Machiavelli Wrote:My take. They tax themselves. Have universal health care. Have an APPRECIATION of education and SPEND money accordingly.

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:- 1/4 of people (IIRC) don't make it through high school

Quote:An education system that does not reward being exceptional, but rather tells everyone that they are good and teaches to the dumbest student instead of forcing those students to improve or fail.

Machiavelli Wrote:

Quote:An education system that does not reward being exceptional, but rather tells everyone that they are good and teaches to the dumbest student instead of forcing those students to improve or fail.

You really hit that one on the head. I spend 90% of my time teaching basic fundamentals to underachievers. It's all about the OGT test because we are judged on those scores. It's a flawed system. Here's a link to the released OGT's. I think you will be surprised. We should have all the politicians that support the graduation test take it and post their scores in public. I gaurandamntee you they wouldn't pass the math or science portion the first time.

http://www.ode.state.oh.us/GD/Templates/Pages/ODE/ODEDetail.aspx?page=3&TopicRelationID=1070&ContentID=7835&Content=46111

blah Wrote:

Machiavelli Wrote:

Quote:An education system that does not reward being exceptional, but rather tells everyone that they are good and teaches to the dumbest student instead of forcing those students to improve or fail.

You really hit that one on the head. I spend 90% of my time teaching basic fundamentals to underachievers. It's all about the OGT test because we are judged on those scores. It's a flawed system. Here's a link to the released OGT's. I think you will be surprised. We should have all the politicians that support the graduation test take it and post their scores in public. I gaurandamntee you they wouldn't pass the math or science portion the first time.

http://www.ode.state.oh.us/GD/Templates/Pages/ODE/ODEDetail.aspx?page=3&TopicRelationID=1070&ContentID=7835&Content=46111

I don't disagree with you. Every state has its standardized test that grades how that school is "doing" vs. other schools. I don't understand why the burden of proof is on the school. Let the weak students either sink or swim. Quit holding back the rest of the class.

If the state feels the need to give a test, they should test things that actually matter in the real world. Basic math skills, reading comprehension, writing composition. Memorizing facts and formulas for a test does not help you in the real world. Those things can be looked up in minutes if needed.

blah Wrote:

Machiavelli Wrote:My take. They tax themselves. Have universal health care. Have an APPRECIATION of education and SPEND money accordingly.

I disagree that that is what makes other nations great. I will agree that America is not as great as it once was, but that we only have ourselves to blame. My feeling is that what has led to the fall is a loss of ingenuity and hard work (everyone wants to get rich quick with no real work to get there). Allowing a bloated health care system to get more bloated without any real competition. An education system that does not reward being exceptional, but rather tells everyone that they are good and teaches to the dumbest student instead of forcing those students to improve or fail. Finally, we have become a society that cares only about being politically correct and the perception that it holds.

Want to see a comparison? Take a look at the collapse of the Roman Empire and see how it matches up with the U.S.

Fo Shizzle Wrote:

blah Wrote:

Machiavelli Wrote:

Quote:An education system that does not reward being exceptional, but rather tells everyone that they are good and teaches to the dumbest student instead of forcing those students to improve or fail.

You really hit that one on the head. I spend 90% of my time teaching basic fundamentals to underachievers. It's all about the OGT test because we are judged on those scores. It's a flawed system. Here's a link to the released OGT's. I think you will be surprised. We should have all the politicians that support the graduation test take it and post their scores in public. I gaurandamntee you they wouldn't pass the math or science portion the first time.

http://www.ode.state.oh.us/GD/Templates/Pages/ODE/ODEDetail.aspx?page=3&TopicRelationID=1070&ContentID=7835&Content=46111

I don't disagree with you. Every state has its standardized test that grades how that school is "doing" vs. other schools. I don't understand why the burden of proof is on the school. Let the weak students either sink or swim. Quit holding back the rest of the class.

If the state feels the need to give a test, they should test things that actually matter in the real world. Basic math skills, reading comprehension, writing composition. Memorizing facts and formulas for a test does not help you in the real world. Those things can be looked up in minutes if needed.

If citizens could educate their children in the manner "they" feel is effective and the State would get out of education...we would be fine. Teachers know how to relay knowledge. Leave it to them. Stop stiffling them with silly ass mandates that are a 1 size fits all solution(Government solutions).

Machiavelli Wrote:The United States ranks 17th. A sad ranking for the best country on the planet? Don't you think? Are people sometimes blustery in saying the United States is the best country in the world? Do we have the best government? On what basis do you feel we are the best country in the world? Literacy rate? Survival rate or Longevity? Health Care? What makes the U.S great. Freedom? Europeans enjoy the same freedoms if not more. Hell, I can't even play poker on the internet legally. I think it's time we look at depth at this. What makes this country the best country in the world?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Poverty_Index

blah Wrote:

Fo Shizzle Wrote:

blah Wrote:

Machiavelli Wrote:

Quote:An education system that does not reward being exceptional, but rather tells everyone that they are good and teaches to the dumbest student instead of forcing those students to improve or fail.

