CSNbbs
Trump Administration - Printable Version

+- CSNbbs (https://csnbbs.com)
+-- Forum: Active Boards (/forum-769.html)
+--- Forum: AACbbs (/forum-460.html)
+---- Forum: Members (/forum-401.html)
+----- Forum: Rice (/forum-444.html)
+------ Forum: Rice Archives (/forum-640.html)
+------ Thread: Trump Administration (/thread-797972.html)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 488 489 490 491 492 493 494 495 496 497 498 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 525 526 527 528 529 530 531 532 533 534 535 536 537 538 539 540 541 542 543 544 545 546 547 548 549 550 551 552 553 554 555 556 557 558 559 560 561 562 563 564 565 566 567 568 569 570 571 572 573 574 575 576 577 578 579 580 581 582 583 584 585 586 587 588 589 590 591 592 593 594 595 596 597 598 599 600 601 602 603 604 605 606 607 608 609 610 611 612 613 614 615 616 617 618 619 620 621 622 623 624 625 626 627 628 629 630 631 632 633 634 635 636 637 638 639 640 641 642 643 644 645 646 647 648 649 650 651 652 653 654 655 656


RE: Trump Administration - OldOwlNewHeel2 - 02-06-2017 11:01 AM

(02-05-2017 10:23 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(02-05-2017 09:02 PM)OldOwlNewHeel2 Wrote:  
(02-05-2017 08:06 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(02-05-2017 05:46 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(02-05-2017 04:54 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I would venture to say that neither Richard Spencer nor David Duke would need to wait on any dog whistles before speaking up.

You're right that they don't need to. But that they have responded directly to some of the actions by the Trump administration. That is the key.

Lets sum this up:

Trump makes a statement
Spencer comments on that statement
Therefore there must be intentional dog whistles in Trump's statement....

With all due respect there is a *major* lack of substance and/or backing in that chain.

I guess anytime Spencer, or Duke, or Westboro (or anybody like that) comments on anything that Trump did or said, we will pretty much always expect from this time going forward that it is "obviously" dog whistles being blown intentionally expressly for that purpose; glad I have that figured out now.

So, setting aside the debate regarding whether this is an appropriate use of the term "dog whistle," RiceLad's larger point remains: Whom, exactly, was Trump trying to please/incite/pander to by conspicuously neglecting to mention "Jews" when addressing the Holocaust?

(Of course, this assumes the oversight was intentional. But, given Trump's apparent belief that Frederick Douglass is still alive, I suppose he might also be ignorant of the fact that the Holocaust involved Jews. If this is the case, well, sure, no dog-whistling is occurring and you win this debate ;-)

Whom, exactly, was Trump Obama trying to please/incite/pander to by conspicuously neglecting to mention "Jews" when addressing the Holocaust directly authoring, instigating a vote, and failing to veto the vote that sold out Israel as his "parting gift"?

Wow, what a dog whistle there......

Quote:Of course, this assumes the oversight and direct actions were intentional.

I ascribe it to an incompetent administration that doesnt seem to rationally know what the hell is going on, or really what do do for that matter (look at the rollout of the immigration fiasco for proof of that lack of competence....)

But, just easier to ascribe it to evil racists like every good liberal seems to want to do for just about every topic, I guess....

Well, I've seen enough arguments on this board to know that it's all over when we reach the, "But, but, but . . . Obama did it, too!" stage, followed by a false equivalence.* Therefore, I will be abstaining from the remainder of this conversation. My final thought is simply this: At some point, Trump deserves to lose the benefit of the doubt. I won't presume to tell you when you should reach that conclusion; I'm only giving my conclusion that when he refuses to denounce David Duke and the KKK, repeatedly re-tweets white supremacists and Pepe the Frog imagery, regurgitates anti-semitic imagery , and chooses the founder of an alt-right, anti-semitic website as his chief advisor, then I have a very hard time believing that his "oversight" on Holocaust Remembrance Day was unintentional. That's enough for me, but I understand that it might not be enough for you. To each his own, I suppose.

