CSNbbs
AP poll out - Printable Version

+- CSNbbs (https://csnbbs.com)
+-- Forum: Inactive Areas (/forum-770.html)
+--- Forum: BigEastbbs (/forum-771.html)
+---- Forum: Big East Conference Talk (/forum-772.html)
+---- Thread: AP poll out (/thread-753103.html)



AP poll out - stever20 - 10-15-2015 11:08 AM

Nova #9
Butler #22
Georgetown 30
Xavier t35
PC t41
Marquette t46

about as to be expected- maybe Georgetown/Xavier a smidge low.


RE: Coaches poll out - gosports1 - 10-15-2015 10:49 PM

i expected the initial poll to have a couple of our teams a tad low. I think once the season progresses they will move up where they belong


RE: Coaches poll out - stever20 - 10-16-2015 08:41 AM

yeah and a big part of the initial polls being low is our poor performance in the tourney. Until we perform in the tourney like we should, we won't be getting the respect that we probably do deserve.


RE: Coaches poll out - stever20 - 11-02-2015 01:46 PM

AP poll is out:
Villanova 11
Butler 24
Georgetown 33
Xavier 39
Providence 40

Like I said- I think the poor tourney performance really negatively impacts these ratings. No way in hell if Nova had made it to the sweet 16 or elite 8 they are ranked #11.


RE: AP poll out - GoldenWarrior11 - 11-02-2015 03:43 PM

I'm not disappointed by rankings. The only things that matters are 1.) Tournament teams and 2.) Tournament wins.


RE: AP poll out - stever20 - 11-02-2015 03:46 PM

I am with Georgetown a bit.

Of course, with Georgetown, if that was our NCAA seed- it'd be awful- as that's a 9 seed and sacrificial lamb to a 1 seed in the 2nd rd of the tourney(thank GOD the tourney is going back to calling the 1st weekend the 1st and 2nd rounds again this year)

I think this year will be interesting. With all of the youth that the conference has- and it's a lot- OOC portion of the schedule could be pretty poor(especially compared to last season).


RE: AP poll out - hoops22 - 11-03-2015 03:35 PM

Stever, who cares what the preseason rankings are? Do you remember what they were last year at this time? Let me refresh your memory. Villanova was ranked 12th, but finished as a No.1 seed. Of the 51 teams receiving votes, the only other BE team mentioned was Georgetown at No. 43. That would have barely gotten them in the tournament as what, a 12 seed? They did much better. So did Butler, Xavier, Providence and St. Johns. The league got one 1, two 4's, two 6's, and a 9 in the tournament. So much for the preseason AP poll.

Your obsession with tournament results is distorted. As fans, of course that's what we focus on when reflecting on the overall success or failure of a season. But knowledgeable basketball people, such as coaches, realize that the entire body of work is more reflective of a teams overall stature. When Duke lost 2 out of 3 years in the first round to a 14 and 15 seed, were you sounding the alarm? Of course not. In fact, it's entirely possible that had they won those games, they could have been off and running to another final four appearance. Strange and unexpected things happen in the tournament, that's what makes it so much fun. As disappointing as it is to be on the short end of one of those games, it doesn't diminish the body of work from the previous 30 games.

Let me give you another example, this one concerning UCONN's championship in 2014. Do you remember their first game in the tournament. They were a 7 seed playing a 10 seed St. Josephs and trailing by 3 with 38 seconds to go. Napier went up for a shot that was off target. The ball fell off the rim just right where Brimah rebounded it, put a shot back up and was fouled. Then he made the free throw, no sure thing as he was a 57% free throw shooter. St. Joes had a chance for the last shot, but didn't convert. Then there was the 5 minute overtime, and UCONN prevailed. A lot of things had to go right in the final 38 seconds for UCONN to pull it out, a game they trailed almost the entire time. UCONN proved to be a worthy champion by beating Villanova, Iowa St. Mich St, Florida and Kentucky. No argument here, that they earned it on the court and deserved to be champions. However, think how close the narrative came to being completely different. A 7 seed UCONN team (bad by their standards) losing in the first round to a 10 seed St Joes. Then the next year not making the tournament at all. Had that happened Ollie's seat might even be warm right now. Instead he's justifiably a hero. That's how thin the margin can be between the ultimate success and failure when it comes to the NCAA tournament. In fact, I doubt you denigrate Kentucky or Florida for losing to UCONN that year, since they were the champions, but you have no problem labeling Villanova a disappointment for losing to the same team.