You really hit that one on the head. I spend 90% of my time teaching basic fundamentals to underachievers. It's all about the OGT test because we are judged on those scores. It's a flawed system. Here's a link to the released OGT's. I think you will be surprised. We should have all the politicians that support the graduation test take it and post their scores in public. I gaurandamntee you they wouldn't pass the math or science portion the first time.

http://www.ode.state.oh.us/GD/Templates/Pages/ODE/ODEDetail.aspx?page=3&TopicRelationID=1070&ContentID=7835&Content=46111

I don't disagree with you. Every state has its standardized test that grades how that school is "doing" vs. other schools. I don't understand why the burden of proof is on the school. Let the weak students either sink or swim. Quit holding back the rest of the class.

If the state feels the need to give a test, they should test things that actually matter in the real world. Basic math skills, reading comprehension, writing composition. Memorizing facts and formulas for a test does not help you in the real world. Those things can be looked up in minutes if needed.

If citizens could educate their children in the manner "they" feel is effective and the State would get out of education...we would be fine. Teachers know how to relay knowledge. Leave it to them. Stop stiffling them with silly ass mandates that are a 1 size fits all solution(Government solutions).

I don't buy this approach. Most of the people who I have met that have been "home schooled" end up being social outcasts that can't communicate with other peers. The education they receive from a pure educational stance is usually much better, but how do you simulate real world interactions? You can't get that at home with mom and dad, as much as those that homeschool would like you to believe.

Fo Shizzle Wrote:

blah Wrote:

Fo Shizzle Wrote:

blah Wrote:

Machiavelli Wrote:

Quote:An education system that does not reward being exceptional, but rather tells everyone that they are good and teaches to the dumbest student instead of forcing those students to improve or fail.

You really hit that one on the head. I spend 90% of my time teaching basic fundamentals to underachievers. It's all about the OGT test because we are judged on those scores. It's a flawed system. Here's a link to the released OGT's. I think you will be surprised. We should have all the politicians that support the graduation test take it and post their scores in public. I gaurandamntee you they wouldn't pass the math or science portion the first time.

http://www.ode.state.oh.us/GD/Templates/Pages/ODE/ODEDetail.aspx?page=3&TopicRelationID=1070&ContentID=7835&Content=46111

I don't disagree with you. Every state has its standardized test that grades how that school is "doing" vs. other schools. I don't understand why the burden of proof is on the school. Let the weak students either sink or swim. Quit holding back the rest of the class.

If the state feels the need to give a test, they should test things that actually matter in the real world. Basic math skills, reading comprehension, writing composition. Memorizing facts and formulas for a test does not help you in the real world. Those things can be looked up in minutes if needed.

If citizens could educate their children in the manner "they" feel is effective and the State would get out of education...we would be fine. Teachers know how to relay knowledge. Leave it to them. Stop stiffling them with silly ass mandates that are a 1 size fits all solution(Government solutions).

I don't buy this approach. Most of the people who I have met that have been "home schooled" end up being social outcasts that can't communicate with other peers. The education they receive from a pure educational stance is usually much better, but how do you simulate real world interactions? You can't get that at home with mom and dad, as much as those that homeschool would like you to believe.

Im not an advocate of home school or any particlular type of school...I advocate free market solutions to education..be it homeschool,private,vocational..or whatever. My problem is with the government being involved.

blah Wrote:

Fo Shizzle Wrote:

blah Wrote:

Fo Shizzle Wrote:

blah Wrote:

Machiavelli Wrote:

Quote:An education system that does not reward being exceptional, but rather tells everyone that they are good and teaches to the dumbest student instead of forcing those students to improve or fail.

You really hit that one on the head. I spend 90% of my time teaching basic fundamentals to underachievers. It's all about the OGT test because we are judged on those scores. It's a flawed system. Here's a link to the released OGT's. I think you will be surprised. We should have all the politicians that support the graduation test take it and post their scores in public. I gaurandamntee you they wouldn't pass the math or science portion the first time.

http://www.ode.state.oh.us/GD/Templates/Pages/ODE/ODEDetail.aspx?page=3&TopicRelationID=1070&ContentID=7835&Content=46111

I don't disagree with you. Every state has its standardized test that grades how that school is "doing" vs. other schools. I don't understand why the burden of proof is on the school. Let the weak students either sink or swim. Quit holding back the rest of the class.

If the state feels the need to give a test, they should test things that actually matter in the real world. Basic math skills, reading comprehension, writing composition. Memorizing facts and formulas for a test does not help you in the real world. Those things can be looked up in minutes if needed.

If citizens could educate their children in the manner "they" feel is effective and the State would get out of education...we would be fine. Teachers know how to relay knowledge. Leave it to them. Stop stiffling them with silly ass mandates that are a 1 size fits all solution(Government solutions).

I don't buy this approach. Most of the people who I have met that have been "home schooled" end up being social outcasts that can't communicate with other peers. The education they receive from a pure educational stance is usually much better, but how do you simulate real world interactions? You can't get that at home with mom and dad, as much as those that homeschool would like you to believe.