*No, I'm not going to waste my time explaining why the concept of false equivalence applies to your Obama/UN comments (I'm also choosing to ignore the inaccuracies in your summary of the facts, but a few of them are exposed here). Someone else can take on that Sisyphean task.


RE: Trump Administration - OptimisticOwl - 02-06-2017 11:37 AM

(02-06-2017 11:01 AM)OldOwlNewHeel2 Wrote:  
(02-05-2017 10:23 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(02-05-2017 09:02 PM)OldOwlNewHeel2 Wrote:  
(02-05-2017 08:06 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(02-05-2017 05:46 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  You're right that they don't need to. But that they have responded directly to some of the actions by the Trump administration. That is the key.

Lets sum this up:

Trump makes a statement
Spencer comments on that statement
Therefore there must be intentional dog whistles in Trump's statement....

With all due respect there is a *major* lack of substance and/or backing in that chain.

I guess anytime Spencer, or Duke, or Westboro (or anybody like that) comments on anything that Trump did or said, we will pretty much always expect from this time going forward that it is "obviously" dog whistles being blown intentionally expressly for that purpose; glad I have that figured out now.

So, setting aside the debate regarding whether this is an appropriate use of the term "dog whistle," RiceLad's larger point remains: Whom, exactly, was Trump trying to please/incite/pander to by conspicuously neglecting to mention "Jews" when addressing the Holocaust?

(Of course, this assumes the oversight was intentional. But, given Trump's apparent belief that Frederick Douglass is still alive, I suppose he might also be ignorant of the fact that the Holocaust involved Jews. If this is the case, well, sure, no dog-whistling is occurring and you win this debate ;-)

Whom, exactly, was Trump Obama trying to please/incite/pander to by conspicuously neglecting to mention "Jews" when addressing the Holocaust directly authoring, instigating a vote, and failing to veto the vote that sold out Israel as his "parting gift"?

Wow, what a dog whistle there......

Quote:Of course, this assumes the oversight and direct actions were intentional.

I ascribe it to an incompetent administration that doesnt seem to rationally know what the hell is going on, or really what do do for that matter (look at the rollout of the immigration fiasco for proof of that lack of competence....)

But, just easier to ascribe it to evil racists like every good liberal seems to want to do for just about every topic, I guess....

Well, I've seen enough arguments on this board to know that it's all over when we reach the, "But, but, but . . . Obama did it, too!" stage, followed by a false equivalence.* Therefore, I will be abstaining from the remainder of this conversation. My final thought is simply this: At some point, Trump deserves to lose the benefit of the doubt. I won't presume to tell you when you should reach that conclusion; I'm only giving my conclusion that when he refuses to denounce David Duke and the KKK, repeatedly re-tweets white supremacists and Pepe the Frog imagery, regurgitates anti-semitic imagery , and chooses the founder of an alt-right, anti-semitic website as his chief advisor, then I have a very hard time believing that his "oversight" on Holocaust Remembrance Day was unintentional. That's enough for me, but I understand that it might not be enough for you. To each his own, I suppose.

*No, I'm not going to waste my time explaining why the concept of false equivalence applies to your Obama/UN comments (I'm also choosing to ignore the inaccuracies in your summary of the facts, but a few of them are exposed here). Someone else can take on that Sisyphean task.

Throw a rock and run away.


RE: Trump Administration - OptimisticOwl - 02-06-2017 12:03 PM

Speaking of dog whistles...

http://dailycaller.com/2017/02/05/casey-...ago-video/

Maybe it is time to stop ascribing every nut who comes out on one side or the other as reacting to double secret codewords?


RE: Trump Administration - RiceLad15 - 02-06-2017 12:05 PM

(02-06-2017 12:03 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Speaking of dog whistles...

http://dailycaller.com/2017/02/05/casey-...ago-video/

Maybe it is time to stop ascribing every nut who comes out on one side or the other as reacting to double secret codewords?

Send me to a 404 page.

Which is really apt for a link about a dog whistle if you think about it. Ha.


RE: Trump Administration - OptimisticOwl - 02-06-2017 12:11 PM

(02-06-2017 12:05 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 12:03 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Speaking of dog whistles...

http://dailycaller.com/2017/02/05/casey-...ago-video/

Maybe it is time to stop ascribing every nut who comes out on one side or the other as reacting to double secret codewords?

Send me to a 404 page.

Which is really apt for a link about a dog whistle if you think about it. Ha.

Try this one:

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/2219318-casey-anthony-spotted-at-anti-trump-protest-in-florida/


FYI, it is a story about Casey Anthony at an anti-Trump protest.

Or just google Casey Anthony, Trump


RE: Trump Administration - RiceLad15 - 02-06-2017 12:17 PM

(02-06-2017 12:11 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 12:05 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 12:03 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Speaking of dog whistles...

http://dailycaller.com/2017/02/05/casey-...ago-video/

Maybe it is time to stop ascribing every nut who comes out on one side or the other as reacting to double secret codewords?

Send me to a 404 page.

Which is really apt for a link about a dog whistle if you think about it. Ha.

Try this one:

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/2219318-casey-anthony-spotted-at-anti-trump-protest-in-florida/


FYI, it is a story about Casey Anthony at an anti-Trump protest.

Or just google Casey Anthony, Trump

What's the dog whistle nature of that? Maybe I'm missing something.


RE: Trump Administration - OptimisticOwl - 02-06-2017 12:23 PM

(02-06-2017 12:17 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 12:11 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 12:05 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 12:03 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Speaking of dog whistles...

http://dailycaller.com/2017/02/05/casey-...ago-video/

Maybe it is time to stop ascribing every nut who comes out on one side or the other as reacting to double secret codewords?

Send me to a 404 page.

Which is really apt for a link about a dog whistle if you think about it. Ha.

Try this one:

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/2219318-casey-anthony-spotted-at-anti-trump-protest-in-florida/


FYI, it is a story about Casey Anthony at an anti-Trump protest.

Or just google Casey Anthony, Trump

What's the dog whistle nature of that? Maybe I'm missing something.

yes, indeed you are.

People speaking up and supporting one side of a debate do not characterize the debate. Richard what's-his-name and Casey Anthony do not embody the nature of their side of the Trump debate, and neither is responding to some intentionally hidden signal. Either that, or both are. Pick one.

Nuts of all sorts had a team to root for in the SB, that does not mean the team they supported matched their nutty values.


RE: Trump Administration - RiceLad15 - 02-06-2017 12:44 PM

(02-06-2017 12:23 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 12:17 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 12:11 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 12:05 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 12:03 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Speaking of dog whistles...

http://dailycaller.com/2017/02/05/casey-...ago-video/

Maybe it is time to stop ascribing every nut who comes out on one side or the other as reacting to double secret codewords?

Send me to a 404 page.

Which is really apt for a link about a dog whistle if you think about it. Ha.

Try this one:

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/2219318-casey-anthony-spotted-at-anti-trump-protest-in-florida/


FYI, it is a story about Casey Anthony at an anti-Trump protest.

Or just google Casey Anthony, Trump

What's the dog whistle nature of that? Maybe I'm missing something.

yes, indeed you are.

People speaking up and supporting one side of a debate do not characterize the debate. Richard what's-his-name and Casey Anthony do not embody the nature of their side of the Trump debate, and neither is responding to some intentionally hidden signal. Either that, or both are. Pick one.

Nuts of all sorts had a team to root for in the SB, that does not mean the team they supported matched their nutty values.

[Image: v8ccqht.jpg]


RE: Trump Administration - georgewebb - 02-06-2017 12:57 PM

(02-06-2017 11:01 AM)OldOwlNewHeel2 Wrote:  ...repeatedly re-tweets white supremacists and Pepe the Frog imagery, ...


http://dailycaller.com/2016/09/14/heres-how-two-twitter-pranksters-convinced-the-world-that-pepe-the-frog-meme-is-just-a-front-for-white-nationalism/


RE: Trump Administration - OptimisticOwl - 02-06-2017 01:07 PM

(02-06-2017 12:44 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 12:23 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 12:17 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 12:11 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 12:05 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Send me to a 404 page.

Which is really apt for a link about a dog whistle if you think about it. Ha.