Again as a fan, I hope to see more victories in the NCAA tournament this year. Last year Butler lost to ACC champ Notre Dame in overtime, and Xavier gave Arizona all they could handler in a game that was anyone's with a couple of minutes to go. But losing those games doesn't lessen the accomplishments of the conference, and the amazing OOC record that earned it it's No. 2 or 3 ranking last year. At some point though, it would be nice if you'd realize the glass isn't always half empty, as you're always happy to shout, to anyone that will listen.


RE: AP poll out - stever20 - 11-03-2015 03:52 PM

but the fact is college basketball has become a March sport.

Big difference between Kentucky/Florida and Villanova in 2014- Kentucky/Florida in 2014 lost in the final 4. Nova loses in the round of 32. HUGE difference.

I look at Kentucky 2014. Regular season they were 24-10 and had an 8 seed in the tourney. They then make the tourney and make the title game. Finish the year at 29-11. Villanova was 28-4 entering the tourney and had a 2 seed in the tourney. They lose in 2nd round. Finish the year at 29-5. I'm sorry, but IMO, and in the minds of most folks, Kentucky had the better year. And UConn definitely had the better year than Nova.

Here's another way I look at it. We had a good year last year. If Nova, Georgetown, and Butler had pulled out their NCAA games- the year goes from a good year to a great year. That's the thing that the league so far hasn't done- taken a year from a good year to a great year. That's the next step that the league must do to get recognized the way we want to get recognized. Last year the league had a real shot at that- and couldn't convert. Hopefully things are different this year- though I think with all the youth in the league- may be a year away to be honest.


RE: AP poll out - stever20 - 11-03-2015 04:01 PM

Also last year having AP poll to start the year with only Nova and Georgetown getting votes- shows what I'm talking about how the prior year and the tourney matters...
2013-14 we had a brutal season- with 4 tourney teams(with 1 only in due to winning the BET and a 2nd in the PIG). we only get 2 teams with votes even to start the next season
2014-15 we have a much better season- with 6 tourney teams. we get 2 teams in the poll, and then 3 more getting votes.

You say well ratings don't matter. I think for instance if Georgetown was ranked, the game with Maryland would mean even more- a Georgetown win would push them up further than if they were unranked. So I think the rankings do matter to some degree.


RE: AP poll out - stever20 - 11-03-2015 04:24 PM

this is what I posted the day after our flop in the tourney:
IMO, what has happened this year is going into this year there were questions just how good we were, especially vs the A10 and AAC. We answered those questions very well(I think if we hadn't, the expansion talk would be loud as anything right now).

But now, the question has changed to how good we are compared to the other power conferences.

right now s16 teams-
ACC 5
B12- 2
B10 2
P12 3
SEC 1- but that's Kentucky
The answer there after yesterday isn't quite as good.

So the question has changed after this season, and the answer to the new question isn't as good as we want it to be. It's still been a good season. We are now unquestionably the top non P5 conference- something we couldn't say this time last year. So it's been a good year. Just not a great year.


RE: AP poll out - hoops22 - 11-04-2015 02:23 PM

Where I think we disagree a bit is, I feel the question of who has a better season, is a different matter than who has the better team. Obviously I would rather have my team lose in the championship game than make an early exit in the tournament. But in our earlier example who's to say Villanova wouldn't have been a final four team if they had been in a different bracket than UCONN, just as Kentucky or Florida could have been eliminated in the round of 32, if they had played UCONN at that time. Personally, I think playoffs and tournaments in all sports simply provide a snapshot of who's playing best at that particular moment, and are not necessarily a measure of the best overall team. A few years back a 10-6 wild card NY Giants beat an undefeated Patriots team in the Super Bowl. The Giants had the more successful season, but were certainly not the best team. This happens all the time, the 2011 Phillies won 102 games and had that amazing pitching staff, but lost to a wild card Cardinals team that then went on to win the World Series. No question the Phillies were a better team, but didn't have as successful a year as the Cardinals. The best team doesn't always win.

Also, the preseason rankings don't concern me. There are plenty of examples of a team getting no recognition in the pre season, and then having a good run in the Maui Invitational or some other tournament and getting a good ranking pretty quick. If we beat some good teams in our OOC games early this season, the recognition will come. If Georgetown beats Maryland, and then beats Wisconsin in the seasons third game, they will likely be a top 10 team in the first rankings to come out after that, even though they're not ranked now.


RE: AP poll out - stever20 - 11-04-2015 02:37 PM

(11-04-2015 02:23 PM)hoops22 Wrote:  Where I think we disagree a bit is, I feel the question of who has a better season, is a different matter than who has the better team. Obviously I would rather have my team lose in the championship game than make an early exit in the tournament. But in our earlier example who's to say Villanova wouldn't have been a final four team if they had been in a different bracket than UCONN, just as Kentucky or Florida could have been eliminated in the round of 32, if they had played UCONN at that time. Personally, I think playoffs and tournaments in all sports simply provide a snapshot of who's playing best at that particular moment, and are not necessarily a measure of the best overall team. A few years back a 10-6 wild card NY Giants beat an undefeated Patriots team in the Super Bowl. The Giants had the more successful season, but were certainly not the best team. This happens all the time, the 2011 Phillies won 102 games and had that amazing pitching staff, but lost to a wild card Cardinals team that then went on to win the World Series. No question the Phillies were a better team, but didn't have as successful a year as the Cardinals. The best team doesn't always win.

Also, the preseason rankings don't concern me. There are plenty of examples of a team getting no recognition in the pre season, and then having a good run in the Maui Invitational or some other tournament and getting a good ranking pretty quick. If we beat some good teams in our OOC games early this season, the recognition will come. If Georgetown beats Maryland, and then beats Wisconsin in the seasons third game, they will likely be a top 10 team in the first rankings to come out after that, even though they're not ranked now.

The thing is, most fans, and even a LOT of the media do view things in the lens of who had the better season rather than in the lens of who had the better team. Also, pro sports and college sports a lot different in that in pro's there is at most 32 teams. College there's 351 basketball teams. Personally, I've always looked at things at who has had the better season. I guess part of that was the crazy mid 80's in college basketball. Think Georgetown/Villanova 1985. Georgetown isn't viewed anywhere near as well as Villanova from that year- because of the tourney final. But Georgetown was #1. And St John's is almost totally forgotten from that year.

As far as your example with Georgetown this year. If we beat Maryland and Wisconsin- but then lose to Duke(the final of the 2k classic)- we won't be in the top 10. Probably in the 20ish range I would think.

The problem outside Georgetown, Villanova(who does have a LOT coming back, no matter what Gumby says), Butler, and Xavier- (and even there- Butler, Xavier did have some big losses)- a LOT of youth this year. It's going to take some time for these teams to gel. I think it's a situation where year end- would absolutely HATE to play any of the teams- but those teams won't get in the tourney because of all the early season losses that they're going to take just due to all the youth they're playing.


RE: AP poll out - stever20 - 11-04-2015 02:49 PM

the one thing that has happened with the BE now is the OOC schedules have really improved...
Georgetown- Maryland, Wisconsin, Duke or VCU, Syracuse, UConn
Villanova- Stanford, Arkansas or Georgia Tech, Oklahoma, Virginia, Temple
Butler- Temple or Minnesota, Miami or Utah hopefully, Cincy, Tennessee, Purdue
Xavier- Michigan, Alabama, Wichita St, Notre Dame, Iowa, or Dayton, Cincy, Wake Forest

and I could go on...


RE: AP poll out - stever20 - 11-04-2015 03:01 PM

Also, I go back to what you were saying between the Giants and Patriots. The Patriots aren't viewed by nearly anyone as being one of the best teams ever. They've already been forgotten to a large degree. Also, I look at individual players. Dan Marino isn't viewed anywhere near the same as guys like Joe Montana, Brett Favre, Tom Brady, etc. because he never won the Super Bowl.

I just don't think there's all that many people that view stuff in terms of who had the best team. Like it or not, the postseason does matter.