements.

Tax returns (even with included entities) shed as close to zero as one can imaginably get to a picture. Even less than that on 'intricacies.

But I guess the rhetoric weighs more than the practical aspects with some. Even on this board.

'first step in shedding clarity' ----- to use a 'l33t' gamer term: double LOLZ.

RE: Trump Administration - Rice93 - 04-07-2019 01:55 PM

[quote='tanqtonic' pid='16036899' dateline='1554662797']
Quote:'first step in shedding clarity' ----- to use a 'l33t' gamer term: double LOLZ.

I have absolutely no clue what you're saying here. I mean... I get "double LOLZ" but not the other stuff.

RE: Trump Administration - Rice93 - 04-07-2019 02:03 PM

(04-07-2019 01:46 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 01:17 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 11:18 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 10:25 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 10:05 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  It would be nice to have a clear picture as to potential conflicts of interest of our chief executive both on a domestic and international level. Especially as this chief executive has broken with tradition by not insulating himself from his businesses.
Seems like the issue of conflicts of interest has been determined to be of no importance to Trump supporters.

But tax returns won't tell you that.

Fie on your "logic"!

From what I have read from tax specialists, a review of Trump's returns may or may not shed significant light on the intricacies of his various businesses. Most, though, see it an an important initial step in shedding clarity on this situation.

You either start somewhere or ignore the conflict of interest issue.

All that can be ascertained is a bottom line. There really is no substitute in any degree for balance sheets and income statements.

Tax returns (even with included entities) shed as close to zero as one can imaginably get to a picture. Even less than that on 'intricacies.

But I guess the rhetoric weighs more than the practical aspects with some. Even on this board.

'first step in shedding clarity' ----- to use a 'l33t' gamer term: double LOLZ.

So is it worth looking into Trump's businesses and the possibility of conflicts of interest (whether or not release of his tax returns are included within this review)? Are you good with his companies accepting payments both from the United States as well as foreign governments? Nothing to see here?

RE: Trump Administration - tanqtonic - 04-07-2019 02:06 PM

(04-07-2019 02:03 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 01:46 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 01:17 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 11:18 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 10:25 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  But tax returns won't tell you that.

Fie on your "logic"!

From what I have read from tax specialists, a review of Trump's returns may or may not shed significant light on the intricacies of his various businesses. Most, though, see it an an important initial step in shedding clarity on this situation.

You either start somewhere or ignore the conflict of interest issue.

All that can be ascertained is a bottom line. There really is no substitute in any degree for balance sheets and income statements.

Tax returns (even with included entities) shed as close to zero as one can imaginably get to a picture. Even less than that on 'intricacies.

But I guess the rhetoric weighs more than the practical aspects with some. Even on this board.

'first step in shedding clarity' ----- to use a 'l33t' gamer term: double LOLZ.

So is it worth looking into Trump's businesses and the possibility of conflicts of interest (whether or not release of his tax returns are included within this review)? Are you good with his companies accepting payments both from the United States as well as foreign governments? Nothing to see here?

I have to balance that concern against the obvious hard-on that the 'get Trump no matter what it takes' segment has.

Too bad the latter is such a huge amount to have to get past at this point in time, isnt it?

I guess your side of the fence has now substituted the "exactness of inquiry" that it already had ('enough smoke') for true snipe hunts now. Truly getting to the 'In Search of Ancient Aliens' level presently.....

As for 'nothing to see here' -- I dont have a fing clue. Nor does anyone else. And that seems to be the appropriate level of trigger to set up another inquiry for y'all. Got it.

What is less than 'enough smoke for me'? Apparent answer for the present: well lets just get his tax records for ***** n giggles. Does that sound about right to you? It should, that is what you are apparently trying to defend here. Yay!

RE: Trump Administration - Rice93 - 04-07-2019 02:12 PM

(04-07-2019 02:06 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 02:03 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 01:46 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 01:17 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 11:18 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  Fie on your "logic"!

From what I have read from tax specialists, a review of Trump's returns may or may not shed significant light on the intricacies of his various businesses. Most, though, see it an an important initial step in shedding clarity on this situation.

You either start somewhere or ignore the conflict of interest issue.

All that can be ascertained is a bottom line. There really is no substitute in any degree for balance sheets and income statements.