Try this one:

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/2219318-casey-anthony-spotted-at-anti-trump-protest-in-florida/


FYI, it is a story about Casey Anthony at an anti-Trump protest.

Or just google Casey Anthony, Trump

What's the dog whistle nature of that? Maybe I'm missing something.

yes, indeed you are.

People speaking up and supporting one side of a debate do not characterize the debate. Richard what's-his-name and Casey Anthony do not embody the nature of their side of the Trump debate, and neither is responding to some intentionally hidden signal. Either that, or both are. Pick one.

Nuts of all sorts had a team to root for in the SB, that does not mean the team they supported matched their nutty values.

[Image: v8ccqht.jpg]

Ok, we'll go with the view that only Trump uses dog whistles, and only the worst people in society hear them.

Seems logical.

And the evolution of society into the Eloi and Morlocks continues.


RE: Trump Administration - tanqtonic - 02-06-2017 01:08 PM

(02-06-2017 12:11 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 12:05 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 12:03 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Speaking of dog whistles...

http://dailycaller.com/2017/02/05/casey-...ago-video/

Maybe it is time to stop ascribing every nut who comes out on one side or the other as reacting to double secret codewords?

Send me to a 404 page.

Which is really apt for a link about a dog whistle if you think about it. Ha.

Try this one:

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/2219318-casey-anthony-spotted-at-anti-trump-protest-in-florida/


FYI, it is a story about Casey Anthony at an anti-Trump protest.

Or just google Casey Anthony, Trump

But did the anti-trumpers disavow Casey Anthony? makes all the difference..... 03-wink


RE: Trump Administration - OptimisticOwl - 02-06-2017 01:37 PM

(02-06-2017 01:08 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 12:11 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 12:05 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 12:03 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Speaking of dog whistles...

http://dailycaller.com/2017/02/05/casey-...ago-video/

Maybe it is time to stop ascribing every nut who comes out on one side or the other as reacting to double secret codewords?

Send me to a 404 page.

Which is really apt for a link about a dog whistle if you think about it. Ha.

Try this one:

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/2219318-casey-anthony-spotted-at-anti-trump-protest-in-florida/


FYI, it is a story about Casey Anthony at an anti-Trump protest.

Or just google Casey Anthony, Trump

But did the anti-trumpers disavow Casey Anthony? makes all the difference..... 03-wink

Well, she was standing in a crowd of about 3000 of them, unmolested and unprotested.


RE: Trump Administration - JOwl - 02-06-2017 04:59 PM

(02-05-2017 08:06 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(02-05-2017 05:46 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(02-05-2017 04:54 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I would venture to say that neither Richard Spencer nor David Duke would need to wait on any dog whistles before speaking up.

You're right that they don't need to. But that they have responded directly to some of the actions by the Trump administration. That is the key.

Lets sum this up:

Trump makes a statement
Spencer comments on that statement
Therefore there must be intentional dog whistles in Trump's statement....

With all due respect there is a *major* lack of substance and/or backing in that chain.

I guess anytime Spencer, or Duke, or Westboro (or anybody like that) comments on anything that Trump did or said, we will pretty much always expect from this time going forward that it is "obviously" dog whistles being blown intentionally expressly for that purpose; glad I have that figured out now.

Nope, you're explicitly leaving out key connections. Connections I was nice enough to furnish for you the first time.

Trump bring in Bannon as his chief advisor, his Karl Rove. Trump puts out ads/statements that people paying attention identify as coded, anti-Semitic red meat for Bannon's alt-right crowd. Members of that alt-right crowd, such as Spencer and the shitbags at Stormfront.com celebrate those messages.

You guys can chuckle with your false equivalences as you like, but until you produce the statement from Democratic leaders that you believe Casey Anthony was responding to, then your examples have no relevance.


RE: Trump Administration - tanqtonic - 02-06-2017 05:50 PM

(02-06-2017 04:59 PM)JOwl Wrote:  
(02-05-2017 08:06 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(02-05-2017 05:46 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(02-05-2017 04:54 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I would venture to say that neither Richard Spencer nor David Duke would need to wait on any dog whistles before speaking up.

