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- rickheel - 05-17-2004 01:46 PM

<a href='http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/05/17/international1027EDT0555.DTL&type=printable' target='_blank'>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...&type=printable</a>

- Schadenfreude - 05-17-2004 01:54 PM

rickheel Wrote:<a href='http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/05/17/international1027EDT0555.DTL&type=printable' target='_blank'>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...&type=printable</a>
$150 billion and 700 American lives for that?

:rolleyes:

- flyingswoosh - 05-17-2004 02:33 PM

Schadenfreude Wrote:
rickheel Wrote:<a href='http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/05/17/international1027EDT0555.DTL&type=printable' target='_blank'>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...&type=printable</a>
$150 billion and 700 American lives for that?

:rolleyes:
can you put a price on the things saddam did and had.

Also, are you now saying that there are WMD's?

- KlutzDio I - 05-17-2004 04:41 PM

Swoosh,

I've always maintained there were WMDs, but these were not a threat to the U.S. because we had Saddam under our watchful eye. Almost two-thirds of Iraq was under the allied no-fly zone. The no-fly cordon and the multiple satellites focused on Saddam gave us ample knowledge of when, how and where Saddam could be poised to attack U.S. forces in the region prior to the March 2003 invasion. We held such a watchful eye on Saddam, we'd have known before hand should Saddam have tried to deploy any WMDs.
There were always WMDs, yet we failed to find the majority of these weapons.
Also, the U.S. claimed we were invading to enforce a U.N. resolution on WMD's. The U.N. did not approve our action, so we invaded anyway, deeming the U.N. a "non-factor" or a body whose resolutions were not legitimate.
So we invaded Iraq to enforce a resolution from a body whose resolutions are not binding. Makes sense, right?

On what Saddam did, we helped by sending him the materials to make WMDs, and in the 1980s the Kurds were too close to the Soviets. When Saddam gassed the Kurds in the 80s, along with the Iranians, he did so with CIA approval.

No one is claiming Saddam was a good guy. We all knew he was a brutal dictator who had set up a Stalinist system of totalitarianism. We also knew Saddam's stranglehold on power was directly related to U.S. and allied aid to that nation through much of the 1980s.

What the problems is, in the whole march to war, centered on WMDs we failed to find, resolutions from a body we don't support nor agree with (the U.N.) and on the stabilization effort such an invasion would foment.

Iraq is less stable today than it was two years ago,and the region is less stable than it was two years ago. The Iraqis, by and large, do not want U.S. style or even British style democracy--it is too foreign to them, too culturally diverse than their culture will allow. They rejected democracy when the Brits tried to establish such back in the 1930s and 40s.

Most of all, the war was pushed and deemed necessary because Iraq was a threat the U.S. Actually, Iraq is more a threat to the U.S. today given we have almost 145,000 Americans in-country than it was when Bush, Rummie and Wolfie sent our guys and gals over there.

If the Iraqis held terrorist connections prior to the invasion in March of 2003, then those terrorist connections were not links to al-Quaida, but to other Islamist and anti-Western terror groups (which have existed in Iraq throughout the 20th century). Iraq is much more a haven to terrorists now that we have invaded than the nation was prior to invasion, and much more a haven to al-Quaida.

- joebordenrebel - 05-18-2004 01:53 PM

Hey, rick! I knew you'd be all over that WMD (weapon of minor distraction) report. Vindicated, at last! Feels good, don't it? Come on, dude. You can crow about it. Maybe we can even get bigolhawg to come back so he can admit he was wrong. :D

Mission accomplished! Which country shall we attack next?

- Rebel - 05-18-2004 02:47 PM

joebordenrebel Wrote:Hey, rick! I knew you'd be all over that WMD (weapon of minor distraction) report. Vindicated, at last! Feels good, don't it? Come on, dude. You can crow about it. Maybe we can even get bigolhawg to come back so he can admit he was wrong. :D

Mission accomplished! Which country shall we attack next?
Doesn't bother you where they came from, does it? Nope, that's not part of your agenda.

- rickheel - 05-18-2004 03:22 PM

See, thats the difference JB, I am not 3. Unlike some of the kids around here.

- HuskieDan - 05-18-2004 03:31 PM

RebelKev Wrote:
joebordenrebel Wrote:Hey, rick! I knew you'd be all over that WMD (weapon of minor distraction) report. Vindicated, at last! Feels good, don't it? Come on, dude. You can crow about it. Maybe we can even get bigolhawg to come back so he can admit he was wrong. :D

Mission accomplished! Which country shall we attack next?
Doesn't bother you where they came from, does it? Nope, that's not part of your agenda.
I thought we sold it to 'em.