Tax returns (even with included entities) shed as close to zero as one can imaginably get to a picture. Even less than that on 'intricacies.

But I guess the rhetoric weighs more than the practical aspects with some. Even on this board.

'first step in shedding clarity' ----- to use a 'l33t' gamer term: double LOLZ.

So is it worth looking into Trump's businesses and the possibility of conflicts of interest (whether or not release of his tax returns are included within this review)? Are you good with his companies accepting payments both from the United States as well as foreign governments? Nothing to see here?

I have to balance that concern against the obvious hard-on that the 'get Trump no matter what it takes' segment has.

Too bad the latter is such a huge amount to have to get past at this point in time, isnt it?

So you do have a concern? Or no?

Is it reasonable for a politician to maintain a role in his business interests while serving the role of the chief executive of our country? Should the president and his family be monetizing the office of the presidency?

I understand that you are pissed that so many would love to see Trump go down in flames. Separating out that anger... is the above OK with you or not?

RE: Trump Administration - Owl 69/70/75 - 04-07-2019 02:43 PM

(04-07-2019 02:12 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Is it reasonable for a politician to maintain a role in his business interests while serving the role of the chief executive of our country? Should the president and his family be monetizing the office of the presidency?

I think that was pretty much the original concept. The government would be run by citizen-patriots. Frankly, I think we'd be better off to go back there.

Quote:I understand that you are pissed that so many would love to see Trump go down in flames. Separating out that anger... is the above OK with you or not?

I don't really have a big problem with it. How is continuing to run your business while president any worse than leveraging your political office to make millions in other ways? I think the folks who come to Washington to take on a $175,000 a year job, stay there for 40 years, and retire worth millions, are far more problematic than someone who simply continues a business he had ongoing before.

RE: Trump Administration - Rice93 - 04-07-2019 03:08 PM

(04-07-2019 02:43 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 02:12 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Is it reasonable for a politician to maintain a role in his business interests while serving the role of the chief executive of our country? Should the president and his family be monetizing the office of the presidency?

I think that was pretty much the original concept. The government would be run by citizen-patriots. Frankly, I think we'd be better off to go back there.

Quote:I understand that you are pissed that so many would love to see Trump go down in flames. Separating out that anger... is the above OK with you or not?

I don't really have a big problem with it. How is continuing to run your business while president any worse than leveraging your political office to make millions n other ways?

Neither is ideal. How did Obama, GWB, Clinton, GW41 leverage the office to make millions while in office? Certainly they all made boatloads of cash after they left office.

I'm not a fan of the President having business interests that may be impacted by the decisions he makes on a daily basis. That's why previous Presidents insulated themselves against this possibility. Trump didn't.

RE: Trump Administration - tanqtonic - 04-07-2019 03:16 PM

(04-07-2019 02:12 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 02:06 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 02:03 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 01:46 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 01:17 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  From what I have read from tax specialists, a review of Trump's returns may or may not shed significant light on the intricacies of his various businesses. Most, though, see it an an important initial step in shedding clarity on this situation.

You either start somewhere or ignore the conflict of interest issue.

All that can be ascertained is a bottom line. There really is no substitute in any degree for balance sheets and income statements.

Tax returns (even with included entities) shed as close to zero as one can imaginably get to a picture. Even less than that on 'intricacies.

But I guess the rhetoric weighs more than the practical aspects with some. Even on this board.

'first step in shedding clarity' ----- to use a 'l33t' gamer term: double LOLZ.

So is it worth looking into Trump's businesses and the possibility of conflicts of interest (whether or not release of his tax returns are included within this review)? Are you good with his companies accepting payments both from the United States as well as foreign governments? Nothing to see here?

I have to balance that concern against the obvious hard-on that the 'get Trump no matter what it takes' segment has.

Too bad the latter is such a huge amount to have to get past at this point in time, isnt it?

So you do have a concern? Or no?

As I said, I have no fing clue what they 'might yield'. But, being somewhat schooled in the rule of law, the basic predicate is that something of that level intrusion is why the fing 4th Amendment is in place.

Give me a good reason, sure, open 'em up.

So, give me a good reason.

But all you can sputter, when you drill down to it, is nothing that even rises to 'gee this is somewhat near (even in the same ballpark) of anything related to a whiff of probable cause'. Funny that. All you can say is 'gee it sounds like a wonderful idea to go on a fing snipe hunt' when you distill it down.

For me, give me a reason. Your 'reason' is pretty fing piss poor to obviate the very tangible restrictions that a normal rule of law dictates. But so be it.

Quote:Is it reasonable for a politician to maintain a role in his business interests while serving the role of the chief executive of our country?

Absent probable cause of bad activity, why not? May not be in 'good form', but that seems to be level that you have gotten to in your quest. I guess in your world 'not good form == perfectly good reason to rip through every financial.' Have you even stopped to think about that?

Quote:I understand that you are pissed that so many would love to see Trump go down in flames. Separating out that anger... is the above OK with you or not?

What other normal 4th amendment restrictions should we overlook in your perfect world? What other lines of inquiry should we open up to satisfy your snipe hunt? You are perfectly okay with removing that level of protection for Trump in this case. What other things should we submit him to absent any probable cause or any hint of that? Please do tell.

Better yet, what other public officials should we require by penalty of law to submit their financials in this way?

Look I understand that people like you would spurt with joy if Trump were removed. I dont have a problem with that per se. I do have a problem with all the things that people like you seemingly overlook in their holy crusade to do so.

RE: Trump Administration - tanqtonic - 04-07-2019 03:18 PM

(04-07-2019 03:08 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 02:43 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 02:12 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Is it reasonable for a politician to maintain a role in his business interests while serving the role of the chief executive of our country? Should the president and his family be monetizing the office of the presidency?

I think that was pretty much the original concept. The government would be run by citizen-patriots. Frankly, I think we'd be better off to go back there.

Quote:I understand that you are pissed that so many would love to see Trump go down in flames. Separating out that anger... is the above OK with you or not?

I don't really have a big problem with it. How is continuing to run your business while president any worse than leveraging your political office to make millions n other ways?

Neither is ideal. How did Obama, GWB, Clinton, GW41 leverage the office to make millions while in office? Certainly they all made boatloads of cash after they left office.

I'm not a fan of the President having business interests that may be impacted by the decisions he makes on a daily basis. That's why previous Presidents insulated themselves against this possibility. Trump didn't.

So your answer is to rip them out of him at the expense of certain portions of the rule of law. Good for you.

RE: Trump Administration - Rice93 - 04-07-2019 03:50 PM

(04-07-2019 03:16 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
Quote:Is it reasonable for a politician to maintain a role in his business interests while serving the role of the chief executive of our country?

Absent probable cause of bad activity, why not? May not be in 'good form', but that seems to be level that you have gotten to in your quest. I guess in your world 'not good form == perfectly good reason to rip through every financial.' Have you even stopped to think about that?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2018/10/18/president-trump-has-massive-conflict-interest-saudi-arabia/?utm_term=.2528a8060bcd

Not sure if this meets your standard of probable cause of bad activity, however this is the sort of thing that concerns me greatly.

RE: Trump Administration - Rice93 - 04-07-2019 03:55 PM

[quote='tanqtonic' pid='16037036' dateline='1554668280']
Quote:So your answer is to rip them out of him at the expense of certain portions of the rule of law. Good for you.

I'm just expecting him to meet the standard set by previous presidents regarding insulating the office against conflicts of interest. "Ripping them out of him at the expense of the rule of law" is somewhat hyperbolic, IMO.

RE: Trump Administration - Owl 69/70/75 - 04-07-2019 04:19 PM

(04-07-2019 03:08 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 02:43 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 02:12 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Is it reasonable for a politician to maintain a role in his business interests while serving the role of the chief executive of our country? Should the president and his family be monetizing the office of the presidency?
I think that was pretty much the original concept. The government would be run by citizen-patriots. Frankly, I think we'd be better off to go back there.
Quote:I understand that you are pissed that so many would love to see Trump go down in flames. Separating out that anger... is the above OK with you or not?
I don't really have a big problem with it. How is continuing to run your business while president any worse than leveraging your political office to make millions n other ways?
Neither is ideal. How did Obama, GWB, Clinton, GW41 leverage the office to make millions while in office? Certainly they all made boatloads of cash after they left office.

Umm, that's how. Actually Obama made multi-millions after entering politics but before the white house. I'd like to know more about that.