You're right that they don't need to. But that they have responded directly to some of the actions by the Trump administration. That is the key.

Lets sum this up:

Trump makes a statement
Spencer comments on that statement
Therefore there must be intentional dog whistles in Trump's statement....

With all due respect there is a *major* lack of substance and/or backing in that chain.

I guess anytime Spencer, or Duke, or Westboro (or anybody like that) comments on anything that Trump did or said, we will pretty much always expect from this time going forward that it is "obviously" dog whistles being blown intentionally expressly for that purpose; glad I have that figured out now.

Nope, you're explicitly leaving out key connections. Connections I was nice enough to furnish for you the first time.

I actually ignored them for being simplistically broad-brushed. I'll explain below.


Quote:Trump bring in Bannon as his chief advisor, his Karl Rove. Trump puts out ads/statements that people paying attention identify as coded, anti-Semitic red meat for Bannon's alt-right crowd. Members of that alt-right crowd, such as Spencer and the shitbags at Stormfront.com celebrate those messages.

You guys can chuckle with your false equivalences as you like, but until you produce the statement from Democratic leaders that you believe Casey Anthony was responding to, then your examples have no relevance.

In your mind alt-right and Bannon are exclusively 1488 types. In fact, the entire evil dog-whistle cabal is predicated on that. I don't subscribe to that all inclusiveness.

You previously stated:

Quote:And what is the alt-right*? A big mix of extreme conservatism, heavy on the white nationalism and anti-Semitism.

I hate to tell you, but while the 1488ers are in a subset of the alt-right nationalism (note "nationalist" without the adjective "white" in front of it), your broad brush sweeps in a lot more.

But considering it is the same Mother Jones - Vox - Huffpo - Salon set that branded the Tea Party movement as nothing but a bunch of bigoted racists, I'm not surprised that this constant drumbeat has now changed targets.

So please keep up with the nefarious Dr Evil "they are nothing but racists" drumbeat.

Your definition of alt-right in the manner to include *anyone* in that (somewhat vaguely defined) vein as "extreme conservat[ives] [,...] white national[ists,] and anti-Semit[es]" actually tends to undercut all your dog-whistle stuff.

So I am no more chuckling at a false equivalency than I am at an over-eager attempt to broadly define anyone who self-associates as an alt-right as an "extreme conservat[ive] [,...] white national[ist,] and anti-Semit[e]".


RE: Trump Administration - JOwl - 02-06-2017 09:49 PM

(02-06-2017 05:50 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 04:59 PM)JOwl Wrote:  
(02-05-2017 08:06 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(02-05-2017 05:46 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(02-05-2017 04:54 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I would venture to say that neither Richard Spencer nor David Duke would need to wait on any dog whistles before speaking up.

You're right that they don't need to. But that they have responded directly to some of the actions by the Trump administration. That is the key.

Lets sum this up:

Trump makes a statement
Spencer comments on that statement
Therefore there must be intentional dog whistles in Trump's statement....

With all due respect there is a *major* lack of substance and/or backing in that chain.

I guess anytime Spencer, or Duke, or Westboro (or anybody like that) comments on anything that Trump did or said, we will pretty much always expect from this time going forward that it is "obviously" dog whistles being blown intentionally expressly for that purpose; glad I have that figured out now.

Nope, you're explicitly leaving out key connections. Connections I was nice enough to furnish for you the first time.

I actually ignored them for being simplistically broad-brushed. I'll explain below.


Quote:Trump bring in Bannon as his chief advisor, his Karl Rove. Trump puts out ads/statements that people paying attention identify as coded, anti-Semitic red meat for Bannon's alt-right crowd. Members of that alt-right crowd, such as Spencer and the shitbags at Stormfront.com celebrate those messages.

You guys can chuckle with your false equivalences as you like, but until you produce the statement from Democratic leaders that you believe Casey Anthony was responding to, then your examples have no relevance.

In your mind alt-right and Bannon are exclusively 1488 types. In fact, the entire evil dog-whistle cabal is predicated on that. I don't subscribe to that all inclusiveness.

You previously stated:

Quote:And what is the alt-right*? A big mix of extreme conservatism, heavy on the white nationalism and anti-Semitism.

I hate to tell you, but while the 1488ers are in a subset of the alt-right nationalism (note "nationalist" without the adjective "white" in front of it), your broad brush sweeps in a lot more.

But considering it is the same Mother Jones - Vox - Huffpo - Salon set that branded the Tea Party movement as nothing but a bunch of bigoted racists, I'm not surprised that this constant drumbeat has now changed targets.

So please keep up with the nefarious Dr Evil "they are nothing but racists" drumbeat.

Your definition of alt-right in the manner to include *anyone* in that (somewhat vaguely defined) vein as "extreme conservat[ives] [,...] white national[ists,] and anti-Semit[es]" actually tends to undercut all your dog-whistle stuff.

So I am no more chuckling at a false equivalency than I am at an over-eager attempt to broadly define anyone who self-associates as an alt-right as an "extreme conservat[ive] [,...] white national[ist,] and anti-Semit[e]".

I see you didn't like my definition of the alt-right -- which was "A big mix of extreme conservatism, heavy on the white nationalism and anti-Semitism". I'm going to take issue with you representing that as me saying "they are nothing but racists", but let's try to get to something more constructive here. I was going for a brief description -- one sentence. Note that I did link to Yiannopoulos's meandering/self-contradictory primer to the alt-right for folks like OptimisticOwl who seem completely unaware of it, which of course has a much fuller description.

So I ask you -- what is your one-sentence definition of the alt-right?

And while we're at it, where does Richard Spencer fall? Regular alt-right or 1488er?


RE: Trump Administration - tanqtonic - 02-06-2017 11:47 PM

(02-06-2017 09:49 PM)JOwl Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 05:50 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 04:59 PM)JOwl Wrote:  Nope, you're explicitly leaving out key connections. Connections I was nice enough to furnish for you the first time.

I actually ignored them for being simplistically broad-brushed. I'll explain below.


Quote:Trump bring in Bannon as his chief advisor, his Karl Rove. Trump puts out ads/statements that people paying attention identify as coded, anti-Semitic red meat for Bannon's alt-right crowd. Members of that alt-right crowd, such as Spencer and the shitbags at Stormfront.com celebrate those messages.

You guys can chuckle with your false equivalences as you like, but until you produce the statement from Democratic leaders that you believe Casey Anthony was responding to, then your examples have no relevance.

In your mind alt-right and Bannon are exclusively 1488 types. In fact, the entire evil dog-whistle cabal is predicated on that. I don't subscribe to that all inclusiveness.

You previously stated:

Quote:And what is the alt-right*? A big mix of extreme conservatism, heavy on the white nationalism and anti-Semitism.

I hate to tell you, but while the 1488ers are in a subset of the alt-right nationalism (note "nationalist" without the adjective "white" in front of it), your broad brush sweeps in a lot more.

But considering it is the same Mother Jones - Vox - Huffpo - Salon set that branded the Tea Party movement as nothing but a bunch of bigoted racists, I'm not surprised that this constant drumbeat has now changed targets.

So please keep up with the nefarious Dr Evil "they are nothing but racists" drumbeat.

Your definition of alt-right in the manner to include *anyone* in that (somewhat vaguely defined) vein as "extreme conservat[ives] [,...] white national[ists,] and anti-Semit[es]" actually tends to undercut all your dog-whistle stuff.

So I am no more chuckling at a false equivalency than I am at an over-eager attempt to broadly define anyone who self-associates as an alt-right as an "extreme conservat[ive] [,...] white national[ist,] and anti-Semit[e]".

Quote:I see you didn't like my definition of the alt-right -- which was "A big mix of extreme conservatism, heavy on the white nationalism and anti-Semitism".

Correct. Thought it was very heavy-handed to be honest.

Quote:I'm going to take issue with you representing that as me saying "they are nothing but racists", but let's try to get to something more constructive here.

I will do the same. Let me first explain the pithy "they are nothing but racists" comment I made. First let's examine your 'causation' chain you presented:

Quote:Trump bring in Bannon as his chief advisor, his Karl Rove. Trump puts out ads/statements that people paying attention identify as coded, anti-Semitic red meat for Bannon's alt-right crowd. Members of that alt-right crowd, such as Spencer and the shitbags at Stormfront.com celebrate those messages.

In order for the efficacy you ascribe to be achieved (and I am assuming when you say "people paying attention" you mean the racial nationalists you see barking.... correct me if my assumption is wrong please...), then Trump and the 'cabal' must be ipso facto either racist, or have sympathies for being racist.

So the assumption that is impliedly present in your causation chain is that everyone in that chain is nothing but racist or racist sympathizers.

So the Spencers 'bark' -- sure they do. It is obvious that they are much happier that Trump is there as opposed to Obama or Hillary. Will they try and assert whatever primacy they feel they might have earned? Without a doubt, its in the nature of that beast. Will they listen for messages (whether they are there or not)? Sure they will, they will take any indication that they are in the 'in crowd' from whatever source they can gin up, much like I used to look for signals (that may not necessarily intentionally be there) from when I was a real goober from anyone of the opposite sex (now Im just a goober, not a real goober mind you....). But the self-vindication is what makes these people tick.

My source.... 2 of them. Used to work offshore with some of these clowns, and spent a lot of time in cramped quarters with these types. Also, early in my legal career, I actually represented some of these types in non-criminal matters. Also a serious eye-opener.....

So I agree that the dogs bark, but I also understand that most will search desperately for *anything* to broadcast that they might be on the upswing, and many times make serious mountains out of molehills over the need to do that.

So my issue is with the trigger causation. You imply that the triggers are real, present, and intentional. Thus, the actors pulling those triggers must by necessity be "nothing but racists" or sympathetic to the racists. Your chain of causation is predicated on that --- and that is why I characterized it as such.

Hopefully this is a more thought out and less pithy explanation.

Quote:I was going for a brief description -- one sentence. Note that I did link to Yiannopoulos's meandering/self-contradictory primer to the alt-right for folks like OptimisticOwl who seem completely unaware of it, which of course has a much fuller description.

So I ask you -- what is your one-sentence definition of the alt-right?

It would be one that is far less heavy handed, tbh. Ill try to doctor yours to show you where my differences lie, and potentially where the exceptions I have to your statement about it (which, btw, seems to be the stock trade for Vox/Atlantic/Mother Jones/Huffpo -- and are the same exceptions I took for their similar portayal of the Tea Party movement.)

"A big mix of extreme various branches of nationalistic-leaning conservatism, heavy on the , with some strains of white nationalism and anti-Semitism present, and typically characterized by direct political confrontation and implementation of Alinsky-style political engagement"

First, the term "extreme" is an emotionally loaded, yet utterly garbage term which is intended to do nothing but provoke. One could call me an "extreme" conservative based on my views on Chicago school economics, yet a complete "liberal" on legal marijuana, abortion, and gay marriage. (one can also make the similar statement that the terms "liberal" and "conservative" are also fluff words with no real meaning....).

But I will grant you that I can think of no strain of alt-right that a liberal/progressive would embrace, so lets leave the "conservative" there as a place holder.

There are two common themes in alt-right schools that I see: a profoundly deeper sense of nationalism (not racism mind you...), and a willingness to be far more 'in your face' than the Tea Partiers ever dreamed of, up to and including the various Alinksy engagement tactics and those that the community organizers of the left ever only used. And Trump has really mobilized this alt-right because he is a street-fighter --- he doubles down. And the alt-right relishes in engagement.

Now to the ugly --- the white nationalism portion absolutely does exist within the alt-right, they definitely meet the criteria. They are not just nationalists, but racially motivated nationalists. And they do employ 'in your face' style of engagement, they are probably the only group (aside from the Tea Partiers) on the libertarian/conservative spectrum to have done so in an open manner. And, to repeat myself, they probably fall under the rubric the alt-right, as do a number of other factions as well. But, in my observation, an alt-right does not ipso facto mean a white supremacist or anti-semite.

Lets just say a Gamer Gate persona does not mean the guy necessarily yells "Seig Heil". But both are seriously 'in your face', and are both 'in your face' about causes that make a SJW tick.