Im not an advocate of home school or any particlular type of school...I advocate free market solutions to education..be it homeschool,private,vocational..or whatever. My problem is with the government being involved.

I see where you are going, but you are making the inference that every parent will have the best interests of their kids in mind. If the government does not provide education, then obviously all schools will be either private (pay) or homeschools. Do you really believe that this will serve the best interests of kids in general and overall for a country in preparing kids for the future?

Let's take a poor family, who happens to have two hard-working parents who did not go to college (best case scenario). Do the parents homeschool their children (with their limited knowledge) or send them to pay schools (at the expense of maybe paying for rent or food)?

This is another example of where a market economy breaks down.

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:- Veterans (the overwhelming majority of homeless ...)

Machiavelli Wrote:Fo,

You ever read or seen the Lorax. Markets without regulation fail miserably. We are starting to reap the sewn seeds of deregulation today. The trepidation in today's stock market is of direct consequence of deregulation. Your preaching to the choir on the benefits of a market economy, but you always need regulation. I've been trying to come up with an example of the management of resources. I've thought about Atlantic sea bass populations that were severely threatened by over fishing by commercial fleets. You can't leave this up to the individual commercial fisherman. Greed will trump the common good. The individual will continue to wring out profit even by threatening the resource because he feels someone else will be over fishing too. Here in the Great Lakes walleye and yellow perch were once commercialed fished. Today, we have govt. regulate a sustainable harvest. This is a concrete example where govt. regulation works. I think we are going to pay dearly down the road for the deregulation of our utilities. We shall see.


On a related note. No one here has stated why we are the best country in the world. I've read excuses on why we are not. I contend the illegal immigrant problem is a direct result of our need to exploit cheap labor. When people say illegals do work American's won't do. They are right, but they omit one key component. They do the work American's won't do at that wage. I could fix the illegal immigrant problem tommorrow. Anyone who is found employing an illegal will be fined 150,000 dollars. Prosecute it and our problem would be fixed by Christmas.

But we don't want that do we. We want to talk out both sides of our mouths. We want the cheap benefits of illegal immigration, but we don't want the problems that cheap labor brings. (Undereducated, Underinsured, Overdiseased, etc. etc.)

So back to the beginning, under what metric, is America "The Greatest Country in the World".

Fo Shizzle Wrote:

blah Wrote:

Fo Shizzle Wrote:

blah Wrote:

Fo Shizzle Wrote:

blah Wrote:

Machiavelli Wrote:

Quote:An education system that does not reward being exceptional, but rather tells everyone that they are good and teaches to the dumbest student instead of forcing those students to improve or fail.

You really hit that one on the head. I spend 90% of my time teaching basic fundamentals to underachievers. It's all about the OGT test because we are judged on those scores. It's a flawed system. Here's a link to the released OGT's. I think you will be surprised. We should have all the politicians that support the graduation test take it and post their scores in public. I gaurandamntee you they wouldn't pass the math or science portion the first time.

http://www.ode.state.oh.us/GD/Templates/Pages/ODE/ODEDetail.aspx?page=3&TopicRelationID=1070&ContentID=7835&Content=46111

I don't disagree with you. Every state has its standardized test that grades how that school is "doing" vs. other schools. I don't understand why the burden of proof is on the school. Let the weak students either sink or swim. Quit holding back the rest of the class.

If the state feels the need to give a test, they should test things that actually matter in the real world. Basic math skills, reading comprehension, writing composition. Memorizing facts and formulas for a test does not help you in the real world. Those things can be looked up in minutes if needed.

If citizens could educate their children in the manner "they" feel is effective and the State would get out of education...we would be fine. Teachers know how to relay knowledge. Leave it to them. Stop stiffling them with silly ass mandates that are a 1 size fits all solution(Government solutions).

I don't buy this approach. Most of the people who I have met that have been "home schooled" end up being social outcasts that can't communicate with other peers. The education they receive from a pure educational stance is usually much better, but how do you simulate real world interactions? You can't get that at home with mom and dad, as much as those that homeschool would like you to believe.

Im not an advocate of home school or any particlular type of school...I advocate free market solutions to education..be it homeschool,private,vocational..or whatever. My problem is with the government being involved.

I see where you are going, but you are making the inference that every parent will have the best interests of their kids in mind. If the government does not provide education, then obviously all schools will be either private (pay) or homeschools. Do you really believe that this will serve the best interests of kids in general and overall for a country in preparing kids for the future?

Let's take a poor family, who happens to have two hard-working parents who did not go to college (best case scenario). Do the parents homeschool their children (with their limited knowledge) or send them to pay schools (at the expense of maybe paying for rent or food)?

This is another example of where a market economy breaks down.

The free market would find a way to educate everyone that wanted and education. Scholarships, internships and of course private charity,religion based and volunteerism. With the competition,choice and inovation of the free market the possibilites are endless. Also in a totally free market society...without government theft of wages...there will be less poor and those that still lag behind would have more income to dispense.