And I'm sure there are enough improprieties with the Clintons to fill a few expose books.

The Bushes both had big money before the white house and I'm not sure that either one truly made much off the presidency.

Quote:I'm not a fan of the President having business interests that may be impacted by the decisions he makes on a daily basis. That's why previous Presidents insulated themselves against this possibility. Trump didn't.

Nobody truly insulates himself. I think Trump has probably made fewer decisions to impact his business interests favorably the most.

RE: Trump Administration - Rice93 - 04-07-2019 04:41 PM

(04-07-2019 04:19 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 03:08 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 02:43 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 02:12 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Is it reasonable for a politician to maintain a role in his business interests while serving the role of the chief executive of our country? Should the president and his family be monetizing the office of the presidency?
I think that was pretty much the original concept. The government would be run by citizen-patriots. Frankly, I think we'd be better off to go back there.
Quote:I understand that you are pissed that so many would love to see Trump go down in flames. Separating out that anger... is the above OK with you or not?
I don't really have a big problem with it. How is continuing to run your business while president any worse than leveraging your political office to make millions n other ways?
Neither is ideal. How did Obama, GWB, Clinton, GW41 leverage the office to make millions while in office? Certainly they all made boatloads of cash after they left office.

Umm, that's how. Actually Obama made multi-millions after entering politics but before the white house. I'd like to know more about that.

There’s a massive difference between making millions off of speaking engagements and book deals post-presidency versus potentially increasing your personal wealth directly based on decisions made as president.

RE: Trump Administration - RiceLad15 - 04-07-2019 04:48 PM

(04-07-2019 04:19 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 03:08 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 02:43 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-07-2019 02:12 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Is it reasonable for a politician to maintain a role in his business interests while serving the role of the chief executive of our country? Should the president and his family be monetizing the office of the presidency?
I think that was pretty much the original concept. The government would be run by citizen-patriots. Frankly, I think we'd be better off to go back there.
Quote:I understand that you are pissed that so many would love to see Trump go down in flames. Separating out that anger... is the above OK with you or not?
I don't really have a big problem with it. How is continuing to run your business while president any worse than leveraging your political office to make millions n other ways?
Neither is ideal. How did Obama, GWB, Clinton, GW41 leverage the office to make millions while in office? Certainly they all made boatloads of cash after they left office.

Umm, that's how. Actually Obama made multi-millions after entering politics but before the white house. I'd like to know more about that.

And I'm sure there are enough improprieties with the Clintons to fill a few expose books.

The Bushes both had big money before the white house and I'm not sure that either one truly made much off the presidency.

Quote:I'm not a fan of the President having business interests that may be impacted by the decisions he makes on a daily basis. That's why previous Presidents insulated themselves against this possibility. Trump didn't.

Nobody truly insulates himself. I think Trump has probably made fewer decisions to impact his business interests favorably the most.

Between the FBI headquarters decision, his frequent trips to Mar A Lago, and all of the reporting regarding foreign dignitaries and lobbyists who specifically stay at Trump hotel to curry favor, Trump has unquestionably the most real and prevalent conflicts of interests than any of the recent presidents. And we see how those conflicts are leading to his personal enrichment in office because people are trying to stroke his ego through the best way possible - giving him money.

RE: Trump Administration - Owl 69/70/75 - 04-07-2019 05:06 PM

(04-07-2019 04:48 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Between the FBI headquarters decision, his frequent trips to Mar A Lago, and all of the reporting regarding foreign dignitaries and lobbyists who specifically stay at Trump hotel to curry favor, Trump has unquestionably the most real and prevalent conflicts of interests than any of the recent presidents. And we see how those conflicts are leading to his personal enrichment in office because people are trying to stroke his ego through the best way possible - giving him money.

I don't see any of those as particularly being conflicts of interest. I guess you can yell and scream "conflict of interest" to you heart's content. But I'm not sure there is any material conflict arising from transactions in the normal course of business. Part of it is that we've just had so many career politicians that it's a whole different case to have a businessman. I kind of think some of it is refreshing.

I don't think the Trump hotel is going empty if those dignitaries don't stay there, and I imagine a lot of them would stay there no matter who was president. It's a nice hotel in a particularly good location. It's probably less of a conflict of interest for them to stay there than in the Lincoln bedroom.