Quote:And while we're at it, where does Richard Spencer fall? Regular alt-right or 1488er?

I dont think there is really a "regular" alt-right.

He is an unabashed 1488er. Its kind of hard to characterize someone who calls for the creation of a "white ethnostate" as anything but that.

------

To be blunt, every characterization I have seen in the Atlantic/Vox/Huffpo/TPM world of 'alt-right' always includes the verbiage of 'racist' (or equivalent) with it. It is really ironic to me, as they readily embark on the same broad brush indictment treatment that Breitbart is supposedly guilty of, but just in an opposite direction. They completely rolled over the libertarian-based Tea Party with that slur campaign, and I see the same script being played out here.


RE: Trump Administration - JOwl - 02-07-2017 03:42 AM

That's a thoughtful response, so thanks for that. And it's a cute thing you did there, as of course "Alinskiyite" was Fox and the right's favorite vague epithet for painting Obama a dirty, dirty radical. Frankly, I didn't know anything about Alinsky other than 60's organizer, but reading up on wikipedia it sounds like he was granddaddy of all trolls, and spiritual forebear of what Yiannoupolis described as the "meme team" contingent of the alt right. So you're spot on there.

You keep running down the same logical hole, though. I believe Bannon is dog whistling the anti-Semitic and white nationalist subset of the alt right, so yeah, he's a racist. Trump picked him as his guy, so Trump gets tyo wear it too. But that doesn't mean everyone else in the alt-right is racist, any more than it makes all conservatives racist. Sure they're willing to make common cause with racists, and not call them on their racism, so that tars them some in my mind, but I'm not going to call them all racists. I reserve that for those who actually are.

And here's where your firewall between the 1488ers and the non-racist "other" portion of the alt-right really falls down. Spencer is a 1488er, and so Yiannopoulos's alt-right primer puts the lie to the idea that 1488ers are some minor fringe subset of the alt-right; as I noted earlier, it states: "The media empire of the modern-day alternative right coalesced around Richard Spencer during his editorship of Taki’s Magazine. In 2010, Spencer founded AlternativeRight.com, which would become a center of alt-right thought."
Does that mean the entire alt-right is composed of white nationalists? Again, no. But it puts them directly at its center.


RE: Trump Administration - RiceLad15 - 02-07-2017 10:16 AM

Looks like the golf course will be a big tool for Trump during his time as president.

Quote:"We're going to have a round of golf, which is a great thing," Trump told a radio interviewer on Sunday, according to a transcript released by the White House. "That's the one thing about golf — you get to know somebody better on a golf course than you will over lunch."

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/palm-beach/fl-trump-second-palm-beach-visit-20170206-story.html

I wonder when the chirping will start from those who criticized Obama about how much golf he played?

Golfing once a week seems completely reasonable, so I have no problem with Trump's decision, but boy I can't wait til he gets rake over the coals by those on the right, I mean, just look at this website someone made for Obama: http://obamagolfcounter.com/


RE: Trump Administration - westsidewolf1989 - 02-07-2017 10:19 AM

"That's the one thing about golf — you get to know somebody better on a golf course than you will over lunch."

Considering Trump is a notorious cheater on the golf course, I'm not sure that philosophy helps him.


RE: Trump Administration - OptimisticOwl - 02-07-2017 10:32 AM

(02-07-2017 10:16 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Looks like the golf course will be a big tool for Trump during his time as president.

Quote:"We're going to have a round of golf, which is a great thing," Trump told a radio interviewer on Sunday, according to a transcript released by the White House. "That's the one thing about golf — you get to know somebody better on a golf course than you will over lunch."

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/palm-beach/fl-trump-second-palm-beach-visit-20170206-story.html

I wonder when the chirping will start from those who criticized Obama about how much golf he played?

Golfing once a week seems completely reasonable, so I have no problem with Trump's decision, but boy I can't wait til he gets rake over the coals by those on the right, I mean, just look at this website someone made for Obama: http://obamagolfcounter.com/

Eisenhower was criticized for too much golf. Don't feel so picked on.