- Rebel - 05-18-2004 03:45 PM

HuskieDan Wrote:
RebelKev Wrote:
joebordenrebel Wrote:Hey, rick! I knew you'd be all over that WMD (weapon of minor distraction) report. Vindicated, at last! Feels good, don't it? Come on, dude. You can crow about it. Maybe we can even get bigolhawg to come back so he can admit he was wrong. :D

Mission accomplished! Which country shall we attack next?
Doesn't bother you where they came from, does it? Nope, that's not part of your agenda.
I thought we sold it to 'em.
Yeah, whatever. I am talking about where, in IRAQ, did they come from? Bitching and complaining about where Saddam got his weapons in the 70's and 80's isn't constructive at all and Bush had nothing to do with it.

- HuskieDan - 05-18-2004 04:01 PM

RebelKev Wrote:
HuskieDan Wrote:
RebelKev Wrote:
joebordenrebel Wrote:Hey, rick! I knew you'd be all over that WMD (weapon of minor distraction) report. Vindicated, at last! Feels good, don't it? Come on, dude. You can crow about it. Maybe we can even get bigolhawg to come back so he can admit he was wrong. :D

Mission accomplished! Which country shall we attack next?
Doesn't bother you where they came from, does it? Nope, that's not part of your agenda.
I thought we sold it to 'em.
Yeah, whatever. I am talking about where, in IRAQ, did they come from? Bitching and complaining about where Saddam got his weapons in the 70's and 80's isn't constructive at all and Bush had nothing to do with it.
The master bedroom closet at one of Saddam's palaces. I guess the military never thought to look behind all his mistresses' shoes.

- KlutzDio I - 05-18-2004 08:53 PM

RebelKev Wrote:Yeah, whatever. I am talking about where, in IRAQ, did they come from? Bitching and complaining about where Saddam got his weapons in the 70's and 80's isn't constructive at all and Bush had nothing to do with it.
Actually RebelKev, complaining about where Saddam's WMDs came from is indeed constructive.

If we see the reason our nation became entangled in the whole Saddam mess to begin with, then maybe we would not become embroiled into future sagas with dictators we support or may support because it serves our national interest at the time.

Had the gov. not used the CIA to influence Saddam, had the gov. not supported and condoned the weapons sold to Saddam and had the gov. not supported Saddam with financial aid, then perhaps someone else would have risen to power in Iraq and we would not be in this mess.

Saddam took power as a result of a power-vacuum in Iraq, and he maintained power, for the most part, through direct U.S. governmental and CIA support. This was the foreign policy at the time, unfair and arbitrary for all parties involved. Our gov. continues to make the same mistakes now.

People need to learn the real reason we are in this mess so we might be able to prevent it from happening in the future with either another Iraqi dictator or some other evil son of a bee-atch in another nation. Therefore, it is constructive to find the evolution of a foreign policy mess.

Bush, Jr. was busy snorting coke and ruining business when his daddy, George H.W. Bush was head of the CIA. Nonetheless, Bush the younger is at fault because he launched an inappropriate and unjustified war based on false reasons cited for Saddam's evil-ness. Saddam didn't just wake up one day and think 'hey, I'll begin a WMD program.' Actually, it was the logical result of his dealings with the friendly U.S. gov. at the time.

Not to cast sole responsibility on the U.S. gov's shoulders, the Soviet Union, France and Germany were supporting Saddam, economically and militarily, in the seventies as was the U.S. gov.

RebelKev, I know this is hard for you, but I have confidence you can do it. Go down to your public library and bring your electric or water bill with you. Go up to the front desk and ask for a library card (the librarian will want to look at your D-L, and your bills to prove residency). After that formality is out of the way, ask her to direct you to books containing historical information (preferrable publication dates will be before Sept 11, 2001 to guard against reading anything politically charged) on Iraq and the middle east region. Check out at least three books you can handle, read them and then get back with us. :chair:

- joebordenrebel - 05-19-2004 01:02 PM

Do you *really* think Kev will find his way into a public library?

If he learns the truth, then he might be tempted to ::gasp:: flip-flop! Oh NO! The cardinal sin! :roflol:

- KlutzDio I - 05-19-2004 01:46 PM

joebordenrebel Wrote:Do you *really* think Kev will find his way into a public library?

If he learns the truth, then he might be tempted to ::gasp:: flip-flop! Oh NO! The cardinal sin! :roflol:
Yeah, he'd say libraries are "legacies of Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin" because they give out books to anyone who resides in a county or state's library plan. He'd decry libraries as the fundamental vehicle for spreading communism when what we should really do is make information available to the highest bidder.

And if'n yews don't lahk it, then yew kin git out! :laugh: